RE: Obama Care (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


kalikshama -> RE: Obama Care (3/26/2014 1:22:47 PM)

quote:

Total per capita healthcare spending in Massachusetts is $9,278, the HIGHEST in the country and well above the $6,815 national average. That says it all.


Mississippi's per capita healthcare spending is $6,571 and they have the highest infant mortality rate.

We have world-renowned hospitals in Massachusetts and from what I hear Mass Health has some crazy-good coverage for the elderly, mentally ill and disabled.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/nov/03/mitt-romney/mitt-romney-says-health-insurance-more-expensive-m/

So, overall, health insurance costs are indeed higher in Massachusetts than almost anywhere else.

Still, it’s worth noting that while Massachusetts’ universal health care plan is likely a factor in producing high costs, it’s probably not the only factor.

The state ranked second nationally in per capita personal income in 2012 (Connecticut was first), and it ranked eighth in the nation in highest cost of living. Whenever residents of a state make a lot of income and pay a lot for consumer goods generally, it’s likely to follow that health care will be relatively expensive as well.

In addition, Massachusetts ranks first among states in health care expenditures per capita, and most of the rest of the top 10 consists of other relatively affluent, northeastern and mid-Atlantic states: Connecticut, Maine, Delaware, New York, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, and Pennsylvania. (The others are Alaska and North Dakota.)




Phydeaux -> RE: Obama Care (3/26/2014 1:28:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Total per capita healthcare spending in Massachusetts is $9,278, the HIGHEST in the country and well above the $6,815 national average. That says it all.


Mississippi's per capita healthcare spending is $6,571 and they have the highest infant mortality rate.

We have world-renowned hospitals in Massachusetts and from what I hear Mass Health has some crazy-good coverage for the elderly, mentally ill and disabled.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/nov/03/mitt-romney/mitt-romney-says-health-insurance-more-expensive-m/

So, overall, health insurance costs are indeed higher in Massachusetts than almost anywhere else.

Still, it’s worth noting that while Massachusetts’ universal health care plan is likely a factor in producing high costs, it’s probably not the only factor.

The state ranked second nationally in per capita personal income in 2012 (Connecticut was first), and it ranked eighth in the nation in highest cost of living. Whenever residents of a state make a lot of income and pay a lot for consumer goods generally, it’s likely to follow that health care will be relatively expensive as well.

In addition, Massachusetts ranks first among states in health care expenditures per capita, and most of the rest of the top 10 consists of other relatively affluent, northeastern and mid-Atlantic states: Connecticut, Maine, Delaware, New York, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, and Pennsylvania. (The others are Alaska and North Dakota.)


Exactly. This is exactly why one CANT make the assumption that because health costs are high in the united states that things are bad.
Its pretty much bass-akwards like everything dimocrat.

People earn a lot of money, so they choose to spend it on healthcare.




papassion -> RE: Obama Care (3/26/2014 1:55:46 PM)

Johnathon Gruber, an MIT economist, said, "one of the biggest dissapointments," despite having insurance people STILL show up in the emergency rooms with non-emergencies. Gruber was consulted on both Romneycare and Obamacare.

Since Romneycare was operational, they KNEW people were STILL using the ER as their PPO. That means when Democrats told us Obamacare would STOP the poor from using the ER for their primary care, they were LYING and knew it! So all the Libs who went on sites like this extolling the wonders of Obamacare were being USED by Obama. See, how easily you Libs are played?





Phydeaux -> RE: Obama Care (3/26/2014 2:02:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion

Johnathon Gruber, an MIT economist, said, "one of the biggest dissapointments," despite having insurance people STILL show up in the emergency rooms with non-emergencies. Gruber was consulted on both Romneycare and Obamacare.

Since Romneycare was operational, they KNEW people were STILL using the ER as their PPO. That means when Democrats told us Obamacare would STOP the poor from using the ER for their primary care, they were LYING and knew it! So all the Libs who went on sites like this extolling the wonders of Obamacare were being USED by Obama. See, how easily you Libs are played?





