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Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/9/2006 9:46:37 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Im going to post a rant thread, no I do not think I am owed a rant thread, and I could post this on Benji's complaint thread, but I thought I would make this point. I know this will probably be flamed because this opinion isn't popular, but what the hay.. here goes!

I am so tired of the anti-immigrant sentiment in this country, as if all our problems can be blamed on illegal immigration. They are the favorite whipping boy of the American people it seems, for what? To distract you from the fact you will be soon spending 3 dollars for a gallon of gasoline, that our kids are dying in Iraq, that we are falling into a sea of personal and national debt, and no one has any solutions to these problems.

So lets blame the Spanish speaker when the people employing them are to blame for the fact that they come here illegally to better their circumstances. Why do we not see threads decrying them? Well, I decided this one should. I think that every employer that gets caught hiring an illegal should be tried for treason. I bet they might think twice about it if they were looking at life in a federal prison.

I saw another thread tonight about Spanish in our educational system as a way to ridicule it... well it couldnt be "No Child Left Behind"? could it? I get so tired of hearing people bash Mexicans... I live in a state with many many Mexicans... in my son's school district there are 100 different languages spoken, and he is doing fine with his ability to read, write and to do arithmatic. I think that parents not taking responsibility or having the necessity to work two jobs that contributes to poor skills in our children every bit as much as the Mexicans. It saddens me, the Mexican population in my state work hard and are often exploited.. they work in fields in which cancer causing chemicals are widly used in large quanities, their children often move with them in a migratory manner and do not get the benefit of going to school here because they move too much, women are in the fields with these chemicals while they are pregnant... so you can eat cheap fruit and veggies while the farmer that employed them profits grossly for it. Yes, blame the Mexican... geesh

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Post #: 1

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/9/2006 9:52:36 PM

TreSwank

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In my opinion, illegal immigrants are the very epitome of tenacity and family values. These brave individuals have the testicular fortitude to jump the border, work their asses off for $3.00/hr, and STILL SEND MONEY BACK TO MEXICO/CENTRAL AMERICA TO ASSIST THEIR RELATIVES. If that's not the portrait of an ideal American, I don't know what is!!

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 2

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/9/2006 10:00:15 PM

Kedikat

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Yes.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 3

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/9/2006 10:13:36 PM

fullofgrace

Posts: 395
Joined: 3/24/2006
From: fl, usa
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yes. let's all blame the mexicans for doing work we're too lazy to do that we wouldn't dare do for twice the pay they get.

i agree, this pisses me off as well. i went to a high school that was 70% minority and 10-20% people who came in not knowing english, the only esl program in the county, and i got a fine education. i worked for that education; there are many students who come in reading at a 4th grade level (in 9th grade) and leave not much better. but if you actually care about school, there are teachers, even if only one or two, who are willing to work with you, and there are resources. once you are at a certain age, the responsibility for education is not all on the system anymore, and it can't all be blamed simply because someone else speaks another language. i remember translating for people in math class. they are TRYING to learn the language, and the fact that they aren't learning fast enough for you (while you're failing spanish 1 and pissed that you even have to take it) isn't their fault.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/9/2006 10:17:19 PM

TreSwank

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You tell em'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/9/2006 10:42:24 PM

Lordandmaster

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I agree, julia, and the fact that people blame illegal immigrants, and not their employers, says a lot about WHY they're blaming illegal immigrants. They're looking for scapegoats, and illegal immigrants are a lot easier to take on than corporations with mysterious hiring practices who probably contribute heavily to the Republican Party.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 6

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/9/2006 11:13:31 PM

Kedikat

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Joined: 4/20/2006
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I've brought up this same aspect in other posts.
I'd love to see the borders sealed tight. Just see us all having to deal with the cosequences. And the countries denied export of their people having to deal with them as well.

It's a win win for countries looking for cheap labour and countries needing to get rid of the folks that would be toughest to deal with at home.

Some day there will finally be no other place to stuff our problems. I almost wish I will be alive to witness that very rude awakening.....

(in reply to fullofgrace)

Post #: 7

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/9/2006 11:14:44 PM

Kedikat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreSwank

In my opinion, illegal immigrants are the very epitome of tenacity and family values. These brave individuals have the testicular fortitude to jump the border, work their asses off for $3.00/hr, and STILL SEND MONEY BACK TO MEXICO/CENTRAL AMERICA TO ASSIST THEIR RELATIVES. If that's not the portrait of an ideal American, I don't know what is!!

Agreed. And said in simple words

(in reply to TreSwank)

Post #: 8

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 3:43:27 AM

Level

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Republican mayor of New York city Michael Bloomberg recently spoke about the illegal immigrant issue, here's a link to it for those interested.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/07/05/immigration.hearing.ap

It's a tough issue, to my mind. It's not a matter of waving a magic wand and making them disappear and everything being hunky-dory, nor letting them all stay and everything being hunky-dory. But, as julia said, I would not look harshly on the majority of immigrants; they're decent, hardworking people.

