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RE: Face Slapping. In and Outside the bedroom... - 3/15/2014 9:19:05 PM

sexyred1

Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
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I never let anyone slap my face or choke me. Those are off limits.

My ex did both and while I ended up kind of liking light slaps, I never trusted him to not damage me, so that stopped.

I never liked choking and one of the myriad reasons I broke up with him was that he kept trying to choke me, which is not acceptable.

(in reply to pg4g)

Post #: 81

RE: Face Slapping. In and Outside the bedroom... - 3/15/2014 9:37:23 PM

pg4g

Posts: 296
Joined: 12/31/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I really worry about people who are so distrusting of every person that they cannot be in a healthy relationship because they think that everyone is going to hurt them.

Sometimes victims of abuse never get over their lack of ability to trust. I can have a very fulfilling relationship, but every 6 months or so, I freak out and try to break it off because I can't handle the risks he'll hurt me emotionally. I have seen psychologists about this, yes.

_____________________________

Switching: the best of both worlds.

It ain’t about how hard you hit. It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. - Rocky Balboa

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 82

RE: Face Slapping. In and Outside the bedroom... - 3/15/2014 9:50:24 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I really worry about people who are so distrusting of every person that they cannot be in a healthy relationship because they think that everyone is going to hurt them.

Sometimes victims of abuse never get over their lack of ability to trust. I can have a very fulfilling relationship, but every 6 months or so, I freak out and try to break it off because I can't handle the risks he'll hurt me emotionally. I have seen psychologists about this, yes.

Well then there ya go. Until you work through that issue, then this will always be the monkey on your back.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to pg4g)

Post #: 83

RE: Face Slapping. In and Outside the bedroom... - 3/15/2014 9:56:03 PM

pg4g

Posts: 296
Joined: 12/31/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g

Sometimes victims of abuse never get over their lack of ability to trust. I can have a very fulfilling relationship, but every 6 months or so, I freak out and try to break it off because I can't handle the risks he'll hurt me emotionally. I have seen psychologists about this, yes.

Well then there ya go. Until you work through that issue, then this will always be the monkey on your back.

I get that, I only asked out of a matter of curiosity how you'd handle the situation, and your answer seemed to be "never let yourself get into a situation where that would be the case" which is cool.

Considering some of the people jumping into M/s after three minutes of knowing each other, many may not be so wise.

< Message edited by pg4g -- 3/15/2014 9:58:36 PM >

_____________________________

Switching: the best of both worlds.

It ain’t about how hard you hit. It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. - Rocky Balboa

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 84

RE: Face Slapping. In and Outside the bedroom... - 3/15/2014 10:37:19 PM

UllrsIshtar

Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g

I'm curious, though, LW... what if he's angry about something, blaming you, and it isn't your fault?

I'm certainly not judging, but it's one of my biggest worries with punishment dynamics, and with hitting in anger etc. Though, I'll be honest, that's tainted by my father, who would find things to blame me on to abuse me, so I can't get into punishment, slapping, domestic stuff like that. It's just a concern I have that a dominant/master may... misuse their authority. But that's just me.

There is a huge difference between being in a relationship with a man whom you trust, and who consensually takes charge of you, and who is accountable, but who is capable of making mistakes. And being in a relationship with a man whom you don't trust, non-consensually beats the crap out of you, isn't accountable, and holds himself to be infallible.

LW know that she can stop Kana at any time merely by withdrawing consent. She may not ever do this, or may currently not even fully capable of doings so because of how devoted she is to him, but she knows that IF she ever does Kana will stop in the blink of an eye.
She also knows that if he ever hits her in a way that he didn't intend, and he unintentionally does real physical or emotional damage to her, he'll care enough about her wellbeing to try to make it right again.