I provided quotes to previous studies that showed that expanding medicare availability did not

a). Improve the health outcomes for a large percentage of recipients.
b). Alter the pattern of ER usage.


Fundamentally, papassion, you are under the expectation that the dims didnt' know these things were going to happen. I think thats demonstrably false. The goal is / was

a). To move more people to govt healthcare.
b). Create a dimocrat entitlement.

To this end dimocrats will lie, break the law, and do anything required. This isn't accidental. This is just the dimocrats getting caught lying.




kalikshama -> RE: Obama Care (3/26/2014 2:24:46 PM)

Pardon my late appearance to the thread - are you two referring to the initial studies that showed an initial bump in ER usage in MA? Are you aware of the subsequent ones, which showed an 8% decline over time?

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mille/MA%20Outpatient%20ER%20Usage%20-%20Miller.pdf




kalikshama -> RE: Obama Care (3/26/2014 2:27:57 PM)

quote:

Exactly. This is exactly why one CANT make the assumption that because health costs are high in the united states that things are bad.
Its pretty much bass-akwards like everything dimocrat.

People earn a lot of money, so they choose to spend it on healthcare.


Sorry, let me clarify my point: I'm not saying that healthcare costs overall are not a problem, but that MA having higher healthcare costs in relation to Mississippi is not a problem if these higher costs result in better outcomes such as lower infant mortality.




Phydeaux -> RE: Obama Care (3/26/2014 2:45:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Exactly. This is exactly why one CANT make the assumption that because health costs are high in the united states that things are bad.
Its pretty much bass-akwards like everything dimocrat.

People earn a lot of money, so they choose to spend it on healthcare.


Sorry, let me clarify my point: I'm not saying that healthcare costs overall are not a problem, but that MA having higher healthcare costs in relation to Mississippi is not a problem if these higher costs result in better outcomes such as lower infant mortality.



I was not referring to that study no.

kaliskshama - generally I'm agreeing with you. People spend more money on healthcare in new york, than mississippi.
They make more money - they chose to spend it on healthcare.

However, you widely hear that american healthcare is broken because of the ridiculous amounts of money. We spend 16% of our money on healthcare. X country spends 8%.

This is just lies and damn lies via statistics.

Look. As you industrialize, you spend less money on food and shelter. You spend more money on recreation - and healthcare.

So yes, we are going to spend more money on healthcare than cuba. In cuba 70 percent of their income goes to food, and shelter. OF COURSE they're going to spend less on healthcare.....




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Obama Care (3/26/2014 3:26:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
However, you widely hear that american healthcare is broken because of the ridiculous amounts of money. We spend 16% of our money on healthcare. X country spends 8%.

This is just lies and damn lies via statistics.

Look. As you industrialize, you spend less money on food and shelter. You spend more money on recreation - and healthcare.

So yes, we are going to spend more money on healthcare than cuba. In cuba 70 percent of their income goes to food, and shelter. OF COURSE they're going to spend less on healthcare.....

A really stupid comparison.... the US and Cuba FFS!! Apples and oranges.

Now compare the US with just about every other first world country.
The stats don't lie.
You seem to get less per $ than anyone else in regard to healthcare and spending more than double to get it.
So yes, the US healthcare system is broken.




Phydeaux -> RE: Obama Care (3/26/2014 3:35:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
However, you widely hear that american healthcare is broken because of the ridiculous amounts of money. We spend 16% of our money on healthcare. X country spends 8%.

This is just lies and damn lies via statistics.

Look. As you industrialize, you spend less money on food and shelter. You spend more money on recreation - and healthcare.

So yes, we are going to spend more money on healthcare than cuba. In cuba 70 percent of their income goes to food, and shelter. OF COURSE they're going to spend less on healthcare.....

A really stupid comparison.... the US and Cuba FFS!! Apples and oranges.

