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RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 8:55:36 PM

jezabelKH

Posts: 663
Joined: 5/21/2006
Status: offline

i think along the thread the message was lost. not looking for "one standard", "measurements" or "real BDSM" was asking people to share about the "history", "traditions", "background" of BDSM.

BDSM has been around a lot longer than Gor, therefore there is a "history" to be told.

(in reply to KennelDeSade2)

Post #: 41

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 9:20:10 PM

Brosco

Posts: 238
Joined: 5/29/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: feastie

quote:

ORIGINAL: reticence

Lashra and Kedikat, if I may ask you both. You both say you want your slaves to call only YOU. Master/Mistress. If you were to be a guest in a Gorean home, and knew the "house rules" were to use those words for all the "Masters" and "Mistresses" in the home. Would you instruct your slave to do that for the duration of the visit? Would that be enough for you to not visit the home of a Gorean, even if you had made friends with them? This is just for my own personal edification, I am not Gorean, and am honestly not asking to be argumentative.

This question isn't addressed to me, but I'm going to touch on it anyway. Seems to me, that anyone having guests in their home, be they Gorean, BDSM, D/s or people that aren't in the slightest kinky, have an obligation to make guests feel welcome in their home. Wouldn't enforcing rules on visitors who are not Gorean make them feel unwelcome?

I'll try not to embarress you in public by agreeing with you too much feastie, but on this I had to add my $0.02

There is the saying that 'when in Rome..... "
and that would imply that visiting a Gor household that protocol should be observed. But is that protocol expected from vanilla vistors? say the parents of the slave? would they be expected to use 'Master' also? I think not, and so why should another in the lifestyle follow that protocol if it wasn't part of them?

I have previously lived in Thailand for a number of years - a most gracious people with a very strong tradition. And while they appreciated visitors to their country that made an attempt at following some of the traditions (they saw the respect, even when the farang screwed it up), they were extremely tolerant of those that had no clue or could not follow their beliefs.

From what I have seen of the people from Gor, they are far closer to the Thais than they are to the 'Romans'.

Brosco

_____________________________

Any Dom that believes he is in complete control ... has a very clever subbie.

(in reply to feastie)

Post #: 42

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 9:23:48 PM

Domme4femaleONLY

Posts: 4
Joined: 7/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

I would not want My one to call another master after she was Mine. The term carries special meaning between her and I
I am not a Gorean, so it is a different thing to me. It carries with it deep meanings of love and submission. So it is not for all to be addressed that way.

As far as serving in a social atmosphere. I would expect her and myself to be polite and attentive to guests.

I agree totally with you. Once my male was collared by me he was told, should he be expected by anyone else to call them Master or Mistress he was to politely refrain with I am sorry but I have been told that I am to address another dominant only as Sir or Ma'am per Mistress' orders. If there is a problem please take it up with her.
As for serving, yes, he is to serve all others that are either at our home for a party...or if we are out with others in the lifestyle then he is to serve the dominants with us if they do not have their submissives with them.

_____________________________

For as low as you go...ask to be taken that high...

(in reply to Kedikat)

Post #: 43

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 9:43:48 PM

EvilGeoff

Posts: 523
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jezabelKH

Would any Leather Lifestyle BDSM Masters or Mistresses like to touch on the subject of The Long History and Traditions of the BDSM Leather Lifestyle? Seeking truthfull, unbiased and educational answers please.

Before I even attempt to comment on this, I want to ask for some clarifications:

First, who would you consider a "Leather Lifestyle BDSM Master or Mistress"? Are you meaning heterosexual or "pansexual"? Do they have to be 24/7 practioners? Do they have to own a slave, or does having a submissive partner qualify? Looking for monogamous folks? Or polyamorous? Or does it matter?

And regarding "The Long History and Traditions of the BDSM Leather Lifestyle" Are you seeking information about the BDSM lifestyle, or the Leather lifestyle? And yes, Virginia, there IS a difference between them, just ask any gay leatherman or leatherdyke. Knowing a few gay leathermen and having had the priviledge of learning from them, gay leather is as different from het leather as BDSM is different from Gor.

If you are looking for the secret traditions of European households that go back hundreds of years, I'm sorry, but I can't help with that.

Can't provide much in the way of gay leather traditions or history either, but I can share a bit of what I have learned from folks like vi Johnson, Glenda Rider, Guy Baldwin, Skip Chasey, Master Regi- and others.

On the other hand, if you are looking for what a 45 year old heterosexual, sadistic, lifestyle living, munch group founding, NCSF supporting, 24/7 owner of janey Dominant can tell you about what works in _HIS_ household, then I will be happy to contribute.

