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RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/29/2016 10:38:50 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

You want cops shooting people in the groin, God your cruel.


lol... they get no sympathy from me... maybe taking out some reproductive organs would benefit mankind... Damn see.... you made me turn into a fanatic again!

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 281
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/29/2016 10:43:08 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

You want cops shooting people in the groin, God your cruel.


lol... they get no sympathy from me... maybe taking out some reproductive organs would benefit mankind... Damn see.... you made me turn into a fanatic again!

Butch

Killing them is kinder that a groin shot.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 282
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/29/2016 7:25:05 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		FR/jumpthrough

Umm, self defense allows me to shoot the MF in the head. Why not beat to death ? What's the difference, more pain ? Good if the MF deserves it.

T^T

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 283
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/30/2016 4:28:55 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: ifmaz

I'm relaxed, swearsies! I debated putting him on ignore but don't like the idea of forcibly silencing someone just because they have a case of the dumb.


Putting your fingers in your ears does not me silence.
Jesus you are phoqing stupid.


Anyway, a few friends and I went out to the desert for some range time and I brought up this wager to them.

One has to wonder why, if as you claim, you belong to an exclusive gun club with expensive cars in the parking lot that you go to the desert to shoot.

While everyone agreed shooting at the feet was idiotic and shooting at specific toes even more idiotic we decided to try it, obviously not shooting at a person because we're not psychopaths. We set up some targets taped to normal AR500 steel plates, both circular and silhouette. The goal was to use a single round to strike a toe-sized target; we used a 1" square which is about the size of 2-3 toes.

You clearly have very small feet...and all that that implies

We were going to start with rifles but felt the target was too close, plus the AR500 pamphlet said minimum 100 yard distance for proper rifles. We opted to try with the Glock 19 (9mm, popular carry firearm), Glock 17 (9mm, many police carry this), two somewhat tricked out Glock 34s (9mm, competition/race gun), Kahr somethingorother (because Moonies), Sig P229 (9mm, Coast Guard carry this), and an AR9 (AR15-style rifle that shoots 9mm, 16" barrel), so mostly 9mm, which is a popular carry caliber with minimal recoil. Under normal range conditions we all hit the 1" square at 10' and most of us hit the 1" square at 25 yards (75'), especially with the Glock 34s. Under somewhat normal CCW conditions (ie drawing and firing) we all continued to hit the 1" square at 10'. At 25 yards (75'), most of us hit the 1" square when drawing and firing, pretty much the same group.

So even you and your "friends" admit that a 1" target at 25 yards is an easy shot. Thankyou for validating my position.


We didn't "draw" with the AR9 but started at a low-ready position before shouldering and firing. With the AR9 everyone hit the 1" target at both 10' and 25 yards. Nobody liked my admittedly cheap red dot sight but nobody offered to buy me an EOTech either.

We then added the "under duress" part of the wager. One of us, the 'attacker', started about 12 feet away and would run towards the shooter's back (again, we're not psychopaths). The shooter would have to draw and fire at the steel targets before the 'attacker' reached them, simulating, for the most part, a normal defensive scenario. While we all hit the steel plate at 10', only two of us were able to hit the 1" square before the 'attacker' touched them.


One must consider and challange the validity of this statement...if you cannot see the attacker running at your back how does this affect your shooting?


(in reply to ifmaz)
Profile   Post #: 284
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/30/2016 4:35:56 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: ifmaz

ORIGINAL: ifmaz



In response to your question: yes

I will be at mcrd san diego thursday march 31. I have been invited to attend the graduation of d co. 1st bn. I will be free thursday morning. Base legal is in building 12 at 3100 chosin ave.
They will be open at 0800.
The public is invited to the graduation so all you need to get on the base is show your id and have the registration and insurance for your vehicle. The p at the gate will give you directions to base legal. After you have signed the waiver and deposited the money with "my lawyer" (the next jag officer in line) we (as in me and thee) have been invited to visit the home of one of the drill instructors of d co. He lives on some acreage about fifteen minutes from the base.
We will, however, have an audience...several other drill instructors want to watch.
You can bring a doctor if you like but please do not forget the money...cash no cheques or promisory notes.
I am looking forward to meeting you and your money.