Now compare the US with just about every other first world country.
The stats don't lie.
You seem to get less per $ than anyone else in regard to healthcare and spending more than double to get it.
So yes, the US healthcare system is broken.




Really.
Thats a lovely unsupported opinion.

Tell me, what % of american healthcare is spent for elective surgery?

So now that we've dismissed myth #1. Tell me

Myth #2.

Lets strip away all the BS statistics that liberals like to use and lets actually measure health care.
Lets compare Britain (governent health care) vs. the US. I don't want to use canada, since many canadians escape to the south when they have medical complications.

So what are the life expectancies if you get

Thyroid cancer:
Breast cancer:
Prostate Cancer:
Lung Cancer:
Heart disease:

Do look those figures up and present here please. Because last I looked, of the 13 top causes of death, prognosis by symptom the us had better outcomes in 11 of the top 13 causes of death, covering 93.7% of the causes of death.

And thats the only real measure of health care.




thishereboi -> RE: Obama Care (3/26/2014 3:40:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

A system like Norway, Canada, UK and so on.  But thats for you folks, I got the VA already for me.   Now if I could get nutsackers out of there, it would work like it should.


How in the hell do you qualify for VA benefits? I am a vet and when I tried to use the VA system, I was told I had too many assets. And the amount of assets you must fall under is not huge!



It depends on when you were enlisted. My ex roommate joined, lasted about a year, decided it was too much work and told them she was gay. Not sure what the official discharge was titled but they threw her out and she still gets full medical benefits. They changed the rules in the early 80's I think and anyone who enlisted after that has a lot more conditions they have to meet.




mnottertail -> RE: Obama Care (3/26/2014 3:44:01 PM)

Uh, lets not do that, lets do this.

http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/world-health-review/united-states-vs-united-kingdom  and so on and so forth.  Not some unfounded nutsacker asswipe.




MercTech -> RE: Obama Care (3/26/2014 3:45:55 PM)

The big break is that health care costs are jacked to unaffordable levels for many.
But, if you don't have employer sponsored health care and have little money; the only options are volunteer charity clinics with very limited supplies and hours or going to an Emergency Room where they are forbidden to turn you away even if you are broke.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Obama Care (3/26/2014 3:48:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
However, you widely hear that american healthcare is broken because of the ridiculous amounts of money. We spend 16% of our money on healthcare. X country spends 8%.

This is just lies and damn lies via statistics.

Look. As you industrialize, you spend less money on food and shelter. You spend more money on recreation - and healthcare.

So yes, we are going to spend more money on healthcare than cuba. In cuba 70 percent of their income goes to food, and shelter. OF COURSE they're going to spend less on healthcare.....

A really stupid comparison.... the US and Cuba FFS!! Apples and oranges.

Now compare the US with just about every other first world country.
The stats don't lie.
You seem to get less per $ than anyone else in regard to healthcare and spending more than double to get it.
So yes, the US healthcare system is broken.




Really.
Thats a lovely unsupported opinion.

Tell me, what % of american healthcare is spent for elective surgery?

So now that we've dismissed myth #1. Tell me

Myth #2.

Lets strip away all the BS statistics that liberals like to use and lets actually measure health care.
Lets compare Britain (governent health care) vs. the US. I don't want to use canada, since many canadians escape to the south when they have medical complications.

So what are the life expectancies if you get

Thyroid cancer:
Breast cancer:
Prostate Cancer:
Lung Cancer:
Heart disease:

Do look those figures up and present here please. Because last I looked, of the 13 top causes of death, prognosis by symptom the us had better outcomes in 11 of the top 13 causes of death, covering 93.7% of the causes of death.

And thats the only real measure of health care.


I'm not picking any particular specifics, I'm talking healthcare costs per GDP in general.

I see you are in the habit of being either extremely naive or deliberately twisting the question.
You are quoting the figures, so I'd like to see a creditable source that is significantly better to gratify the more than double the cost.