Being beaten in the face in such a dynamic -even if the Top could make a mistake and accidentally blame you for his faults- is completely different from being in an abusive relationship. LW doesn't have feelings of powerlessness associated with Kana hitting her.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to pg4g)

Post #: 85

RE: Face Slapping. In and Outside the bedroom... - 3/15/2014 10:44:15 PM

pg4g

Posts: 296
Joined: 12/31/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

Yeah, I get that, thanks. Sorry, still a part of me remembering my mother and myself being beaten. Stuff like that outside a scene can cause me concern, even when not warranted. Sorry again.

[Edited for clarity]

< Message edited by pg4g -- 3/15/2014 10:50:15 PM >

_____________________________

Switching: the best of both worlds.

It ain’t about how hard you hit. It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. - Rocky Balboa

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

Post #: 86

RE: Face Slapping. In and Outside the bedroom... - 3/16/2014 6:25:40 AM

Kana

Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I really worry about people who are so distrusting of every person that they cannot be in a healthy relationship because they think that everyone is going to hurt them.

Sometimes victims of abuse never get over their lack of ability to trust. I can have a very fulfilling relationship, but every 6 months or so, I freak out and try to break it off because I can't handle the risks he'll hurt me emotionally. I have seen psychologists about this, yes.

Ya know,if a man does something shitty to her, hurts her real bad, shame on him.
If it still hurts a decade later, shame on her.

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to pg4g)

Post #: 87

RE: Face Slapping. In and Outside the bedroom... - 3/16/2014 7:25:51 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Ya know,if a man does something shitty to her, hurts her real bad, shame on him.
If it still hurts a decade later, shame on her.

I strongly disagree with the above. It is not the hurt that is the problem. It is what a person does with it that makes the different. I have yet to met a single person that has had trauma in their life that was caused with intent by another person that do not feel hurt from the memories of it even decades later. But some of those people allow themselves to stay a victim and let the the experiences and pain hold them back from a thriving and healthy life. While others don't allow it to stop them.

The following is a writing I did that I think applies here

=======================

Strong individuals make strong relationships and all the issues and problems one sees on the journey are just opportunities to show that strength.

Strength is a subjective value within the context of a relationship. I can express the qualities I see in a person as being strong or of admirable character. But measuring those values in a quantifiable way is not so easy. Even if one can measure the value what quantity would establish it as strong as compare to moderate or weak. But regardless of it subjectivity I am rather clear on my ability to determine what is strong in character to me. Be it ones integrity or self awareness or ones ability to protect their personal boundaries. I am also content In appreciating the character and values that are important to me to build a strong relationship. For example, Emotional intelligence and self regulation are high values for me and the life I live and are much more important than one with an adventurous spirit. I need strong people in my life and people with the strengths that I value most. I am blessed to have that in my girls.

My journey has been blessed with those I walk with My greatest difficulties in life has been the result of having the wrong people in my life. With all the years behind me and my girls, never has an issue or a problem given me concern for our relationship. It hasn't been always easy problems and issues but we always came together to solve them. Never have we walked detached or in isolation from the others of the family as we try to solve our individual problems and issues. We always turned to each other and our strengths came to bare on the issue at hand. It has not always been habit to turn to each other. It wasn't as if we blindly trusted and jumped into the pool together. We constantly had to make the decision to love until time and again we proved to our doubts what our hearts already knew. Without all the problems and issues of life I doubt very much that the strength of our bond would be as strong as it is.

Fredrick Nietzsche said " That which does not kill us makes us stronger". Incomplete In my view. Many a person have been abused and violated in this world and some remain victims long after the deed has been done. They carry their open wounds for everyone to see and we look on them with pity and sadness for the pain they carry. But others we are inspired by their strentgh to persevere and thrive in the face of adversity. They are not victims that have been conquered but heros that have triumphed over the crosses thrusted upon them. Nietzsche you have it wrong. I say, what makes us stronger is persevering and thriving in the face of adversity. We choose to be stronger in our adversities or we choose to weakened.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 3/16/2014 7:29:24 AM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Kana)

Post #: 88

RE: Face Slapping. In and Outside the bedroom... - 3/16/2014 8:09:15 AM

Kana

Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

But some of those people allow themselves to stay a victim and let the the experiences and pain hold them back from a thriving and healthy life. While others don't allow it to stop them.

