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RE: Upcoming elections - America's hot button topics - 4/16/2014 8:36:38 PM

Phydeaux

Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Yes, the educated well read posters should all be ignored.

It seems to me that most here simply ignore posters they disagree with. When they aren't flatly character assasinating them.
It has nothing to do with how well read.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 4/16/2014 8:37:06 PM >

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RE: Upcoming elections - America's hot button topics - 4/17/2014 6:59:01 AM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

Well then enlighten us and tell us what conservatives believe

You are going to have to be a bit more specific. You do realize that they don't all believe the same things right? That would be like asking how a mistress likes her sub to dress. You will get different answers from all of them. Now they might agree on somethings but the will never agree on everything. But it's ok because as you grow older you will understand this concept more and come to understand that it isn't one side or the other that is evil. The politicians on both sides are going to lie every chance they get and the average guy on the street is going to keep trying to pay the bills and care for his family.

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RE: Upcoming elections - America's hot button topics - 4/17/2014 7:51:51 AM

Zonie63

Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Yes, the educated well read posters should all be ignored.

It seems to me that most here simply ignore posters they disagree with. When they aren't flatly character assasinating them.
It has nothing to do with how well read.

I think there are hotheads on both sides. I just think that if people get mad or resort to character assassination, it's just their way of saying "I disagree with you" and "I don't like you." Trouble is, there are those who feel the need to express those thoughts in more clever, elaborate, and sometimes even incendiary ways.

I think what gets lost in all of this are the actual "issues" which both sides claim to care so much about.

(in reply to Phydeaux)

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Post #: 103

RE: Upcoming elections - America's hot button topics - 4/17/2014 8:14:17 AM

DesideriScuri

Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
You need to take that first quote with the second quote to get the intent, Jeff. There will be no discussion at all from TK, Joether, Ron, etc. on what Conservatives believe because they already "know" what Conservatives believe. That they're wrong is incomprehensible to them.

In my experience discussing anything with an ideologue is not productive.

Precisely.

quote:

Discussing things with people of different opinions is but it needs to be a discussion with the intent of a mutual exchange of ideas and with any luck some personal growth. That's in sharp contract to pontificating bullshit.
So maybe you're right. There is little or no point in discussing conservative or liberal views with conservatives and liberals. There is, however, a marginal purpose in discussing both those ideologies with moderates and there's even more of a point when the it's not ideologies at all but simply different viewpoints oft-times based on different facts.
Funny thing is I was just watching a George Carlin video and my thought was, "Man, I could identify with "conservative" if that's what we meant by that label."
Even Phy his moments. He scored some points with me when he acknowledged, flat out, that freedom carries price tags and the freedom to carry a gun is gun deaths. That was a non-evasive answer which lets us get onto the real question, "Is that freedom worth the cost?" I happen to think it is but then again I've always sucked at the bleeding heart part of being a liberal.

We have shown, in the past, that our beliefs are truly not all that different. The fundamental difference between a liberal and a conservative isn't the end goals. It's how we get there.

All the horseshit claims by one side about the other side get in the way of discussion.

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RE: Upcoming elections - America's hot button topics - 4/18/2014 6:34:29 AM

Tkman117

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Joined: 5/21/2012
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DS I completely agree. The only problem is this: Conservatives (not you) these days are so extreme that any attempt at reasoning with them is pointless. You are what I call an "old conservative" not old as in age but old as in you're a sensible conservative that doesn't buy into the whole extremism BS of the Republican Party these days. However, the rhetoric which you say I'm spewing is actually happening. Members of your own party are standing in the way of science, women's rights, and marriage equality. To ignore that is simply rediculous. The libs are far from perfect either, but atleast their biased news sources aren't calling for the death of the president and the likes. Compared to them, you have a lot of positions which I could actually agree with, but with the liberals and cons so far from the moderate line, your positions are dwarfed by the actions and opinions of the extremists which now make up a large chunk of your party, which a lot of times taints people's opinions on you. I completely disagree with you on trickle down for example because capital is clearly being funnelled into the 1%, but that doesn't mean that you have other POVs that I or other libs wouldn't agree with. The way I see it is the cons need to move back toward the moderate line or they'll never win another election.

