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RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 2:30:23 PM   
chatterbox24


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

This sounds fair. Would the bashing stop? Would there be forgiveness? By gones be by gones?


Nope.
All the while some ancient ecclesiastical perverts are allowed to rape children, the world will continue to bash and not forgive.
And why should they??

Some things are forgivable. The raping of children by those we should be able to trust is one thing that isn't.



That's to bad. If I wouldn't forgive, and my neighbor wouldn't forgive, and their neighbor wouldn't forgive, and my friend wouldn't forgive, your friend wouldn't forgive, and victims couldn't forgive, and people couldn't forgive themselves, pretty soon we have a whole world of unforgiveness and hate and all of us are no better then the committer who possibly was a victim too.
Where does it stop then? Whats the point? Why bother? Forgiveness is as much for yourself and victims is it is for the world.
That's when we can find peace. Its easy to hate, its a lot harder to forgive.
I have a scar on my arm, it I would have left the sore alone it would have healed, but I kept picking at it and picking at it. Now its just ugly.You know what I mean?
Anyway, I said my piece/peace. Its good for you, I ask you to try it sometime or then again you don't have too. I will even add a please. Have a good evening.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 2:35:01 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

This sounds fair. Would the bashing stop? Would there be forgiveness? By gones be by gones?
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

If you were given the opportunity to be the Authority I am quite curious of how you would want the Church to pay?

What would the best outcome be in your eyes? Lets pretend you are the one calling the shots, what measures would you take?

I mean the REAL MCCOY, THE REAL AUTHORITY.

The best outcome.

All future accusations would be turned over to civil authorities. Any that were verified would result in defrocking and excommunication.

All past accusations would be investigated by an independent group. Those that were deemed more likely than not to have happened the priest would be removed from all contact with children and put into therapy. The Church's assets would be liquidated as needed to assist in the therapy and medical needs of the victims as well as providing restitution.

All candidates for the priesthood would be psychologically examined to try and prevent any more pedophiles entering the ranks.



It's as fair as I, an atheist, could think of.

I doubt the bashing of the church would stop. The people hurt by the church have a legitimate grievance and they are angry.

As to forgiveness? Who knows.

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Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 2:41:28 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: altoonamaster

politesub53/if the church is so holy as you say how could they allow this to continue for years

Because of their sexual roots and traditions of Roman society, the RC church honestly believe that sex with prepubescent members of the same sex is not rape and is allowed.
Thus, the leaders of the RC church adopted the same principals of the ruling classes of the time.

However, the world has evolved a lot since then and such activity has been frowned upon for some centuries - even within the RC church itself.
But because it's a 'long-standing' tradition from inception, it has been allowed to continue unabated.

I eluded to this in an old post on a similar subject some while ago.



Constantly ignored is that the rape of innocence in the Catholic Church b happens well below the incidence in Western society.

This thread isn't about curing pedophile it's about Catholic bashing.
Proving yet again there is no less tolerant group than liberal pc nazis.


Bullshit.
This is about a giant wealthy organization that it has been proven was protecting and facilitating pedophiles over the course of decades without doing much of anything to prevent the rapes of children put into their care by their trusting parents. That same organization has prevaricated and evaded when the truth came to light and has even tried to avoid making amends to the survivors of the abuse claiming that the organization is bankrupt.

There simply is no other large organization that has done this.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
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RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 2:49:31 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

There simply is no other large organization that has done this.


Yeah, but there's no other organisation that has always had access to the Truth, with a really, really big capital 'T'.

(NB: If there's one thing that Catholic Church supporters and apologists for paedophile priests could do to help stop me and the millions like me spitting in utter contempt at them and their beliefs, it'd be: just don't spell the word 'truth' in relation to your religious ideology with a capital 'T' any more. It really, really is nothing but vomit-inducing nowadays.)

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RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 2:56:05 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: altoonamaster

politesub53/if the church is so holy as you say how could they allow this to continue for years

Because of their sexual roots and traditions of Roman society, the RC church honestly believe that sex with prepubescent members of the same sex is not rape and is allowed.
Thus, the leaders of the RC church adopted the same principals of the ruling classes of the time.

However, the world has evolved a lot since then and such activity has been frowned upon for some centuries - even within the RC church itself.
But because it's a 'long-standing' tradition from inception, it has been allowed to continue unabated.