Exactly.

I think we're saying the same thing here KoM, just in different ways.
Perhaps I should have said "haunts" or "drives" instead of "hurt."
Whatever happened, it may still hurt,so but if still dictates a decade later, then that person has some healing to do, and that's on them.

I'm not trying to be an ass here. Look, this is life. We all get hurt. We all get mangled. Some of it might seem more traumatic, some maybe less. But to the person who's experiencing it, it's the most important hurt in the world, because it's theirs.
But those traumas, they aren't supposed to define us. We learn, we grow, we heal the best we can and move on. The best of us use those experiences, that trauma to help others.
But cut it however you like, we are all responsible for our own healing...and that we do.

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 89

RE: Face Slapping. In and Outside the bedroom... - 3/16/2014 8:23:06 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
Ya know,if a man does something shitty to her, hurts her real bad, shame on him.
If it still hurts a decade later, shame on her.

Forgiving is not the same as forgetting.

And there is such a thing as PTSD, which causes things to still hurt when triggered a decade later.

Beyond that, PG was talking about trauma inflicted at an age when the brain is still growing, which can cause permanent problems. Not repairable by any amount of therapy because it isn't so much a psychological problem as a brain problem.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to Kana)

Post #: 90

RE: Face Slapping. In and Outside the bedroom... - 3/16/2014 8:25:04 AM

Kana

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Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline

That's a whole different ballgame.
Genuine mental problems changes the picture entirely.

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 91

RE: Face Slapping. In and Outside the bedroom... - 3/16/2014 9:01:32 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g
Considering some of the people jumping into M/s after three minutes of knowing each other, many may not be so wise.

In all fairness, if I let this statement set the bar for activities that I choose to indulge in, I'd never be engaging in anything that was related to BDSM.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to pg4g)

Post #: 92

RE: Face Slapping. In and Outside the bedroom... - 3/16/2014 12:52:34 PM

CatharsisKentUK

Posts: 31
Joined: 2/22/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

There is a huge difference between being in a relationship with a man whom you trust, and who consensually takes charge of you, and who is accountable, but who is capable of making mistakes. And being in a relationship with a man whom you don't trust, non-consensually beats the crap out of you, isn't accountable, and holds himself to be infallible.

LW know that she can stop Kana at any time merely by withdrawing consent. She may not ever do this, or may currently not even fully capable of doings so because of how devoted she is to him, but she knows that IF she ever does Kana will stop in the blink of an eye.
She also knows that if he ever hits her in a way that he didn't intend, and he unintentionally does real physical or emotional damage to her, he'll care enough about her wellbeing to try to make it right again.

Being beaten in the face in such a dynamic -even if the Top could make a mistake and accidentally blame you for his faults- is completely different from being in an abusive relationship. LW doesn't have feelings of powerlessness associated with Kana hitting her.

This.

With my ex I explored as deep as I have gone so far in the realms of humiliation, objectification etc and face-slapping was a powerful tool at his disposal. BUT he always had implicit consent. It's one of the reasons I retained my safeword, because otherwise it's very difficult to engage in play where consent can seem dubious or even non-existent at various points during the scene.

When I have safeworded, he has gone from a snarling, mocking, violent sexual predator to a shocked little bitch shredding bondage, holding me gently and asking me what the fuck happened in the space of a single second. THAT is the fundamental difference between WIITWD and domestic abuse.

Slight tangent I guess, my apologies.

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

Post #: 93

RE: Face Slapping. In and Outside the bedroom... - 3/16/2014 1:09:00 PM

CatharsisKentUK

Posts: 31
Joined: 2/22/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Ya know,if a man does something shitty to her, hurts her real bad, shame on him.
If it still hurts a decade later, shame on her.