< Message edited by Tkman117 -- 4/18/2014 6:38:45 AM >

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RE: Upcoming elections - America's hot button topics - 4/18/2014 7:21:02 AM

DesideriScuri

Posts: 12225
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
DS I completely agree. The only problem is this: Conservatives (not you) these days are so extreme that any attempt at reasoning with them is pointless.

Stop right there. That's just more rhetoric.

quote:

You are what I call an "old conservative" not old as in age but old as in you're a sensible conservative that doesn't buy into the whole extremism BS of the Republican Party these days. However, the rhetoric which you say I'm spewing is actually happening. Members of your own party are standing in the way of science, women's rights, and marriage equality. To ignore that is simply rediculous.

Stop right there. I'm a Libertarian, not a Republican.

Disagreement isn't necessarily a bad thing in science's eyes. If the science is "settled," why don't the Climate Change models predict what's going on more accurately? Because it's not settled. The climate is changing. No one actually disputes that. What is disputed is that Man's part in it is large enough to make a big impact. There's the debate.

Women's rights?!? Obviously, you're talking about abortion and forcing others to pay for a woman's contraception. Abortion rights people view it as the rights of the woman, while abortion opponents see it as fetal rights. As far as contraception goes, it's not a woman's rights thing for her contraception to be covered by insurance (or for it to be paid for in any way by an employer). Does your insurance cover condoms? While I absolutely agree that Viagra, et. al., shouldn't be mandated as included in insurance coverage, it's not the same category as contraceptives, either.

Not all the Republicans are standing in the way of gay marriage, either. Now, here's where things get interesting, though. What right does government have to say a damn thing about marriage?

quote:

The libs are far from perfect either, but atleast their biased news sources aren't calling for the death of the president and the likes.

Will need a citation for that crap.

quote:

Compared to them, you have a lot of positions which I could actually agree with, but with the liberals and cons so far from the moderate line, your positions are dwarfed by the actions and opinions of the extremists which now make up a large chunk of your party, which a lot of times taints people's opinions on you. I completely disagree with you on trickle down for example because capital is clearly being funnelled into the 1%, but that doesn't mean that you have other POVs that I or other libs wouldn't agree with. The way I see it is the cons need to move back toward the moderate line or they'll never win another election.

You are making the mistake that "Conservatives" are Republicans (and that Republicans are all conservatives). Neither of those are true.

I don't think any politician should make any move towards anything (other than their true beliefs) to gain more votes. If a politician is willing to do that, he really doesn't believe that way, and is only paying lip service to gain votes. You may be perfectly okay with that, but I'm not. I would much rather know what the guy believes rather than what he'll say he believes.

Obama's "evolving" belief in gay marriage rights? He lied. Either he supported them before and lied so he wouldn't lose votes, or he doesn't believe in gay marriage rights now, but will say it to maintain the political advantage. One of those times, he was lying. Personally, I think he lied initially. I think he lied to not rock the boat too much, so it wouldn't hurt his election chances. That's the slimy shit that I hate about politics, and just about every politician is slimy in that same way.

I really do wish more Republican officials were conservatives. I think most of them are too liberal, fiscally. It's a tragedy when you have the vanguard budget guru (Paul Ryan) produce a budget from the "fiscally conservative" party that doesn't actually balance the budget in 10 years, but claims to do so in 20. And, that was Rand Paul's complaint. Rand wrote up a budget proposal that would balance the budget in 5 years. Fucking budget included increases in Defense spending, which should not have been. I wish he held the same beliefs as his father.

You have paid me some compliments, and I do appreciate them. But, it is still quite clear that you aren't open to actually discussing anything, but will continue to parrot the Liberal rhetoric in a ridiculous attempt to discuss things.

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