ETA: I see Ron beat you to it. [:D]
Take a good long look and tell me where more than double the healthcare costs are justified.




kalikshama -> RE: Obama Care (3/26/2014 7:56:19 PM)

quote:

It depends on when you were enlisted. My ex roommate joined, lasted about a year, decided it was too much work and told them she was gay. Not sure what the official discharge was titled but they threw her out and she still gets full medical benefits. They changed the rules in the early 80's I think and anyone who enlisted after that has a lot more conditions they have to meet.


There are tiers to benefits depending on your income and percentage of disability (if any).

A few years ago, if one made under $30,000 or $40,000 one's copays for specialists were $10 and if one made over that line, they were $50. However, unless one had a certain percentage of disability, one was not qualified for dental at any income level.

They've changed the prices a bit since then, but here is some info on the tiers:

http://www.va.gov/healthbenefits/cost/copays.asp

papassion - you may be able to not fill out the financial assessment details, get enrolled, and just pay the highest level of copay (which is really quite reasonable - I paid $50 for dermatological procedures.)




Phydeaux -> RE: Obama Care (3/27/2014 12:17:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Uh, lets not do that, lets do this.

http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/world-health-review/united-states-vs-united-kingdom  and so on and so forth.  Not some unfounded nutsacker asswipe.



Right the typical liberal bullshit statistic. Life expectancy has to do with obesity, smoking, crack addiction, gun violence, military deaths and all kinds of absolute bullshit that has nothing to do with the quality of healthcare.

Whereas measuring the median survival after receiving a diagnosis *is* a valid measure of quality of healthcare.




Phydeaux -> RE: Obama Care (3/27/2014 12:22:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
However, you widely hear that american healthcare is broken because of the ridiculous amounts of money. We spend 16% of our money on healthcare. X country spends 8%.

This is just lies and damn lies via statistics.

Look. As you industrialize, you spend less money on food and shelter. You spend more money on recreation - and healthcare.

So yes, we are going to spend more money on healthcare than cuba. In cuba 70 percent of their income goes to food, and shelter. OF COURSE they're going to spend less on healthcare.....

A really stupid comparison.... the US and Cuba FFS!! Apples and oranges.

Now compare the US with just about every other first world country.
The stats don't lie.
You seem to get less per $ than anyone else in regard to healthcare and spending more than double to get it.
So yes, the US healthcare system is broken.




Really.
Thats a lovely unsupported opinion.

Tell me, what % of american healthcare is spent for elective surgery?

So now that we've dismissed myth #1. Tell me

Myth #2.

Lets strip away all the BS statistics that liberals like to use and lets actually measure health care.
Lets compare Britain (governent health care) vs. the US. I don't want to use canada, since many canadians escape to the south when they have medical complications.

So what are the life expectancies if you get

Thyroid cancer:
Breast cancer:
Prostate Cancer:
Lung Cancer:
Heart disease:

Do look those figures up and present here please. Because last I looked, of the 13 top causes of death, prognosis by symptom the us had better outcomes in 11 of the top 13 causes of death, covering 93.7% of the causes of death.

And thats the only real measure of health care.


I'm not picking any particular specifics, I'm talking healthcare costs per GDP in general.

I see you are in the habit of being either extremely naive or deliberately twisting the question.
You are quoting the figures, so I'd like to see a creditable source that is significantly better to gratify the more than double the cost.


ETA: I see Ron beat you to it. [:D]
Take a good long look and tell me where more than double the healthcare costs are justified.




Since you seem to have ignored my answer to this claptrap the first time around, I'll restate it.
% of money spent on healthcare does not measure quality of healthcare.
I'll say it again. Amount of money spent on healthcare is NOT a measure of the quality of healthcare. Would saying it a third time help you?

There are ample studies confirming this. Go read some.

Botox. Breast enlargements. Obesity treatment. Body Mods. % of healthcare figures includes elective surgery in the US. Whereas nationalized medicine in britain - doesnt.







