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RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 1:34:08 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

No not a rant, seeking true answers on BDSM Leather Lifestyle traditions and history.

But jezabel - there are no 'set' traditions. Even within the Leather community it is vague and sketchy. The History would be irrelevant, because not all Masters who enter Gorean arenas would be based on just the Leather section. They can come from all walks. BDSM is based on individual relationships. Whilst you may get certain 'rules' at private parties or group meetings, there is no set 'protocol' to follow other than the protocol of the people who run the said meeting or party - and thats only decided when it is announced.

In Gorean culture, there are different expectations and protocols, but even then, it depends on a particular house and individual group. I have never walked into a Gorean household or online forum and the protocols or history, been the same.

Cater to the individual.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to jezabelKH)

Post #: 21

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 1:51:09 PM

Caretakr

Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline

Mastery as a concept hinges on the fact that the Master has an internal construct (core) that is unwavering-even when not owning.

When the master *Owns*, he has conditioned a property to a state of internal enslavement-there is no worry as to how that property is addressed,what forms of address it is expected to use with others-or exactly how it is used or shared.

The property respects and honors it's place as being the owner's. This is discreet from Self mastery and honor.

A Master has the mindset that allows Ownership. So while the two concepts can be linked-merely having a servant does not make that possible.

(in reply to jezabelKH)

Post #: 22

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 2:09:30 PM

jezabelKH

Posts: 663
Joined: 5/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

Mastery as a concept hinges on the fact that the Master has an internal construct (core) that is unwavering-even when not owning.

When the master *Owns*, he has conditioned a property to a state of internal enslavement-there is no worry as to how that property is addressed,what forms of address it is expected to use with others-or exactly how it is used or shared.

The property respects and honors it's place as being the owner's. This is discreet from Self mastery and honor.

A Master has the mindset that allows Ownership. So while the two concepts can be linked-merely having a servant does not make that possible.

i would have to agree with you, Master yourself and you can Master others.

jezabel{KH}
just simply a slave
Property Of Master Ken

(in reply to Caretakr)

Post #: 23

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 2:40:48 PM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jezabelKH

This was posted in another area, and quite simply i just did not know how to answer it. well let's say i do know how to answer it, but it really should come from a Leather Lifestyle BDSM Master or Mistress. i read the replys it was getting in the other forum and no one was giving the right answer, probably because He is asking about BDSM questions in a Gorean Discussion Room. Would any Leather Lifestyle BDSM Masters or Mistresses like to touch on the subject of The Long History and Traditions of the BDSM Leather Lifestyle? Seeking truthfull, unbiased and educational answers please.

sincerely,
jezabel{KH}
just simply a slave
BDSM Alpha slave and Gorean kajira
The Poly House Of Hussey, A Multi Sect Household
Property Of Master Ken

Posted only to give a background on the questions being asked.

"Start Of Quote"

If you consider that *no-one was giving the right answers*...then you have made at least some kind of decision as to what are the *right or wrong* answers already?

Although I'm no expert on anything at all.......I'd still suggest that the reasons given, fall short of the ACTUAL reasons chaps may not like a slave calling others *Master*.

There may be a *tradition* in Gor, there may be *tradition* in BDSM, up to a point.....but the individual nature of bdsm relationships ( used loosely) meander far from any given *path*.

Kedikat's post would probably be close to anything I'm comfortable with or identify with.

agirl

(in reply to jezabelKH)

Post #: 24

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 3:06:02 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

This was posted in another area, and quite simply i just did not know how to answer it. well let's say i do know how to answer it, but it really should come from a Leather Lifestyle BDSM Master or Mistress.

::snipped for brevity. First of all, let me say that I disagree with you as to where this should have been posted. Clearly, that OP was seeking feedback on why Goreans were behaving in ways akin to non-Goreans on titles, protocols, etc. If you want feedback from Goreans, you must ask Goreans.

quote:

Are there other reasons for this that you have seen? What do you think is the reason or the most common reason behind this behavior? Why do people continue to do it after learning what the common and proper Gorean practice is?

The question as stated can't be answered in the general BDSM forums except by Goreans.

Now, on to 'your' question which is very different from the snippet you posted from the other forum.

quote:

Would any Leather Lifestyle BDSM Masters or Mistresses like to touch on the subject of The Long History and Traditions of the BDSM Leather Lifestyle?

First might I suggest a trip out to Chitown to visit the Leather Archive and Museum.

http://www.leatherarchives.org/

It's a wonderful place to start to educate yourself on the history of the modern leather movement such as it exists.

As far as any sort of 'common' history which is shared by one and all .. such an animal does not exist.