YIK,
- Geoff

< Message edited by EvilGeoff -- 7/9/2006 9:45:48 PM >

(in reply to jezabelKH)

Post #: 44

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 9:45:40 PM

jezabelKH

Posts: 663
Joined: 5/21/2006
Status: offline

Thank You for Your reply.

(in reply to Domme4femaleONLY)

Post #: 45

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 9:57:16 PM

jezabelKH

Posts: 663
Joined: 5/21/2006
Status: offline

Sir,

Thanks for Your questions......now let's address each one.

"Leather", "Lifestyle", "BDSM", "Master" or "Mistress" are just indentifying labels, they do not rely on Y/your sexual preference would like to hear from "A/all"...Pansexual, Hetrosexual, Gay, Lesbian or Bi........does not effect the question.

Can be 24/7 practioners or non-practioners, i know of several M/s relationships that do not reside in the same house.

Using the title of Master or Mistress does not depend on if You currently own a slave.............all view's from property or non-property owners are welcome.

Yes i would like to hear all sides of the coin, Gay Leathermen, Gay Leatherdyke, Hetrosexual BDSM, Masters, Mistresses and yes i do value the differences from Gorean Lifestyle.

If anyone has information first hand or by research on European BDSM history and traditions please share.

As a fellow card toter for the NCSF, NLA, MAsT i would love to hear your opinon on the subject.

Thank You so much for Your contribution to the subject and Your time.

sincerely,

jezabel{KH}
just simply a slave
Property Of Master Ken

< Message edited by jezabelKH -- 7/9/2006 9:58:49 PM >

(in reply to EvilGeoff)

Post #: 46

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 10:15:12 PM

Kedikat

Posts: 680
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: reticence

Lashra and Kedikat, if I may ask you both. You both say you want your slaves to call only YOU. Master/Mistress. If you were to be a guest in a Gorean home, and knew the "house rules" were to use those words for all the "Masters" and "Mistresses" in the home. Would you instruct your slave to do that for the duration of the visit? Would that be enough for you to not visit the home of a Gorean, even if you had made friends with them? This is just for my own personal edification, I am not Gorean, and am honestly not asking to be argumentative.

I would not expect to be called Master by the Goreans, as I am not Gorean and have not attained that title in their realm. I would not have My one call anyone else Master. I would explain this, and would think all decent folks involved could understand and respect each others ideas. Knowing respect was there on a level beyond mere words.

(in reply to reticence)

Post #: 47

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 10:20:30 PM

reticence

Posts: 180
Joined: 2/28/2006
Status: offline

Thank you for your reply. I do tend to agree with you.

again, i apologize to Jezabel for the temporary hijack.

(in reply to Kedikat)

Post #: 48

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 10:23:10 PM

Kedikat

Posts: 680
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jezabelKH

i think along the thread the message was lost. not looking for "one standard", "measurements" or "real BDSM" was asking people to share about the "history", "traditions", "background" of BDSM.

BDSM has been around a lot longer than Gor, therefore there is a "history" to be told.

By the very way you type it as BDSM you divorce it from any of the more specialized groups. The letters stand for individual words, not any sect or following. It is a broad catergory when stated as BDSM. It is an acronym for actions/verbs. Do not put it into or attach it into any sect. To ask some of the questions you pose requires the question to be asked in a more specific realm/sect. BDSM is a very broad term.

(in reply to jezabelKH)

Post #: 49

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 10:27:17 PM

EvilGeoff

Posts: 523
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

I would not expect to be called Master by the Goreans, as I am not Gorean and have not attained that title in their realm.

You are male, you are adult, you are free. That is all that is necessary to attain the title "Master" on Gor. Therefore, you would be addressed as "Master" by any and all slaves, kajira (female slave) or kajiru (male slave) alike.

YIK,
- Geoff

(in reply to Kedikat)

Post #: 50

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 10:43:39 PM

Kedikat

Posts: 680
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EvilGeoff

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

I would not expect to be called Master by the Goreans, as I am not Gorean and have not attained that title in their realm.

You are male, you are adult, you are free. That is all that is necessary to attain the title "Master" on Gor. Therefore, you would be addressed as "Master" by any and all slaves, kajira (female slave) or kajiru (male slave) alike.

YIK,
- Geoff

Seems that takes the being Gorean completely for granted. If I have a deep belief and code, I do not give it's meanings so freely. It can be an insult to somebody to casually take them into your belief system. And an insult to the belief itself.
If Gor so easily dispenses the term Master, what value is in it?