I get what you're saying here and we all have to take responsibility for our own wellbeing, I get that. BDSM is not a reasonable substitute for therapy. Abuse survivors should do whatever they can to minimise the abuser's impact on the rest of their lives.

It's not always so simple on the face of it though, especially when you're talking about play that can prove to be triggering for some people.

I engage in the play I enjoy specifically because it's triggering. I couldn't even tell you why. I fought against my kinks for many years because I new damn well they were a byproduct of my dysfunctional childhood and treatment I received from adults while a small child. I saw it as something wrong with me that needed fixing. Now, in my mid 30s and having sought any amount of 'help' from traditional avenues, I'm throwing my hands up and going with what works. Emotional, physical and sexual masochism are the soul and centre of my wasted heart now and only when I'm regularly on the receiving end of that triggering kind of play am I ever really centred, grounded or for want of a better word, happy. I've given up on the why of it and I engage in what I do with my eyes open to the inherent dysfunctionality of it and the potential for psychological fallout. But ultimately, these are my chances to take and I'm extremely risk aware.

Yes, I know my shitty stuff happened in childhood and that makes it more scarring but I can quite easily imagine that someone on the receiving end of systematic domestic abuse as an adult can wind up equally scarred. And if I haven't shaken it off in over 20 years, how are they supposed to?

(in reply to Kana)

Post #: 94

RE: Face Slapping. In and Outside the bedroom... - 3/16/2014 1:44:21 PM

UllrsIshtar

Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g

Yeah, I get that, thanks. Sorry, still a part of me remembering my mother and myself being beaten. Stuff like that outside a scene can cause me concern, even when not warranted. Sorry again.

Please don't apologize. It's a very valid question, and I'm glad you asked it.
The problem with the distinction between being beating in the context of Kana/LW and abuse is that from an outsider's perspective, there is no way to tell which is which. On the face they both look the same, because the actions in both can be so similar.

However, the psychology of the person being beaten is very different in both cases. In the case of a stable and mutually fulfilling M/s being so corrected would -at least in the grand scheme of things, if not directly in the moment- triggers feelings of security, belonging, and being cared for, while in an abusive relationship the feelings triggered would be exactly opposite.

Having been in a non-consensually abusive relationship before myself (though as an adult, not as a child) I understand your trepidation and struggle when it comes to assimilating physical corrections outside of play as a potential act of caring within a M/s relationship, instead of an act of violence.

Try to remember though that in an M/s such actions are a direct extension of the couple's faith in each other, and not something that the Dominant party imposes on the submissive, even if it may look as if that's what's happening. That's not to say that a couple who, for whatever reason- cannot, or does not want to, engage in such behavior doesn't have faith in each other, far from it. It's just that such relationships aren't possible without a tremendous amount of trust and security, making them -on an emotional scope- polar opposites of the emotional landscape of fear, distrust, and insecurity that an abusive relationship creates.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 3/16/2014 1:50:28 PM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to pg4g)

Post #: 95

RE: Face Slapping. In and Outside the bedroom... - 3/16/2014 2:10:23 PM

Kana

Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CatharsisKentUK

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Ya know,if a man does something shitty to her, hurts her real bad, shame on him.
If it still hurts a decade later, shame on her.

I get what you're saying here and we all have to take responsibility for our own wellbeing, I get that. BDSM is not a reasonable substitute for therapy. Abuse survivors should do whatever they can to minimise the abuser's impact on the rest of their lives.

It's not always so simple on the face of it though, especially when you're talking about play that can prove to be triggering for some people.