BDSM is too broad and vast to be whittled down to a single history. Rather, like life itself, it is ongoing and ever growing with a diverse population which is ever changing.

The only commonality that we all share is that we are all human.. and even that will be hotly debated in some circles as well.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to jezabelKH)

Post #: 25

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 5:22:41 PM

jezabelKH

Posts: 663
Joined: 5/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: jezabelKH

This was posted in another area, and quite simply i just did not know how to answer it. well let's say i do know how to answer it, but it really should come from a Leather Lifestyle BDSM Master or Mistress. i read the replys it was getting in the other forum and no one was giving the right answer, probably because He is asking about BDSM questions in a Gorean Discussion Room. Would any Leather Lifestyle BDSM Masters or Mistresses like to touch on the subject of The Long History and Traditions of the BDSM Leather Lifestyle? Seeking truthfull, unbiased and educational answers please.

sincerely,
jezabel{KH}
just simply a slave
BDSM Alpha slave and Gorean kajira
The Poly House Of Hussey, A Multi Sect Household
Property Of Master Ken

Posted only to give a background on the questions being asked.

"Start Of Quote"

If you consider that *no-one was giving the right answers*...then you have made at least some kind of decision as to what are the *right or wrong* answers already?

Although I'm no expert on anything at all.......I'd still suggest that the reasons given, fall short of the ACTUAL reasons chaps may not like a slave calling others *Master*.

There may be a *tradition* in Gor, there may be *tradition* in BDSM, up to a point.....but the individual nature of bdsm relationships ( used loosely) meander far from any given *path*.

Kedikat's post would probably be close to anything I'm comfortable with or identify with.

agirl

thanks for your reply. i guess the correct wording should have been i was searching for an answer from a BDSM Lifestyle Master or Mistress not a Gorean Master or Mistress.

i do have to agree with you, His answer's are lacking and that is why i am bringing the questions to the BDSM Lifestyle Master or Mistresses for their opinion on His post.

sincerely
jezabel{KH}
just simply a slave
Property Of Master Ken

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 26

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 5:29:37 PM

jezabelKH

Posts: 663
Joined: 5/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

This was posted in another area, and quite simply i just did not know how to answer it. well let's say i do know how to answer it, but it really should come from a Leather Lifestyle BDSM Master or Mistress.

::snipped for brevity. First of all, let me say that I disagree with you as to where this should have been posted. Clearly, that OP was seeking feedback on why Goreans were behaving in ways akin to non-Goreans on titles, protocols, etc. If you want feedback from Goreans, you must ask Goreans.

quote:

Are there other reasons for this that you have seen? What do you think is the reason or the most common reason behind this behavior? Why do people continue to do it after learning what the common and proper Gorean practice is?

The question as stated can't be answered in the general BDSM forums except by Goreans.

Now, on to 'your' question which is very different from the snippet you posted from the other forum.

quote:

Would any Leather Lifestyle BDSM Masters or Mistresses like to touch on the subject of The Long History and Traditions of the BDSM Leather Lifestyle?

First might I suggest a trip out to Chitown to visit the Leather Archive and Museum.

http://www.leatherarchives.org/

It's a wonderful place to start to educate yourself on the history of the modern leather movement such as it exists.

As far as any sort of 'common' history which is shared by one and all .. such an animal does not exist.

BDSM is too broad and vast to be whittled down to a single history. Rather, like life itself, it is ongoing and ever growing with a diverse population which is ever changing.

The only commonality that we all share is that we are all human.. and even that will be hotly debated in some circles as well.

Celeste

yes i am well aware of the Leather Archive and Museum, O/our BDSM club had a fund raiser for it and a plaque was placed on the wall at the Museum for O/our clubs contributions. i was however asking the questions from the vast wealth of BDSM Leather Masters and Mistresses here on collarme.com but thanks for your response and sharing the url.

sincerely
jezabel{KH}
just simply a slave
Property of Master Ken

p.s. some other good resources to check out is NLA (National Leather Association) and MAsT (Masters And slaves Together) local chapters in most major city's.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 27

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 5:58:04 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

i was however asking the questions from the vast wealth of BDSM Leather Masters and Mistresses here on collarme.com but thanks for your response and sharing the url.

I suppose with 24 years in the lifestyle, 10 of those spent on on the handle side of the crop, being a switch somehow disqualifies me from forming or having an opinion on the issue.

I totally get it. I leave you to your thread and those whom you deem worthy of having the right to answer your questions.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to jezabelKH)

Post #: 28

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 6:30:33 PM

MasterCurios

Posts: 156
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline

i will try and explain how it is in my house and where we congregate...my pet calls me Master because i have earned that from her...my pet only addresses those that deserve to be called Master/Mistress who have demonstrated that they know how to handle the title(ie...long term friends/acquaitances)that list is large...it is polite protocol for a slave to address others as they appear till proven wrong..

