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RE: Ukraine - 3/18/2014 11:51:20 AM   
Artisculation2


Posts: 47
Joined: 10/7/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yet, no invasion of the Ukraine. Where do you get your news, from slobbering cretin network?




News flash. Crimea *is* ukraine.


*newsflash* no, not really. No more than American Samoa is the US.

The US leases GITMO in perpetuate. The Vienna convention on International treaties article 4 maintains that the US does have a lease despite the fact that CUBA has never cashed a single rent check. ([it] prohibits retroactive application of said Convention to extant treaties) The original was signed in 1903 and amended in 1934 which still governs the US leasehold.



Yes, the USA won't fuck off home, just like Russia won't fuck off home. The Cuban government doesn't have a say in the matter like the Crimea govenment doesn't. The USA and Russia are as bad as each other.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Ukraine - 3/18/2014 11:53:14 AM   
Artisculation2


Posts: 47
Joined: 10/7/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Ultimately the ruskies fucked themselves.....One of their number 1 export destinations is Europe.




Russia can just turn the energy tap off and Europe can do fuck all.

Europe will do nothing but make idle threats, which Russia know are idle.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Ukraine - 3/18/2014 1:44:01 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		True.

They can and they have.

But they have also sought normal relations and to be thought of as more than a thugocrisy.......and were making good progress. Thats gone.

Friendship and business is a two way street.

They will lose far more then they will gain.

Taking on Crimea financially,is a loss.

Politically,it`s a loss.

The loss of all future endeavors w/ America and Europe and friends is by far out weighed by a little chunk of land.

They will also get more and more sanctions if they continue.

I`m ok with the ruskies going back to no American cigarettes and never enjoying Europe for another half century.....

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Artisculation2)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Ukraine - 3/18/2014 1:49:28 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		But an important military asset.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Ukraine - 3/18/2014 1:58:30 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		We all though we we past that ....well most all.


We have our old farts here....pushing old paranoias , so it`s no surprise that Ukraine/Moscow has their own set of jerk-offs,pushing them too.


But a provocative cold war policy is much more costly than sticking to their agreements.


No one but the putin-ass-lickers and a few gopeers believes putin`s story that his troops are on a humanitarian rescue mission.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/18/2014 2:03:28 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Ukraine - 3/19/2014 9:26:37 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The President,working solidly with our European allies has instituted the harshest penalties against the ruskies..... since the the cold war....



Such strict sanctions that they are mocked in Russia, mocked in the ukraine, - and where even our allies are saying .. where is american leadership. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2014/03/biden-rejects-polish-suggestion-us-not-countering-putin/

The fact is that russia now owns crimea - on obama's watch.

The fact is that russia is now sponsoring separatist, groups in eastern ukraine, setting up for russian intervention there too.

Will russia do it - no one knows. But obama is taking no steps to prevent it.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 3/19/2014 9:29:26 AM >

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Ukraine - 3/19/2014 9:33:28 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		The fact is you are a card-carrying member of the flat earth society than denies global warming. If you can't get those facts right, it's hard to take you seriously about foreign affairs.

Next, if you really feel badly for the Ukraine, why don't you travel there and help man the barricades -- why do you need "big government" to do a job you can undertake yourself?

You want to offer American support for the Ukraine, well, get your butt over there.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 3/19/2014 9:35:46 AM >

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Ukraine - 3/19/2014 12:41:08 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

The fact is you are a card-carrying member of the flat earth society than denies global warming. If you can't get those facts right, it's hard to take you seriously about foreign affairs.

Next, if you really feel badly for the Ukraine, why don't you travel there and help man the barricades -- why do you need "big government" to do a job you can undertake yourself?

You want to offer American support for the Ukraine, well, get your butt over there.



First, they are not facts.

Second, that is exactly what Government is supposed to do, provide for the common defense of it's citizens and those it makes treaties with, so asking "Big Government" to do it's constitutional job is exactly what we should do and it's job is not health care coverage or Social Security for that matter otherwise it would have been doing that from 1776 get go.

Third, get your butt over there.

_____________________________

"We master Our world."