(in reply to ifmaz)
Profile   Post #: 285
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/30/2016 9:06:24 PM   
ifmaz


Posts: 844
Joined: 7/22/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: ifmaz

I'm relaxed, swearsies! I debated putting him on ignore but don't like the idea of forcibly silencing someone just because they have a case of the dumb.


Putting your fingers in your ears does not me silence.
Jesus you are phoqing stupid.


If i don't have to read your comments, you're effectively silenced. If enough ignore you, your audience dries up and you'll have to seek your much desired attention elsewhere.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
One has to wonder why, if as you claim, you belong to an exclusive gun club with expensive cars in the parking lot that you go to the desert to shoot.


I am a member of several ranges. As a group, not everyone is a member of all (or any) of the ranges so we shoot out in the desert. The "exclusive gun club" was never described as "exclusive", only that Bentleys, Porsches, and the occasional Ferrari were in the parking lot (post #86, Guns Flowing into Mexico). I mentioned it (to someone else, I should add) in order to illustrate that not every firearm enthusiast lacks money and that Arizona, with our lax firearm laws, is hardly the "wild wild west". As for me 'drooling' over cars in the parking lot, yes, some of the Ferraris look pretty awesome; I prefer the vaguely UFO-looking F360/F430, personally. With regards to me not being able to afford them, perhaps I have an "expensive car" of my own -- do you know for certain I do not?

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
You clearly have very small feet...and all that that implies


Why what ever will I do with myself, what with an arthritic old man insulting me over the internets?

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
So even you and your "friends" admit that a 1" target at 25 yards is an easy shot. Thankyou for validating my position.


Yes, shooting at a 1" target from 25 yards is a relatively easy shot -- when not under duress (post #434, CDC & Firearms) and not while the target is moving (post #98, Guns Flowing into Mexico). Why do you continue to omit these conditions of our wager?

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
...
We then added the "under duress" part of the wager. One of us, the 'attacker', started about 12 feet away and would run towards the shooter's back (again, we're not psychopaths). The shooter would have to draw and fire at the steel targets before the 'attacker' reached them, simulating, for the most part, a normal defensive scenario. While we all hit the steel plate at 10', only two of us were able to hit the 1" square before the 'attacker' touched them.

One must consider and challange the validity of this statement...if you cannot see the attacker running at your back how does this affect your shooting?


Again, it's the "under duress" part of our wager, the part you seem to conveniently forget. I'm not quite sure how you could forget as the quoted text plainly says "We then added the "under duress" part of the wager". Just because one can leisurely make a shot does not mean they can do the same while in a stressful situation, even if the stress is artificial. Having someone run at you and knowing you have a finite (and rapidly shrinking) period of time in order to place your shot adds stress.

It's almost as if you have never fired a weapon in a stressful situation.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 286
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/30/2016 9:07:27 PM   
ifmaz


Posts: 844
Joined: 7/22/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: ifmaz

ORIGINAL: ifmaz



In response to your question: yes

I will be at mcrd san diego thursday march 31. I have been invited to attend the graduation of d co. 1st bn. I will be free thursday morning. Base legal is in building 12 at 3100 chosin ave.
They will be open at 0800.
The public is invited to the graduation so all you need to get on the base is show your id and have the registration and insurance for your vehicle. The p at the gate will give you directions to base legal. After you have signed the waiver and deposited the money with "my lawyer" (the next jag officer in line) we (as in me and thee) have been invited to visit the home of one of the drill instructors of d co. He lives on some acreage about fifteen minutes from the base.
We will, however, have an audience...several other drill instructors want to watch.
You can bring a doctor if you like but please do not forget the money...cash no cheques or promisory notes.
I am looking forward to meeting you and your money.