I eluded to this in an old post on a similar subject some while ago.



Constantly ignored is that the rape of innocence in the Catholic Church b happens well below the incidence in Western society.

This thread isn't about curing pedophile it's about Catholic bashing.
Proving yet again there is no less tolerant group than liberal pc nazis.


Bullshit.
This is about a giant wealthy organization that it has been proven was protecting and facilitating pedophiles over the course of decades without doing much of anything to prevent the rapes of children put into their care by their trusting parents. That same organization has prevaricated and evaded when the truth came to light and has even tried to avoid making amends to the survivors of the abuse claiming that the organization is bankrupt.

There simply is no other large organization that has done this.


Most muslim states, including afghanistan, for which I provided statistics including more than 1000000 current cases?
The muslim religion?


You are entitled to spew your bullshit.
Expect to be called on it.

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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 3:03:18 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: altoonamaster

politesub53/if the church is so holy as you say how could they allow this to continue for years

Because of their sexual roots and traditions of Roman society, the RC church honestly believe that sex with prepubescent members of the same sex is not rape and is allowed.
Thus, the leaders of the RC church adopted the same principals of the ruling classes of the time.

However, the world has evolved a lot since then and such activity has been frowned upon for some centuries - even within the RC church itself.
But because it's a 'long-standing' tradition from inception, it has been allowed to continue unabated.

I eluded to this in an old post on a similar subject some while ago.



Constantly ignored is that the rape of innocence in the Catholic Church b happens well below the incidence in Western society.

This thread isn't about curing pedophile it's about Catholic bashing.
Proving yet again there is no less tolerant group than liberal pc nazis.


Bullshit.
This is about a giant wealthy organization that it has been proven was protecting and facilitating pedophiles over the course of decades without doing much of anything to prevent the rapes of children put into their care by their trusting parents. That same organization has prevaricated and evaded when the truth came to light and has even tried to avoid making amends to the survivors of the abuse claiming that the organization is bankrupt.

There simply is no other large organization that has done this.


Most muslim states, including afghanistan, for which I provided statistics including more than 1000000 current cases?
The muslim religion?


You are entitled to spew your bullshit.
Expect to be called on it.

Afghanistan? A dirt poor group of mountain tribesmen? You really just compared Afghanistan to the Catholic Church? And 1,000,000 cases really? In a nation of 31 million? Or is this more of your equating marriage under the age of 18 to pedophilia?

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 3:17:00 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: altoonamaster

politesub53/if the church is so holy as you say how could they allow this to continue for years

Because of their sexual roots and traditions of Roman society, the RC church honestly believe that sex with prepubescent members of the same sex is not rape and is allowed.
Thus, the leaders of the RC church adopted the same principals of the ruling classes of the time.

However, the world has evolved a lot since then and such activity has been frowned upon for some centuries - even within the RC church itself.
But because it's a 'long-standing' tradition from inception, it has been allowed to continue unabated.

I eluded to this in an old post on a similar subject some while ago.



Constantly ignored is that the rape of innocence in the Catholic Church b happens well below the incidence in Western society.

This thread isn't about curing pedophile it's about Catholic bashing.
Proving yet again there is no less tolerant group than liberal pc nazis.


Bullshit.
This is about a giant wealthy organization that it has been proven was protecting and facilitating pedophiles over the course of decades without doing much of anything to prevent the rapes of children put into their care by their trusting parents. That same organization has prevaricated and evaded when the truth came to light and has even tried to avoid making amends to the survivors of the abuse claiming that the organization is bankrupt.

There simply is no other large organization that has done this.


Most muslim states, including afghanistan, for which I provided statistics including more than 1000000 current cases?
The muslim religion?


You are entitled to spew your bullshit.
Expect to be called on it.

Afghanistan? A dirt poor group of mountain tribesmen? You really just compared Afghanistan to the Catholic Church? And 1,000,000 cases really? In a nation of 31 million? Or is this more of your equating marriage under the age of 18 to pedophilia?


Obviously you didn't read any of the links provided earlier. They document the more than 1 million current cases of basha boys which are pre-pubescent boys used for sexual purposes in afghanistan.

The practice is not confined to afghanistan it is endemic to the culture and the area.

So yea, if this is thread is really about ending pedophilia then I suggest we look at cultures and countries that are actually endemic and significant - such as afghanistan, as opposed to the catholic church.