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Ukraine - 3/19/2014 12:44:45 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline
quote:

We have our old farts here....pushing old paranoias , so it`s no surprise that Ukraine/Moscow has their own set of jerk-offs,pushing them too.


I am thinking this is over the line. Yes, clearly meant to insult. Nobody deserves to see this treatment go on of legitimate posting. Just because you disagree does give you license to be insulting.

_____________________________

"We master Our world."

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Ukraine - 3/19/2014 12:55:30 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The President,working solidly with our European allies has instituted the harshest penalties against the ruskies..... since the the cold war....



Such strict sanctions that they are mocked in Russia, mocked in the ukraine, - and where even our allies are saying .. where is american leadership. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2014/03/biden-rejects-polish-suggestion-us-not-countering-putin/

The fact is that russia now owns crimea - on obama's watch.

The fact is that russia is now sponsoring separatist, groups in eastern ukraine, setting up for russian intervention there too.

Will russia do it - no one knows. But obama is taking no steps to prevent it.

How do you know this, O wise one?

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Ukraine - 3/19/2014 1:02:54 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		~FR~

The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances is a political agreement signed in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories relating to Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear-powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents.[1]

The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine as well as those of Belarus and Kazakhstan. As a result Ukraine gave up the world's third largest nuclear weapons stockpile between 1994 and 1996.[2][3]

Following the 2014 Crimean crisis, the U.S. and U.K. both separately stated that Russian involvement is in breach of its obligations to Ukraine under the Budapest Memorandum, and in clear violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity.[4][5] [6]


Source from Wiki

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Ukraine - 3/19/2014 3:46:04 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The President,working solidly with our European allies has instituted the harshest penalties against the ruskies..... since the the cold war....



Such strict sanctions that they are mocked in Russia, mocked in the ukraine, - and where even our allies are saying .. where is american leadership. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2014/03/biden-rejects-polish-suggestion-us-not-countering-putin/

The fact is that russia now owns crimea - on obama's watch.

The fact is that russia is now sponsoring separatist, groups in eastern ukraine, setting up for russian intervention there too.

Will russia do it - no one knows. But obama is taking no steps to prevent it.

How do you know this, O wise one?



Oh right. I should say .. no effective steps.

I mean .. he did spend two hours on the phone with putin. How do I know?
Well lets see>

1. Does Russia seem chastened?
Well, yes, if you count mocking as being chastened. In otherwords, no.

2. Has Russia stopped?
Hmm.. judging from the storming of the ukrainian naval base this morning.. no.

3. Has russia stopped laying the ground work for intervention in eastern ukraine ? No. Go read up on russian support for activist groups there.

4. Has russia returned the gas pipeline station it siezed in the Ukraine? No.


See unlike you, I actually read current events.

Do you really thing the dispatch of a single american destroyer to the black sea for naval exercises constitutes effective response. A single destroyer.. Really?
What exact message do you think that sends?

That we are pathetic, weak, have no response?

Me too.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Ukraine - 3/19/2014 5:00:54 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		But we already know what you or mittens would do instead.......



So we`re already way ahead of what any cons would be doing.....

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Ukraine - 3/19/2014 5:10:56 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

The fact is you are a card-carrying member of the flat earth society than denies global warming. If you can't get those facts right, it's hard to take you seriously about foreign affairs.

Next, if you really feel badly for the Ukraine, why don't you travel there and help man the barricades -- why do you need "big government" to do a job you can undertake yourself?

You want to offer American support for the Ukraine, well, get your butt over there.



First, they are not facts.

Second, that is exactly what Government is supposed to do, provide for the common defense of it's citizens and those it makes treaties with, so asking "Big Government" to do it's constitutional job is exactly what we should do and it's job is not health care coverage or Social Security for that matter otherwise it would have been doing that from 1776 get go.

Third, get your butt over there.



So which treaty did the US make to defend Ukraine with military force....... Its not hard, not even remotely hard.

Might doesnt makes right but facts make people look stupid.

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Ukraine - 3/19/2014 5:24:00 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Good one....


This is what the lunatic fringe thinks of their hero pootie.....