Phydeaux -> RE: Obama Care (3/27/2014 12:32:36 AM)

To justify more government control of America’s health care, ObamaCare supporters frequently assert that access to and quality of health care in the United States are poor. However, the facts from source documents and medical journals show that Americans enjoy superior access to care compared to nationalized systems, the very systems put forth as models for ObamaCare — whether defined by wait-times for diagnosis, treatment, or specialists; timeliness of surgery; access to screening; or availability of medical technology and drugs. The separate issue of quality of care also demands analysis of objective data – and that means data from peer-reviewed medical journals, rather than subjective “rankings” and surveys by advocacy groups.

Even before medical care quality is compared, one should understand that a population’s lifestyle, behavior, and heterogeneity impact health outcomes and life expectancies, even when medical treatment is sound.

For instance, cigarette smoking and obesity are proven to increase risk for serious diseases, worsen outcomes from those diseases, and decrease life expectancy—even with excellent medical care. And their impact is huge.

Cigarette smoking alone accounts for about 443,000 deaths, or nearly one of every five, each year in the US, and is independently responsible for about 35 percent of all heart attacks, particularly fatal ones, and about 20 percent of strokes.

The rationale for President Obama’s radical transformation of the US health care system was incorrect. Combined with the fact that the law does not reduce health care expenditures, it represents one of the most tragic errors of misguided government in modern history.

Because smoking harms nearly every organ of the body, it causes or exacerbates many additional diseases, and it worsens outcomes from surgery and innumerable other treatments.

Obesity is now linked to greater risk of death from heart disease, stroke, diabetes, high blood pressure, all of the most prevalent cancers, and worse treatment outcomes after heart surgery, trauma and burn surgery, and transplants. It is not simply that rates of diseases are higher; the treatment outcomes are significantly worse for cigarette smokers and obese patients.

Why would these behaviors have particular impact on US health care rankings?

First, the prevalence of obesity is far higher in the United States than in all other OECD nations. More than one-third of Americans are obese, compared to 15.4 percent in Canada, 10.2 percent in Sweden, and 9.0 percent in Norway. Thorpe separately compared the US to ten Western European nations (Austria, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland) and found that Americans were nearly twice as likely as Western Europeans to be obese (33.1 percent versus 17.1 percent). It’s not a fluke that Japan, where only 3.4 percent of people are obese, has the greatest longevity.

Second, the United States harbors a far higher burden of cigarette smoking than other nations. Almost 70 percent of U.S. men born between 1910 and 1930 were regular smokers by age thirty-five. The US had the highest level of cigarette consumption per capita compared to all other developed nations over a five decade period ending in the mid-1980s. Americans are still significantly more likely than Western Europeans to be current or former smokers (53 versus 43 percent). Although some emphasize that smoking cessation rates are higher in the US than in Europe, the WHO was correct when it stated that “current prevalence of tobacco smoking is an inadequate predictor of the accumulated risk from smoking” because “the diseases caused by smoking, particularly cancers including lung cancer, occur after long delays...with an average time lag of twenty- five to thirty years.” Clearly, the high historical burden of cigarette consumption in the US continues to have impact.

Let’s compare data for cancer, heart disease, and stroke, the most common sources of sickness and death in the US and Europe, and the diseases that generate the highest medical expenditures.

American cancer patients, both men and women, have superior survival rates for all major cancers. For some specifics, per Verdecchia, the breast cancer mortality rate is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the US, and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom; prostate cancer mortality rates are strikingly worse in the UK, Norway, and elsewhere than in the US; mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher than in the US. Removing “lead-time bias,” where simply detecting cancer earlier might falsely demonstrate longer survival, death rates from prostate and breast cancer from the early 1980’s to 2005 declined much faster in the US than in the 15 other OECD nations studied (Australia, Austria, Canada, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Japan, the Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and UK). The inescapable conclusion from objective data is that US patients have superior outcomes from nearly all cancers.