_____________________________

may the pain be with you

(in reply to jezabelKH)

Post #: 29

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 6:38:17 PM

Kedikat

Posts: 680
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jezabelKH

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: jezabelKH

This was posted in another area, and quite simply i just did not know how to answer it. well let's say i do know how to answer it, but it really should come from a Leather Lifestyle BDSM Master or Mistress. i read the replys it was getting in the other forum and no one was giving the right answer, probably because He is asking about BDSM questions in a Gorean Discussion Room. Would any Leather Lifestyle BDSM Masters or Mistresses like to touch on the subject of The Long History and Traditions of the BDSM Leather Lifestyle? Seeking truthfull, unbiased and educational answers please.

sincerely,
jezabel{KH}
just simply a slave
BDSM Alpha slave and Gorean kajira
The Poly House Of Hussey, A Multi Sect Household
Property Of Master Ken

Posted only to give a background on the questions being asked.

"Start Of Quote"

If you consider that *no-one was giving the right answers*...then you have made at least some kind of decision as to what are the *right or wrong* answers already?

Although I'm no expert on anything at all.......I'd still suggest that the reasons given, fall short of the ACTUAL reasons chaps may not like a slave calling others *Master*.

There may be a *tradition* in Gor, there may be *tradition* in BDSM, up to a point.....but the individual nature of bdsm relationships ( used loosely) meander far from any given *path*.

Kedikat's post would probably be close to anything I'm comfortable with or identify with.

agirl

thanks for your reply. i guess the correct wording should have been i was searching for an answer from a BDSM Lifestyle Master or Mistress not a Gorean Master or Mistress.

i do have to agree with you, His answer's are lacking and that is why i am bringing the questions to the BDSM Lifestyle Master or Mistresses for their opinion on His post.

sincerely
jezabel{KH}
just simply a slave
Property Of Master Ken

My earlier post, sort of relates to this reply.
It makes me very uncomfortable to ever be considered as a Lifestyle Master. And I did not reply to the post as one. I am me. Somewhere out there is one to be Mine. Only then am I a Master in any way. I am usually the master of myself.
There is one to call me Master. The world of BDSM, the Lifestyle etc are not my one. I speak opinions from my point of view, or factual knowledge. Not as a Master.

(in reply to jezabelKH)

Post #: 30

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 6:50:58 PM

Lashra

Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline

A Mistress or Master can instruct their slave to act as they see fit, if the others do not agree with it, tough shit.

If I were to attend a function, yes I'd allow my slave to serve food/drink and I would instruct him to call the Female Dominants Ma'am and the Male Dominants Sir out of respect. But I am the only one he would call Mistress as I am his Owner not anyone else. Should another Dominant have a problem with that they can take it up with me and we can discuss it, however MY word is LAW concerning my house or my slave and it they would be wasting their breath. If they chose to pursue the matter we could take it outside and settle it as it don't matter to me male or female, its all the same.

~Lashra
Whipping asses since 1981

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to jezabelKH)

Post #: 31

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 7:08:02 PM

reticence

Posts: 180
Joined: 2/28/2006
Status: offline

Lashra and Kedikat, if I may ask you both. You both say you want your slaves to call only YOU. Master/Mistress. If you were to be a guest in a Gorean home, and knew the "house rules" were to use those words for all the "Masters" and "Mistresses" in the home. Would you instruct your slave to do that for the duration of the visit? Would that be enough for you to not visit the home of a Gorean, even if you had made friends with them? This is just for my own personal edification, I am not Gorean, and am honestly not asking to be argumentative.

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 32

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 7:11:11 PM

puella

Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

There are ways around that reticence. I have served where I was not allowed to call others "Master" (actually it was an exercise by a former owner). You do not ever need to address the person you are serving at all. Try to do it sometime, it really puts you in a headspin about your own place.. not only not allowed to use a name, but not even a form of address... just moving to the person in question and begging to be of service.

< Message edited by puella -- 7/9/2006 7:12:01 PM >

(in reply to reticence)

Post #: 33

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 7:28:43 PM

WhiplashGirlChld

Posts: 78
Joined: 6/18/2006
Status: offline

I almost never want to be called Master, Mistress, Ma'am or anything formal - my name is all I care for. In social settings, I have preferred my subs simply to exersize defference for others who I see as my peers. If my sub has a free hand, you're damn right he will be fatching things for my friends at my request. Why some people do or don't allow their subs to do this or that - well, I am sure it's for many of the reasons noted and many you would have to ask them directly. Some of the formalities of BDSM social settings - well - just make me laugh.