"Putin decides what he wants to do, and he does it in half a day, right? He decided he had to go to their parliament — he went to their parliament, he got permission in 15 minutes.”

Cavuto then awkwardly interrupted, noting that Putin’s move was “perfunctory” since Russia’s parliament is essentially a dummy rubber-stamp for the Putin regime. Giuliani completely ignored this point from Cavuto and continued.

“[H]e makes a decision and he executes it, quickly. And then everybody reacts. That’s what you call a leader,” Giuliani said.


Besides direct evidence of a hot man-crush......our cons are redefining what democratic leadership is with what a tyrant is.......and bashing our good President for not being a tyrant.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Ukraine - 3/19/2014 5:24:38 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

that is exactly what Government is supposed to do, provide for the common defense of it's citizens and those it makes treaties with, so asking "Big Government" to do it's constitutional job is exactly what we should do .

We don't have a defense treaty. Ukraine is not a NATO country.

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Ukraine - 3/19/2014 7:11:00 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The President,working solidly with our European allies has instituted the harshest penalties against the ruskies..... since the the cold war....



Such strict sanctions that they are mocked in Russia, mocked in the ukraine, - and where even our allies are saying .. where is american leadership. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2014/03/biden-rejects-polish-suggestion-us-not-countering-putin/

The fact is that russia now owns crimea - on obama's watch.

The fact is that russia is now sponsoring separatist, groups in eastern ukraine, setting up for russian intervention there too.

Will russia do it - no one knows. But obama is taking no steps to prevent it.

How do you know this, O wise one?



Oh right. I should say .. no effective steps.

I mean .. he did spend two hours on the phone with putin. How do I know?
Well lets see>

1. Does Russia seem chastened?
Well, yes, if you count mocking as being chastened. In otherwords, no.

2. Has Russia stopped?
Hmm.. judging from the storming of the ukrainian naval base this morning.. no.

3. Has russia stopped laying the ground work for intervention in eastern ukraine ? No. Go read up on russian support for activist groups there.

4. Has russia returned the gas pipeline station it siezed in the Ukraine? No.


See unlike you, I actually read current events.

Do you really thing the dispatch of a single american destroyer to the black sea for naval exercises constitutes effective response. A single destroyer.. Really?
What exact message do you think that sends?

That we are pathetic, weak, have no response?

Me too.







_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Ukraine - 3/19/2014 8:19:29 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		If you are so he'll bent for action, join the Ukrainian militia and help man the barricades.

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Ukraine - 3/19/2014 8:24:17 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

The fact is you are a card-carrying member of the flat earth society than denies global warming. If you can't get those facts right, it's hard to take you seriously about foreign affairs.

Next, if you really feel badly for the Ukraine, why don't you travel there and help man the barricades -- why do you need "big government" to do a job you can undertake yourself?

You want to offer American support for the Ukraine, well, get your butt over there.



First, they are not facts.

Second, that is exactly what Government is supposed to do, provide for the common defense of it's citizens and those it makes treaties with, so asking "Big Government" to do it's constitutional job is exactly what we should do and it's job is not health care coverage or Social Security for that matter otherwise it would have been doing that from 1776 get go.

Third, get your butt over there.



So which treaty did the US make to defend Ukraine with military force....... Its not hard, not even remotely hard.

Might doesnt makes right but facts make people look stupid.



And who here has advocated America defending Ukraine? Is that the limit of your intelligence or imagination? I provided a list of possible responses earlier. None of them sending combat troops.

Some things I *would* consider:

Selling modern military equipment to Ukrainians on a lend lease basis, with or without trainers.
Send a task force to the black sea.
Cut off Russian access to the Internet. (I know.. not a popular idea here).
Put a ban on American oil companies participation in siberian oil field development. (Which the russians are desperate for).
Announce preferred trading status for Ukraine.
Remove prefer trading status for Russia.
Expel russia from G-8.
Expel the russian ambassador.
Pass the keystone pipeline and sign preferred LNG gas contracts with Ukraine.
Expedite the development of the poish radar and check anti missile site.
Suspend all visa's for Russians visiting the US.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Ukraine - 3/19/2014 8:27:00 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
What about you taking personal action joining up for the cause.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 60
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