I engage in the play I enjoy specifically because it's triggering. I couldn't even tell you why. I fought against my kinks for many years because I new damn well they were a byproduct of my dysfunctional childhood and treatment I received from adults while a small child. I saw it as something wrong with me that needed fixing. Now, in my mid 30s and having sought any amount of 'help' from traditional avenues, I'm throwing my hands up and going with what works. Emotional, physical and sexual masochism are the soul and centre of my wasted heart now and only when I'm regularly on the receiving end of that triggering kind of play am I ever really centred, grounded or for want of a better word, happy. I've given up on the why of it and I engage in what I do with my eyes open to the inherent dysfunctionality of it and the potential for psychological fallout. But ultimately, these are my chances to take and I'm extremely risk aware.

Yes, I know my shitty stuff happened in childhood and that makes it more scarring but I can quite easily imagine that someone on the receiving end of systematic domestic abuse as an adult can wind up equally scarred. And if I haven't shaken it off in over 20 years, how are they supposed to?

I've already differentiated between a genuine mental disorder and a fear so I won't go there again.
I will say though that one of the gals I played with came from an abusive house, had a father with Post Vietnam PTSD.
Certain things just flipped her out, quick shifts into anger, screaming, and yes, face slapping. She could take, hell liked, lots of hard play, but come near her face, or God help you, her neck and she just locked up, froze into an almost catatonic state that took lots of time and lots and lots of soothing to pull her out of.
Needless to say, I just dropped those things from my arsenal, made like a good marine and improvised, adapted and overcame.
You play the hand you're dealt,best as ya can. That's all I ever ask of anyone.
And, before anyone asks, yeah, I had her go to counseling re the abuse issues, got involved in some support groups.
it was a good deal all in all. She, and I, grew from the experience.
Not so much as M/S, but as people.

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to CatharsisKentUK)

Post #: 96

RE: Face Slapping. In and Outside the bedroom... - 3/16/2014 2:12:05 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

I just think a lot of people hide behind their traumas as an excuse not to move on, to always live in fear, instead of learning to overcome it. I'm sorry but this "it happened as a child" or "it's a mental issue" , etc...is just that.....an excuse, a crutch. We either make it our priority to overcome it and live our lives with joy or wallow in it and live our lives in self defeat.

Yeah I know, I'll get attacked for this view but nothing new there. Go for it.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

Post #: 97

RE: Face Slapping. In and Outside the bedroom... - 3/16/2014 2:17:44 PM

pg4g

Posts: 296
Joined: 12/31/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I just think a lot of people hide behind their traumas as an excuse not to move on, to always live in fear, instead of learning to overcome it. I'm sorry but this "it happened as a child" or "it's a mental issue" , etc...is just that.....an excuse, a crutch. We either make it our priority to overcome it and live our lives with joy or wallow in it and live our lives in self defeat.

Yeah I know, I'll get attacked for this view but nothing new there. Go for it.

I certainly don't wallow in it. All I'm saying is hearing that is a trigger for my natural instinct to protect. And really, I have no right, nor do I know your circumstance, so I asked, but I overstepped, and I'm sorry.

I can have a happy life and I push on. Some freak outs do happen tho, and I try to work past them. My guy is beyond understanding about this. I'm extremely lucky to have him.

_____________________________

Switching: the best of both worlds.

It ain’t about how hard you hit. It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. - Rocky Balboa

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 98

RE: Face Slapping. In and Outside the bedroom... - 3/17/2014 12:26:41 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

The difficulty...as Knight, and others have pointed out, is being the "visitor from the outside looking in". I was with a submissive for awhile who...through her own needs and desires...took me down some very dark pathways. That was good in that it opened me up to a darker side of myself without killing the "nurturer" in me. To the submissive I had been involved with before...even with her knowledge and experience...it would have looked like I had become an abusive dominant. BUT...there was heavy, HEAVY discussion before we ever went down those roads and a lot of communication going down on our initial forays. Anger never came into it...nor could being upset...I still could not bring myself to strike her when I was angry because of my own past issues and she was good with that. But our interaction outside of that emotional arena was twisty...and I liked it. Only time I have gone that dark but it was good for me...added to the Creativity that is the magnificent me.

(in reply to pg4g)

Post #: 99

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