Treatment for heart disease is also superior in the United States.

First, a comparison of the US to ten Western European nations (Austria, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland) showed that 60.7 percent of Americans diagnosed with heart disease were actually receiving medication for it, while only 54.5 percent of Western Europeans were treated (a statistically significant difference).

Likewise, US patients needing surgery for heart disease receive it more frequently than heart patients in countries with nationalized insurance. For example, twice as many bypass procedures and four times as many angioplasties are performed per capita in the US as in the UK. A separate comparison between Canadian and American patients showed the same pattern: of patients diagnosed with coronary heart disease, a higher percentage of US patients actually received treatment.

But is there evidence that Americans with heart disease actually benefit from receiving treatment more frequently compared to patients elsewhere? The answer is yes. Specifically, the US shows a significantly greater reduction in death rates from heart disease than Western European nations, the European Union as a whole, and Japan.

A separate study showed that Americans had a significantly longer five-year survival after acute heart attack than Canadians. The authors concluded that “our findings are strongly suggestive of a survival advantage for the US cohort based on more aggressive revascularization
.”

Another comparison study showed that fewer Americans than UK residents die (per capita) from heart attack despite the far higher burden of risk factors in Americans for these fatal events. In fact, the heart disease mortality rate in England was 36 percent higher than that in the US. These superior outcomes from US medical care are particularly impressive, considering that American patients have far more risk factors (diabetes, obesity, chronic kidney disease) that worsen outcomes and death rates after heart attack and after heart surgery.

The US shows a far greater reduction in death rates from stroke, the third leading cause of death and the leading cause of disability in adults in the US and most Western European nations, than almost all Western European nations and the European Union overall.

One reason for better results of stroke care is that modern therapy has been more widely available and was available years earlier in the US than in countries with nationalized insurance. Even given the disadvantages inherent to American patients (physically inactive, obese, and with high blood pressure – all significantly higher than comparison countries), studies still prove better medical care for stroke in the US.

What about treatment for chronic diseases like hypertension and diabetes?

To assess the quality of care for high blood pressure, or hypertension, we must look at two sets of data. First, once hypertension is diagnosed, is it treated or does it go untreated? About two-thirds to three-fourths of patients with high blood pressure in Canada and Europe were left untreated, compared to less than half in the US, with England having the lowest level of treatment, followed by Sweden and Germany, Spain, Italy and Canada, all far behind the US in a comparison study. In a different study, 88.3 percent of patients aged 18 to 64 in the US diagnosed as hypertensive received treatment, compared to 84.1 percent of the Canadians with hypertension, a pattern also seen in older patients.

Second, hypertension treatment in the US has been more successful in controlling blood pressure than elsewhere. One comparison showed that control in treated patients at 140/90 blood pressure, as well as at a higher standard of 160/95, was highest in the US, outperforming Canada, England, Germany, Italy, Sweden, and Spain.

In a separate analysis of over 21,000 patients already visiting doctors for hypertension in five Western European nations (France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and the UK) and the US, the best rate of success was in the US (63 percent), compared with 31 percent to 46 percent of patients in the European countries. The facts show that more successful blood pressure control was seen in the US for both women and men under treatment, differences that are statistically significant. As for why, the conclusion by the authors is not surprising: “lower treatment thresholds and more intensive treatment contribute to better hypertension control in the United States” …that is, because of the delivery of better medical care in America.

No disease has more far-reaching and more serious consequences than diabetes, a disease near the top of the list of the world’s most important health challenges, fueled by a relentless rise in obesity. The risk for death in diabetics is about twice that without diabetes, and disease outcomes are also significantly worse. While “type 2” diabetes (90 to 95 percent of diabetes) is preventable by an individual’s own choices (weight loss and increased exercise), medical care focuses on control of blood glucose to limit organ damage and complications.