As for your canard about "wealthy and powerful". Virtually all church assets are locally owned. And more than 5 dioceses have gone bankrupt due to judgements.
So much for "wealthy".

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 3:39:31 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Obviously you didn't read any of the links provided earlier. They document the more than 1 million current cases of basha boys which are pre-pubescent boys used for sexual purposes in afghanistan.

And this thread is specifically to do with the RC church and it's failure to protect the world from their own pedophiles.
We are not talking Afghanistan or any other religion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
So yea, if this is thread is really about ending pedophilia <snip>

No, this is a thread specifically about the RC church and pedophilia; not pedophilia across all religions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
then I suggest we look at cultures and countries that are actually endemic and significant - such as afghanistan, as opposed to the catholic church.

And that would be a different topic altogether - not this specific thread.

So why are you deliberately attempting to derail this thread yet again by going off-topic??

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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 3:44:41 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:


ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
So yea, if this is thread is really about ending pedophilia then I suggest we look at cultures and countries that are actually endemic and significant - such as afghanistan, as opposed to the catholic church.


I must admit, I'd come to assume that this thread was about the Catholic Church and how it's still aiding and abetting paedophiles, Phydeaux. However, in my defence, I might have been led woefully astray in this respect as a result of the title of this thread being "Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles".

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 4:01:52 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:


ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
So yea, if this is thread is really about ending pedophilia then I suggest we look at cultures and countries that are actually endemic and significant - such as afghanistan, as opposed to the catholic church.


I must admit, I'd come to assume that this thread was about the Catholic Church and how it's still aiding and abetting paedophiles, Phydeaux. However, in my defence, I might have been led woefully astray in this respect as a result of the title of this thread being "Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles".



To which my topical response is:

This thread is virulently anticatholic and bigoted. And the bullshit posted herein has been exposed as bullshit.

As in:

1). The original link said that the catholic church was backsliding on a commitment to root out pedophilia. I posted quotes of the new guidelines that said all criminal activity must be reported to local police in accordance to local law.

Ie., the original post was manufactured outrage and false.

2). Others showed that GotSteel has a history of anti catholic diatribes.

3). I pointed out that the putative cases of catholic pedophilia drastically under represent the case of pedophilia in western civilization, in the general homosexual population, and in muslim culture.

So.. what has this thread have left other than a bunch of catholic haters posting bullshit?

(in reply to PeonForHer)
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RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 4:28:06 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Laughable stuff from you about people posting hate and bullshit.


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RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 5:59:55 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


Obviously you didn't read any of the links provided earlier. They document the more than 1 million current cases of basha boys which are pre-pubescent boys used for sexual purposes in afghanistan.

The practice is not confined to afghanistan it is endemic to the culture and the area.

So yea, if this is thread is really about ending pedophilia then I suggest we look at cultures and countries that are actually endemic and significant - such as afghanistan, as opposed to the catholic church.

As for your canard about "wealthy and powerful". Virtually all church assets are locally owned. And more than 5 dioceses have gone bankrupt due to judgements.
So much for "wealthy".

I don't bother with off topic links posted as a diversion. Looking into it there is no way the number is 1 million. the tribe that practices pedophilia is not large enough for there to be that many victims right now. And yes, the various sources you provided plus several others I found were quite explicit that it is confined to the Pashtun tribe.

So what if the church has found a dodge to get around its financial responsibilities? Everyone saw through it. The Catholic church should not be trying to avoid making restitution to those it harmed but finding ways to make sure it doesn't keep happening.

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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 9:48:40 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
This sounds fair. Would the bashing stop? Would there be forgiveness? By gones be by gones?


Well we wouldn't be bemoaning this horrifying problem in the catholic church if the problem no longer existed. As for forgiveness *shrug* you're asking the wrong people you'll have to take that up with the survivors.

But what BM is talking about isn't about forgiveness for pedophiles. Threatening witnesses is quite different from forgiveness. Shipping the evidence back to the vatican so that the authorities can't use it is quite different from forgiveness. Moving priests out of the jurisdiction while lying about where they are going is quite different from forgiveness.

Personally I think it would be great if the church would forgive their pedopriests once they had been released from prison (why do we let them out again?) and make room for them in a monastery somewhere. That's what forgiveness should look like, it shouldn't look like an international organized crime ring.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 4/26/2014 9:50:05 PM >

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RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 9:49:04 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

Matthew 6:15 http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/6

But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.