Like an ignored child pulling on the sleeve of their parents you have made repeated posts inviting me to San Diego. I'll ignore that I had originally asked you for a YouTube video and then invited you to Phoenix to demonstrate your still unproven shooting abilities. How ironic that you would be desperately demanding to be heard while ignoring repeated requests of yourself -- how about that lawyer's name? However, in an answer to your question (one that I hope you will quote in its entirety), I work on Monday through Friday.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 287
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/31/2016 12:17:38 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		I think a one inch target at 25 yard is pretty good actually. But how good do you shoot with a pistol ? I can take out a bird in flight with a pistol, well I could, and did, but not so sure about now. Range more like 10 yards or so, not 25.

I think it is really more important to be able to shoot with shit moving around, because it does. Target practice just teaches you how to use the sights. How to use the weapon effectively when you NEED to is a different story.

T^T

(in reply to ifmaz)
Profile   Post #: 288
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/31/2016 1:21:59 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		~fr~

This is for anyone who would care to answer my curiosity. I'm not quite 'getting' the whole bet and shooting moving targets. I mean, they do that all the time with clay pigeons and those things are only about a third of a foot across or so. Is it because rifles are used as opposed to guns and that it would be harder to trap shoot or something with a pistol?

I did a little research and the targets are anywhere from 10 yards to 60 yards away. Are guns less accurate and that's what makes the bet interesting or hard to accomplish?

Michael and I used to go shooting a lot and I was pretty good at grouping but those targets didn't move and I was much closer than 25 yards. I used to have a 191 bowling average until I injured myself and I'm still pretty good with a pool stick and a bull whip so my aim is decent for a blind woman with virtually no bone in the right elbow. I know I couldn't hit a moving target or if I did it would be because I got damn lucky but I'm a duffer with no training other than what Michael shared with me and what I learned from the instructor at the range and, of course, lots of practice. I don't suck.. well, compared to you folks I do.. but I don't suck for a duffer. :D

Anyway.. will someone enlighten me as to why this appears to be so unbelievable that people are willing to pay money for it? I'm just not getting it.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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Profile   Post #: 289
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/31/2016 6:08:18 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

~fr~

This is for anyone who would care to answer my curiosity. I'm not quite 'getting' the whole bet and shooting moving targets. I mean, they do that all the time with clay pigeons and those things are only about a third of a foot across or so. Is it because rifles are used as opposed to guns and that it would be harder to trap shoot or something with a pistol?

Typically one uses a shotgun for trap and skeet. A shotgun puts out a patern of small pellets whereas a rifle or pistol puts a single pellet.



Anyway.. will someone enlighten me as to why this appears to be so unbelievable that people are willing to pay money for it? I'm just not getting it.


It is simply petty jelousy. Chairborn rangers contend that anyone who shoots better than they do is a myth. When given an opportunity to "put up or shut up" they post up that they are busy at work.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 290
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/31/2016 6:27:15 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I think a one inch target at 25 yard is pretty good actually. But how good do you shoot with a pistol ?

The nra standard 100 yard smallbore rifle target has an x ring of of 1 moa (minute of angle) or slightly over 1 inch.

I can take out a bird in flight with a pistol, well I could, and did, but not so sure about now. Range more like 10 yards or so, not 25.

I think it is really more important to be able to shoot with shit moving around, because it does. Target practice just teaches you how to use the sights. How to use the weapon effectively when you NEED to is a different story.

Dude...the bulls eye on a standard nra 25 yd. pistol target is 1.51" in diameter. That is about the size of your big toe from the tip down to the first knuckle.