Receiving diabetes care is the first concern, and then attaining control is the second. In 2011, the WHO determined that of seven countries, the US had the highest proportion of adult diabetics who were actually receiving treatment for their known diabetes, as well as for their hypertension and for their high cholesterol.

A 2007 comparison of Canadians and Americans showed the same -- a higher percentage of American diabetics than Canadian diabetics actually receive treatment. In the same WHO analysis, the US also performed best by several different quality measures, including blood glucose control, as well as effective management for all three key factors in diabetics (blood glucose, blood pressure, and blood cholesterol), approximately twice the success of England and Scotland. Here’s the bottom line: if you had diabetes, you were more likely to receive treatment and be treated successfully for the disease and the important risk factors for its serious sequelae in the US than in any other country studied.

Objectively, the world’s leading medical journals are filled with studies demonstrating the excellence of American medical care in comparison to other systems more heavily controlled by government bodies, the very systems held as models by those asserting the need for radical change to US health care.

These studies verify better survival from serious diseases like cancer, better access to treatment for the most important chronic diseases, and superior control of diseases that cause disability and death and are themselves significant risk factors for other deadly diseases … all this even though US life expectancy and disease outcomes are worsened because Americans harbor more risk factors than all other countries.

Yet another inescapable conclusion is evident – the rationale for President Obama’s radical transformation of the US health care system was incorrect. Combined with the fact that the law does not reduce health care expenditures, it represents one of the most tragic errors of misguided government in modern history. All Americans, as well as children and adults throughout the world who benefit from US health care innovation, will be far worse off for it.

Scott W. Atlas, MD is the David and Joan Traitel Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and author of "In Excellent Health: Setting the Record Straight on America’s Health Care" (Hoover Press, 2011).




Phydeaux -> RE: Obama Care (3/27/2014 12:46:25 AM)

Yeah.. terrible healthcare...

[image]local://upfiles/11137/78B95456D0734765B923701013B4C56D.jpg[/image]




Phydeaux -> RE: Obama Care (3/27/2014 12:50:32 AM)

Often, proponents of nationalized health care will cite statistics indicating that the US lags with respect to life expectancy as compared with other industrialized nations that have some form of nationalized health care. Such comparisons are largely meaningless; life expectancy is not a meaningful metric of the quality of health care in a given country. As this white paper points out, in order to provide meaningful statistical analysis, a given metric must meet three criteria:

Any statistic that accurately measures health-care systems across nations must satisfy three criteria. First, the statistic must assume actual interaction with the health care system. Second, it must measure a phenomenon that the health care system can actually affect. Finally, the statistic must be collected consistently across nations.

To summarize, a meaningful statistic must:

Assume actual interaction with the health care system
Measure a phenomenon that the health care system can actually affect
Be collected consistently across nations

Life expectancy statistics do not satisfy this three-pronged requirement; in fact, it fails at least two out of three.
Assume Actual Interaction With the Health Care System

Life expectancy cannot be assumed to have actual interaction with the health care system.

Consider the 15 leading causes of death in the US (note: the order changes slightly from year-to-year, especially after the top 5 or so; however, the composition remains essentially the same):

Heart Disease
Cancer
Stroke
Chronic Lower Respiratory Disease
Accidents
Diabetes
Alzheimer's Disease
Influenza/Pneumonia
Kidney Disease
Septicemia
Suicide
Chronic Liver Disease/Cirrhosis
Hypertension
Parkinson's Disease
Homicide

Note that Accidents (including motor vehicle accidents), Suicide, and Homicide cannot be assumed to have actual interaction with the health care system (with suicide being a possible exception). In fact, when adjusting for such non-health-related fatal injuries, the US ranks #1 in the world in Life Expectancy - indicating that, for those causes of death that can be assumed to have actual interaction with the health care system, the US health care system is the best in the world.
Measure a Phenomenon that the Health Care System Can Actually Affect

Given the leading causes of death, life expectancy does not measure phenomena that the US health care system can actually affect.