It is only a matter of time before the people grow weary of the blessings of filth and will once again seek Holiness. As forgiveness of Sins is concerned the Roman Catholic Church is the most Holy. As promised by God its Sins shall be forgiven.

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 9:56:40 PM   
Trismagistus


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Status: offline 		Man, I remember when I gave up catholicism for lent once, it caused a quantum paradox that made me a baptist for some reason.

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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 10:06:57 PM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline 		Awhile back I used parallax as a way to describe how we appear to God. Given our distance, how far we are away from God due to our Sinfulness, the lowest Sinners and the most Pious maybe barely distinguishable from God's point of view. This viewpoint is consistent with Christian theology.

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Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/27/2014 2:00:43 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

Matthew 6:15 http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/6

But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.


It is only a matter of time before the people grow weary of the blessings of filth and will once again seek Holiness. As forgiveness of Sins is concerned the Roman Catholic Church is the most Holy. As promised by God its Sins shall be forgiven.

As far as the forgiving of sins goes, the Catholic Church appears remarkably forgiving of its own clergy when they lapsed into sin and raped children, as is their wont. Time and time again, the clergy were forgiven their transgressions and packed off to another parish/school where they lost little or no time in renewing their relationship with their transgressions of choice.

Is it sad or hypocritical or outrageous that the Church couldn't find the same generosity of spirit when it came to dealing with the victims of its clergy's depravity? It could be all three. Is it sad or hypocritical or outrageous that the Church appears totally bereft of the same generosity of spirit when it comes to dealing with women or gays or a host of other lay sinners? Again it could be all three.

What conclusions should be drawn about an institution that instead of exercising the generosity of spirit it preaches, chose instead to hide behind legal technicalities, ruthlessly exercised emotional blackmail of victims, silenced the victims, while all the time, the Church's hierarchy engaged in a criminal conspiracy to protect the rapists from having to atone legally for their sins?

Is it possible to discern the hand of an all-loving God exercising the kind of 'forgiveness' that forgives the rapists while punishing the victims even more, destroying numerous lives to the point of sometimes driving them to suicide?


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/27/2014 2:13:16 AM >

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RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/27/2014 2:36:03 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

.
Where does it stop then? Whats the point? Why bother? Forgiveness is as much for yourself and victims is it is for the world.
That's when we can find peace. Its easy to hate, its a lot harder to forgive.


From where I sit, it is up to the victims to forgive in the first instance. When the victims can see their way to forgiving, then the rest of us ought to follow their lead.

Speaking for myself, I will find it much easier to forgive when the Church persuades me that it has truly learnt the lessons it needs to learn from this sordid debacle. That means putting in place protocols that ensure offending clergy have to face the legal consequences for their offences, support and compensation for the victims so that what can retrieved can be retrieved and there is ample Church funded support for their recoveries. It will be the Church's responsibility to ensure that offending priests must never be placed in positions where they will come into contact with children. Perhaps lifetime exile to a Trappist monastery might be appropriate.

Above all it means the Church approach this issue openly and transparently, freely acknowledging the multiple failings of the past and as it begs for forgiveness, offers public proof that it has genuinely changed its way permanently.

A lasting consequence is that the Church has forfeited all right to moral leadership and authority on sexual issues. If it finds itself unable to bring its sexual morality into line with contemporary mores, it might have the good grace to remain silent.

In this respect it is encouraging to note that Pope Francis himself has said. "who is the church to judge [gays and other sexual minorities]?'

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/27/2014 2:55:14 AM >

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RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/27/2014 3:23:10 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

Awhile back I used parallax as a way to describe how we appear to God. Given our distance, how far we are away from God due to our Sinfulness, the lowest Sinners and the most Pious maybe barely distinguishable from God's point of view. This viewpoint is consistent with Christian theology.


Who ate all the pious ?

(in reply to BenevolentM)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/27/2014 4:09:52 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

Awhile back I used parallax as a way to describe how we appear to God. Given our distance, how far we are away from God due to our Sinfulness, the lowest Sinners and the most Pious maybe barely distinguishable from God's point of view. This viewpoint is consistent with Christian theology.


Who ate all the pious ?

Have you noticed that BM doesn't answer questions or make any sensible contribution to discourse or debate?

He just spews RC monotonous diatribe ad-nauseum.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 180
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