(in reply to puella)

Post #: 34

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 7:43:05 PM

Lashra

Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: reticence

Lashra and Kedikat, if I may ask you both. You both say you want your slaves to call only YOU. Master/Mistress. If you were to be a guest in a Gorean home, and knew the "house rules" were to use those words for all the "Masters" and "Mistresses" in the home. Would you instruct your slave to do that for the duration of the visit? Would that be enough for you to not visit the home of a Gorean, even if you had made friends with them? This is just for my own personal edification, I am not Gorean, and am honestly not asking to be argumentative.

I would never go to a Gorean function as I do not agree with their beliefs. However if I did accidently walk into a function, I stand by what I said. My slave is MY slave and he will not call anyone Mistress/Master but ME. He could call them Ma'am or Sir out of respect.
I do not see why someone would have a problem with this at all. I do not expect Master X's girl to call me Mistress, I'm not her Mistress/Owner, but I do expect her to call me Ma'am or at the very least Ms. Lashra out of respect. Isnt that what its about, showing some respect to a Dominant?

~Lashra
Whipping asses since 1981

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to reticence)

Post #: 35

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 8:13:07 PM

feastie

Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: reticence

Lashra and Kedikat, if I may ask you both. You both say you want your slaves to call only YOU. Master/Mistress. If you were to be a guest in a Gorean home, and knew the "house rules" were to use those words for all the "Masters" and "Mistresses" in the home. Would you instruct your slave to do that for the duration of the visit? Would that be enough for you to not visit the home of a Gorean, even if you had made friends with them? This is just for my own personal edification, I am not Gorean, and am honestly not asking to be argumentative.

This question isn't addressed to me, but I'm going to touch on it anyway. Seems to me, that anyone having guests in their home, be they Gorean, BDSM, D/s or people that aren't in the slightest kinky, have an obligation to make guests feel welcome in their home. Wouldn't enforcing rules on visitors who are not Gorean make them feel unwelcome?

_____________________________

Snarky and loving it.

Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

(in reply to reticence)

Post #: 36

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 8:17:22 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: feastie

quote:

ORIGINAL: reticence

Lashra and Kedikat, if I may ask you both. You both say you want your slaves to call only YOU. Master/Mistress. If you were to be a guest in a Gorean home, and knew the "house rules" were to use those words for all the "Masters" and "Mistresses" in the home. Would you instruct your slave to do that for the duration of the visit? Would that be enough for you to not visit the home of a Gorean, even if you had made friends with them? This is just for my own personal edification, I am not Gorean, and am honestly not asking to be argumentative.

This question isn't addressed to me, but I'm going to touch on it anyway. Seems to me, that anyone having guests in their home, be they Gorean, BDSM, D/s or people that aren't in the slightest kinky, have an obligation to make guests feel welcome in their home. Wouldn't enforcing rules on visitors who are not Gorean make them feel unwelcome?

I have to agree with this. But then I can't see Master ever attending a home which would insist he alter his rules for his slave.

(in reply to feastie)

Post #: 37

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 8:32:15 PM

reticence

Posts: 180
Joined: 2/28/2006
Status: offline

Thank you all for your answers. It was mostly curiosity, i have never been in a Gorean home. Most of the Goreans i have met online seem to be very gracious, and i doubt it would be a problem. I have to admit calling anyone besides my Master "Master" would not be comfortable for me, either.

Puella (smile) i can imagine the headspace. A few years ago, after some careful introspective times, i noticed how "all about me" i was becoming. On my own, without telling anyone that i was doing it or why, i just stopped using the word "I", i was not making a big deal of it, just finding ways to frame my words without any reference to myself, as a way to get over myself and change my perspective a bit. I did not use third person speech, just did not use the word I, or any euphemistically phrased reference to myself. It was very enlightening for me and did help me with a change of perspective.

apologies for taking the focus off the main purpose of this thread to the OP

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 38

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 8:49:08 PM

KennelDeSade2

Posts: 210
Joined: 9/19/2004
Status: offline

I find the entire context of "Gorean Slavery" to be an outstanding indicator of mental illness and dissociative behavior, just as I do a few religions I can think of. As for the rest of the "real" BDSM world. . . . . . There is no "one standard" to measure against.

_____________________________

Rules? Just one: I say, she does.
Everything else, is just details.

(in reply to jezabelKH)

Post #: 39

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 8:52:50 PM

jezabelKH

Posts: 663
Joined: 5/21/2006
Status: offline

Y/you are taking this personal, i did not review your profile, and my response was not a slam on Y/you being a S/switch.

Now Back To Topic

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 40

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