Consider the three leading causes of death: Heart Disease (30%), Cancer (23%), and Stroke (7%) cause 60% of all deaths in the US. These diseases are almost entirely caused by behavioral/lifestyle choices (diet, exercise, smoking, etc.). Including Chronic Lower Respiratory Disease (4%), which is caused almost entirely by smoking, and Diabetes (3%), which is caused almost entirely by diet, and fully 2/3 of all deaths in the US are caused by lifestyle and behavior choices over which the US health care system has no control or impact. Also including accidents (5%), the US health care system has no control over or impact on more than 70% of all deaths in the US.

And what impact do these behavioral/lifestyle choices have on life expectancy? According to one study, the listed criteria have the following (negative) impact on life expectancy:

Smoking, Hypertension, High Cholesterol: 10 years
Smoking: 6.3 years
Employment Grade: 5.4 years
Diabetes: 3.6 years
Cholesterol: 1.9 years

Other studies have concluded that eradicating cancer deaths would increase life expectancy by 2.7 years, and eradicating risks from heart disease, stroke, and diabetes would increase life expectancy by 14 years.
Efficacy of US Health Care System: Cancer Survival

Further, to the extent that the US health care system may impact the leading causes of death, the US health care system proves its efficacy. Consider cancer: the US dominates Europe with respect to 5-year survival rates for overall cancer, as well as for specific cancers:
And apparently, the Europeans didn't include cancers discovered only upon death - which further skews the disparity. Clearly, to the extent that the health care system has an impact on diagnosis and treatment of cancer, the US health care system far surpasses the health care systems in Europe - and Canada, too, for that matter.
5-year Cancer Survival Rates, US vs. Europe

5-year Cancer Survival Rates, US vs. Europe

Recall, the argument in question here is whether or not life expectancy is a meaningful measurement of quality of health care. To preempt some arguments:

It is a matter of efficacy, not of efficiency; thus, health care spending per capita or as a percentage of GDP is irrelevant. The point is that the US health care system is more efficacious with respect to diagnosis and treatment of cancer - a result that provides one argument to refute the assertion that life expectancy is a valid metric of quality of health care.
Presumably, some of that increased spending in the US health care system goes to earlier and more frequent testing, which leads to commensurately earlier and more frequent diagnosis. Thus, the argument that the increased efficacy merely represents increased diagnosis rather than a quantifiable difference in quality of health care is tautological; as an argument, it is specious. With respect to cancer, timing of diagnosis is critical to successful treatment.

Meaningful Metrics of Life Expectancy

As has already been demonstrated, behavioral/lifestyle choices such as diet, exercise, and smoking are the primary contributors to the leading causes of death in the US. Other studies show a correlation between life expectancy and sanitation, clean water, income, and literacy rate. The CDC indicates that improvement in life expectancy in the 20th century can be partially attributed to vaccination, motor vehicle safety, safer workplaces, control of infectious diseases, decline in CHD deaths, safer/healthier foods, healthier mothers/pre-natal care, family planning, fluoridation of drinking water, reduction of tobacco. Yet other studies have identified marriage, religious involvement, optimism, and cleaner air as having positive impact on life expectancy.
Conclusion

Life expectancy is not a meaningful metric of quality of health care.

The health care system cannot be assumed to have an actual interaction with several of the leading causes of death in the US. More than 70% of the deaths in the US result from causes stemming from behavioral and lifestyle choices over which the health care system has no control or impact. For those causes of death upon which the health care system has some impact, the US health care system proves to be far more efficacious than the nationalized health care systems with which it is compared.

As my mother has always said: if it ain't broke, don't fix it - especially when the "fix" is government-controlled health care.




Phydeaux -> RE: Obama Care (3/27/2014 12:52:52 AM)

Graph failed

[image]local://upfiles/11137/79C772174F08407DA451EFD511DA7669.jpg[/image]




Page: <<   < prev  7 8 [9] 10 11   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.125