< Message edited by thompsonx -- 3/31/2016 6:39:35 AM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 291
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/31/2016 6:40:17 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
]ORIGINAL: ifmaz


ORIGINAL: thompsonx



In response to your question: yes

I will be at mcrd san diego thursday march 31. I have been invited to attend the graduation of d co. 1st bn. I will be free thursday morning. Base legal is in building 12 at 3100 chosin ave.
They will be open at 0800.
The public is invited to the graduation so all you need to get on the base is show your id and have the registration and insurance for your vehicle. The p at the gate will give you directions to base legal. After you have signed the waiver and deposited the money with "my lawyer" (the next jag officer in line) we (as in me and thee) have been invited to visit the home of one of the drill instructors of d co. He lives on some acreage about fifteen minutes from the base.
We will, however, have an audience...several other drill instructors want to watch.
You can bring a doctor if you like but please do not forget the money...cash no cheques or promisory notes.
I am looking forward to meeting you and your money.







Like an ignored child pulling on the sleeve of their parents you have made repeated posts inviting me to San Diego. I'll ignore that

Quite understndable. You have neither the money or toes to spare.



I had originally asked you for a YouTube video

Videos can be easily faked.

and then invited you to Phoenix to demonstrate your still unproven shooting abilities.

You are the one who said "I am calling you out" I have offered you access to my lawyer, giving you the address and the time we will be available.

How ironic that you would be desperately demanding to be heard while ignoring repeated requests of yourself -- how about that lawyer's name?

Since base legal is a walk in the lawyer will be whoever is on duty at the time. Base legal is in building 12 which is 3100 chosin ave. mcrd san diego ca.

However, in an answer to your question (one that I hope you will quote in its entirety), I work on Monday through Friday.

Not only that but my guess is your mom wont let you cross the street by yourself either.



(in reply to ifmaz)
Profile   Post #: 292
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/31/2016 6:46:04 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: ifmaz

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
...
We then added the "under duress" part of the wager. One of us, the 'attacker', started about 12 feet away and would run towards the shooter's back (again, we're not psychopaths). The shooter would have to draw and fire at the steel targets before the 'attacker' reached them, simulating, for the most part, a normal defensive scenario. While we all hit the steel plate at 10', only two of us were able to hit the 1" square before the 'attacker' touched them.

One must consider and challange the validity of this statement...if you cannot see the attacker running at your back how does this affect your shooting?
[/quote]

Again, it's the "under duress" part of our wager, the part you seem to conveniently forget. I'm not quite sure how you could forget as the quoted text plainly says "We then added the "under duress" part of the wager". Just because one can leisurely make a shot does not mean they can do the same while in a stressful situation, even if the stress is artificial. Having someone run at you and knowing you have a finite (and rapidly shrinking) period of time in order to place your shot adds stress.

I would be the one with the gun...no duress on my part...the one being shot at would be the one under duress.

(in reply to ifmaz)
Profile   Post #: 293
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/31/2016 6:48:30 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz

Like an ignored child pulling on the sleeve of their parents you have made repeated posts inviting me to San Diego. I'll ignore that I had originally asked you for a YouTube video and then invited you to Phoenix to demonstrate your still unproven shooting abilities. How ironic that you would be desperately demanding to be heard while ignoring repeated requests of yourself -- how about that lawyer's name? However, in an answer to your question (one that I hope you will quote in its entirety), I work on Monday through Friday.



Also of note: That pile of barely human flotsam claims to have all kinds of access at a Marine Corps Depot. Unusual, since he likes to mock dead Marines.

Too bad someone in his family hasn't buried him. That'd be fine by me.



Michael

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A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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Profile   Post #: 294
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/31/2016 7:06:07 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Also of note: That pile of barely human flotsam claims to have all kinds of access at a Marine Corps Depot. Unusual, since he likes to mock dead Marines.

Too bad someone in his family hasn't buried him. That'd be fine by me.


Well mikey for someone who claims to have been a marine you do not seem to know who smedley was nor what simper fi actually means.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 295
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/31/2016 9:39:00 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


Typically one uses a shotgun for trap and skeet. A shotgun puts out a patern of small pellets whereas a rifle or pistol puts a single pellet.


Ah, okay. That makes sense. Thank you, Thompson. :) If I might extend my nosy just a bit further, I couldn't actually find the original bet, I was wondering what gun was stipulated?