I have been in homes of many beliefs, countrys of many ways. Fortunate to attend some minor ceremonies. I put forth the most basic levels of respect and politeness. I expect no certain level in return, or take on the customs I see casually and emptily. So far, this has been seen and appreciated as respectful, and I have been accorded respect without false acceptance and unwarranted ritual towards me.

Respect of a guest in your home is to adapt to there comfort to some degree, and they to yours. The term Master in a Gorean home would sit uncomfortably on me. As it feels when someone blesses me, and they actually think they are the messenger of god and have put godly blessings upon me. I got hit by a drive by papal blessing once and it was somewhat insulting and pompous to me.

< Message edited by Kedikat -- 7/9/2006 10:44:49 PM >

(in reply to EvilGeoff)

Post #: 51

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 10:52:28 PM

jezabelKH

Posts: 663
Joined: 5/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

As it feels when someone blesses me, and they actually think they are the messenger of god and have put godly blessings upon me. I got hit by a drive by papal blessing once and it was somewhat insulting and pompous to me.

i could not agree with You more. please visit the site marked polls, there is a poll currently there on religion.

Now back to the topic.

< Message edited by jezabelKH -- 7/9/2006 10:53:02 PM >

(in reply to Kedikat)

Post #: 52

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/9/2006 11:40:58 PM

EvilGeoff

Posts: 523
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

Seems that takes the being Gorean completely for granted. If I have a deep belief and code, I do not give it's meanings so freely. It can be an insult to somebody to casually take them into your belief system. And an insult to the belief itself.
If Gor so easily dispenses the term Master, what value is in it?

Gor is not a belief system or a religion, it's a set of 26 fantasy novels written by several authors using the pen name "John Norman". (side note: The majority of the books were written by the same man, John Frederick Lange, a professor of Philosophy at Queens College, CUNY for many years) The novels (refered to as "the scrolls" by Goreans) detail the adventures of Tarl Cabot and others and provide glimpses of the world of Gor, also refered to as "Counter-Earth".

The cultures of Gor are reflections and amalgamations of ancient Greece and Rome, the Huns, the Vikings, the tribes of Native America, ancient Persia and more. Most of the philosophies expounded on in the books preach about "natural order" thinking and the "natural dominance of Men over women".

No insult intended, since I freely admit I'm a SF buff to the point of being a Trekker, but Goreans are to BDSM what Klingons are to SF fandom. They have adopted someone else's made up culture, language, and world and try to live their lives like it means something based on the information they can glean from the writings. Kinda like how the followers of L. Ron Hubbard have managed to turn Scientology into a belief system. It ain't what the author intended, but they have gone ahead and done it anyway! *grins and shrugs*

With Goreans, if you don't want your slave used by anyone else, tell them she is "white silk" and off limits. Done deal. Unless, of course, they are dishonorable, thieving scum (which, being human, they might be. Gor has pirates, thieves, criminals, cheats, frauds, bandits, etc, just like any other human culture.)

Yes, I've spent some time studying Gor. My first slave was kajira and I wanted to be a good Master to her. It ain't my way to play, but hey, if it floats their boat, they can call their house their homestone, their slaves kajira and have them waiting at the door in Tower or Nadu, and make them wear red silk.

YIK,
- Geoff

(in reply to Kedikat)

Post #: 53

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/10/2006 2:47:20 AM

Mavis

Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jezabelKH

i would have to agree the title Master has a deeper meaning to me and belongs to only one, it is earned, not given freely to just any Man.

True, and as a BDSM practictioner, not a Gorean, that is how i do it.
However, when i go to a Gorean chat room, i observe the protocols of the unique culture of Gor.   Their men are always addressed as "Master" and it doesn't ascribe ownership.

Why do i do it? Because Master wishes i show respect to the world in general,   not just those who do what we do the way we do it. Therefore, i "Master" the Gor males, "Sir" officers writing tickets, "Maam" Masters wife... "Mr and Mrs" couples i know only informally, etc. In that case, it doesn't take anything away from the reverence of the name, title, and label of *my* Master. i feel it enhances Him.

As for the question... i don't understand..   this fellow was asking about why some don't use "Master" for all males, as is the common Gorean pattern? and the question is... is there a tradition within BDSM that defines why we don't?

i think the answer there lies in Gor books.  Goreans follow the story line of the Gor books, and that's how males were referred to. In BDSM, we use Master as a singular owner of a slave.

That tradition probably goes back farther than just formal BDSM, i think Roman slaves didn't call Every slave-owner "Master", only the one that owned THEM.

_____________________________

~ Mavis

none of this applies to me, i'm only playing with lables this week.