I mean.. if it's a Gatling gun, I'm sure I could hit a moving target.. eventually. ;)


_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 296
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/31/2016 9:49:41 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

~fr~

This is for anyone who would care to answer my curiosity. I'm not quite 'getting' the whole bet and shooting moving targets. I mean, they do that all the time with clay pigeons and those things are only about a third of a foot across or so. Is it because rifles are used as opposed to guns and that it would be harder to trap shoot or something with a pistol?

I did a little research and the targets are anywhere from 10 yards to 60 yards away. Are guns less accurate and that's what makes the bet interesting or hard to accomplish?

Michael and I used to go shooting a lot and I was pretty good at grouping but those targets didn't move and I was much closer than 25 yards. I used to have a 191 bowling average until I injured myself and I'm still pretty good with a pool stick and a bull whip so my aim is decent for a blind woman with virtually no bone in the right elbow. I know I couldn't hit a moving target or if I did it would be because I got damn lucky but I'm a duffer with no training other than what Michael shared with me and what I learned from the instructor at the range and, of course, lots of practice. I don't suck.. well, compared to you folks I do.. but I don't suck for a duffer. :D

Anyway.. will someone enlighten me as to why this appears to be so unbelievable that people are willing to pay money for it? I'm just not getting it.


I believe thompson's original claim was that he could shoot the toe off of an attacker running towards him at 25 yards with a handgun.

A foot, of course, would be making an up and down and forward and back motion instead of an arc. That is a big difference in following a moving target.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 297
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/31/2016 10:22:16 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


ORIGINAL: thompsonx


Ah, okay. That makes sense. Thank you, Thompson. :) If I might extend my nosy just a bit further, I couldn't actually find the original bet, I was wondering what gun was stipulated?

Since I am the one who was "called out" my choice of weapon was a .22 pistol. Specifically a hi-standard auto-loader with a 10 round magazine loaded with wrm (winchester rimfire magnum)40gr.jhp(jacketed hollow point). When fired through a 10" barrel it will achieve about 1800 fps.muzzle velocity.
A running person will move about 9' per second. At 75' it will take the bullet about .024 sec to reach the target. What this means is that the bullet strike will be behind the point of aim by about a quarter of an inch. The foot is moving in a fore and aft direction and an up and down direction not side to side. thus the foot never leaves the sight picture and the point of aim and the point of impact will be seperated by a fraction of an inch.
Was that way too much information?

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 298
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/31/2016 10:27:05 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: Aylee

I believe thompson's original claim was that he could shoot the toe off of an attacker running towards him at 25 yards with a handgun.

Then you obviously believe wrongly. My original claim was 10' not 75'. It was ifmaz who first stated that I had said 75'. Since either shot is well within my capability I went one better and said I could not only do it but specify which toe.

A foot, of course, would be making an up and down and forward and back motion instead of an arc. That is a big difference in following a moving target.


If you are a clerk/typist that may be true. If you shoot competitively it is called taking money from chumps.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 299
RE: Does self defense allow you to beat someone to deat... - 3/31/2016 10:33:18 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
This is for the disgusting pile of meat and bones I have on ignore:

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4736684

When my step-father was in the Army (1951-'53) and when my ex-father-in-law was in the Army (1962-'66 and he was a German national) and when I was in the Army (1986-'98), any foreign national could serve four years and "earn" their citizenship ...





quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4660764
I was stationed in Ft. Ord, Ft. Huachuca, and Ft. By-God-Benning.

and this is what we had.

If it had been ground beef (not salted) it might have been somewhat more palatable but, I doubt it because the "cream sauce" was nasty, too.





Three ARMY bases

Get your facts straight or shut the fuck up, douche-canoe

I know who Butler is and I agree with some of what I've read from him, but none of that negates this: TommyBoy being a thoughtless jerk.

(By the way, you've now "outed yourself" to me. I know whose sock you are. I'll be reporting it. There's rules about posting as two different posters on the same thread, chicken)



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 3/31/2016 10:42:48 AM >

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 300
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