(in reply to jezabelKH)

Post #: 54

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/10/2006 3:12:21 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jezabelKH

i think along the thread the message was lost. not looking for "one standard", "measurements" or "real BDSM" was asking people to share about the "history", "traditions", "background" of BDSM.

BDSM has been around a lot longer than Gor, therefore there is a "history" to be told.

jezabel

How difficult is it to understand that the history of BDSM - the traditions are as wide and varied and personal as the universe. You will not ever gain a history, or a tradition or a background simply because, unlike Gor which is based on fictional books - and therefore has traditions and background written in 'stone' - BDSM is about the individual. No amount of history, traditions or background will change that.

It is up to an individual to answer - which is what people like myself, celeste and other have done. But you are refusing to see those points and instead are waiting for the answer that you want to see, rather than what you are given.

Now I may not be a Master nor a Mistress, but I have the blessings of the person that I am with to speak.

That does not make my idea any less important, for what my idea is, comes from Him.

If you wanted only answers from Masters and Mistress' then maybe you should have posted it on the appropriate boards and not the general forum.(That is just a polite suggestion btw).

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to jezabelKH)

Post #: 55

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/10/2006 5:56:04 AM

thegunslinger

Posts: 81
Joined: 6/4/2006
From: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Status: offline

I'm still enjoying the cuddle of Goreans and mob of BDSMer's comment.

_____________________________

"The essence of domination is to take another's power and then use it for mutual pleasure." - John Warren

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 56

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/10/2006 7:55:42 AM

jezabelKH

Posts: 663
Joined: 5/21/2006
Status: offline

dark,

you have made your views very known, i have not discounted them, thanks for your contribution, back to topic.

jezabel

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 57

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/10/2006 9:13:28 AM

KennelDeSade2

Posts: 210
Joined: 9/19/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jezabelKH

i think along the thread the message was lost. not looking for "one standard", "measurements" or "real BDSM" was asking people to share about the "history", "traditions", "background" of BDSM.

BDSM has been around a lot longer than Gor, therefore there is a "history" to be told.

Depends on how you define BDSM. The current scene lifestyle culture has been extant since about 1970, so you could argure that Gor has been around longer. Of course, Gor is make believe, just like O, the old guard, and the great slave houses of . . . You get the idea.
So as to BDSM history, sure, people have been flogging themselves since times beyond memory. Romans had orgies, but I wouldn't say that modern swingers and the Romans had any more in common history than say gladiators and NFL ball players.
The problem is that people want to belong to a grand and ancient tradition, and will find a way to do so, even if they have to make that history up from whole cloth.

_____________________________

Rules? Just one: I say, she does.
Everything else, is just details.

(in reply to jezabelKH)

Post #: 58

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/10/2006 12:16:33 PM

jezabelKH

Posts: 663
Joined: 5/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KennelDeSade2

Depends on how you define BDSM. The current scene lifestyle culture has been extant since about 1970

KennelDeSade2,

Could You please site Your source for the 1970 quote. i personally know people who have had a 24/7, BDSM, Poly Leather Family since 1956......my Father and His friends. So Your quote on 1970 does not make since, actually i find it rather odd.

jezabel{KH}
just simply a slave
Property Of Master Ken

(in reply to KennelDeSade2)

Post #: 59

RE: BDSM Masters and Mistresses someone needs truthfull... - 7/10/2006 1:59:40 PM

reticence

Posts: 180
Joined: 2/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

ORIGINAL: jezabelKH

i think along the thread the message was lost. not looking for "one standard", "measurements" or "real BDSM" was asking people to share about the "history", "traditions", "background" of BDSM.

BDSM has been around a lot longer than Gor, therefore there is a "history" to be told.

jezabel

How difficult is it to understand that the history of BDSM - the traditions are as wide and varied and personal as the universe. You will not ever gain a history, or a tradition or a background simply because, unlike Gor which is based on fictional books - and therefore has traditions and background written in 'stone' - BDSM is about the individual. No amount of history, traditions or background will change that.

It is up to an individual to answer - which is what people like myself, celeste and other have done. But you are refusing to see those points and instead are waiting for the answer that you want to see, rather than what you are given.
Now I may not be a Master nor a Mistress, but I have the blessings of the person that I am with to speak.
That does not make my idea any less important, for what my idea is, comes from Him.
If you wanted only answers from Masters and Mistress' then maybe you should have posted it on the appropriate boards and not the general forum.(That is just a polite suggestion btw).

Peace and Rapture

Dark

(smile) it was not all in vain. I have been reading and totally appreciate what you and celeste are saying. Thank you for sharing what you have to say.

reti

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 60

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