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(in reply to Kedikat)

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 4:51:52 AM

SusanofO

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I agree. I read an essay about illegal immigrants in TIME magazine that was heart-breaking about 6 months ago. Anyone willing to cross the ocean on a raft made of driftwood to get here, I say we let in! How could anyone with a heart turn them away? My great-grandparents were immigrants (albeit legal, but their stories were just as sad). These people have more guts and bravery than many of my neighbors do. It just makes me sad there are so many.

Meat processing and packing plants in the middle of my state had a "sting operation" going last year and shut down 3-4 plants that hired nothing but illegals because they could pay them $6.50 an hour for back-breaking, stinky, dangerous work and they'd accept those wages. The employers all got fined, the plants closed, and it threw the towns where they were located into a tizzy because it was thier main industry (and some legal citizens worked there also, who were then out of work). My guess is they'll re-open, perhpas, as soon as a few years go by, and might do the same thing again, only with new owners.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/10/2006 4:56:26 AM >

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(in reply to TreSwank)

Post #: 10

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 5:45:19 AM

subedana

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I disagree with closing the borders. Just wouldn't work. In my humble opinion I say open up the borders between Mexico and Canada. Let everyone who wants to come in and work. Oh, and pay taxes just like I do.

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 11

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 6:18:44 AM

Mercnbeth

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Enforcement of the law on both sides of the equation is essential. Enforcement at the employee level is really all that's needed. I challenge everyone who says we "can't deport 12 Million people" with the idea that if there was no employer hiring they'd charter their own buses. Fine the employer $10,000 per each illegal employee on the first offense and add prison time for the owners/officers from the second occurrence and the problem goes away. Then you can open the borders.

However the issue is enforcement. The issue is what is legal, and more importantly consequence. I find it ironic that a group of people who in their personal relationship seek discipline and consequence for breach of "rules" don't have the same attitude on this issue.

Not enforcing existing laws, on both the employers AND the illegal immigrants, can potentially rationalize not enforcing any laws. While we're at it we also shouldn't enforce any of the traffic laws.

No speed limit
No need to stop for red lights
No need to drive on the right.
Have a six pack while driving home from work.

No enforcement or prosecution! Keeping consistent

No burglary
No gun laws
Drug availability to ALL!

Everyone has the right to break the law!

Rape doesn't exist.
Kill you spouse if they don't understand you! (Just think what eliminating that excuse will do for potential CM partners)

If all the police and other law enforcement people weren't bothered with ILLEGAL immigration or these petty crimes they could all enforce the critical "NO Smoking" laws.

Oh, and on the practical side; wouldn't it be great that instead of requiring our government to raise our minimum wage that the "evil" employers would be required to raise it on their own because there wasn't someone willing to work for $1/hour?

Also, there are approximately 15 million LEGAL immigrants in the US. Coming here with a Visa, filing the necessary paperwork every year, and applying for legal citizenship; they wait legally for a decision. How stupid of them!

(in reply to subedana)

Post #: 12

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 8:01:55 AM

LotusSong

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From: Domme Emeritus
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It's about obeying the laws of the country they immigrate to.. If not now.. WHEN?

How would you feel if you worked very hard on hour house, did the work all yourself.. and then realized that people had snuck in your back door into a room and trashed it? I think you would be upset.

You are right.. it's the people who emply them in substandard conditons and wages that should be prosecuted. They are jumping from the frying pan into the fire and will end up being just slaves in America to big business.. or just about anyone else.

Lotus

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I'm not inflatable.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 13

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 8:06:43 AM

meatcleaver

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I don't think the Mexican illegals are so much trashing your house as cleaning the toilet.

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 14

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 9:26:51 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Mercnbeth,

I wholeheartedly agree with you, I think as Californians we may view this problem differently because we are exposed to Mexican American people all the time, some first generation, some whose families have been here before California was even a state. We have usually seen the exploitation that goes with the illegal immigration problem, such as hiring day workers and not paying them at the end of the day because they lack a green card... It is one of the reasons I wash my own car, because I hate the idea that some illegal is washing my car for the tip I hand him, and that is all he gets for his effort.. I live what I preach, we take our car to a do-it-yourself carwash, or I wash it. I am not going to help the guy who owns that carwash break our immigration laws to profit himself.

I think that people who use landscaping companies, or yard maintenance companies, hire a contractor to build them a house, use a maid service, or a laundry service should take some responsibility to make sure these service industries do not hire illegals, or quit bitching about the problem because they are part of it. I do not use any of these services, but if I did I would ask questions.

We should enforce existing laws, and stiffen penalties for hiring of illegals because the illegals haven't broken any of their country's laws by coming here, but the people who employ them are Americans and therefore they are the law breakers.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/10/2006 9:27:54 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 15

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 9:45:10 AM

NeedToUseYou

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From: None of your business
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I'm not for illegal immigration and not for corporations using them.

I'm for a controlled immigration policy and for corporations using legal immigrants if they want to.

The same loose border that the good hardworking people cross are the same borders, bad criminals cross. If they are open, they are open to everyone. This fallacy that everyone crossing is your stereotypical stuggling, hard working mexican isn't the case.

If you controlled the border, you could screen who is coming in. I don't think that's a bad thing. It's believe it or not what most countries do.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 16

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 9:51:38 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

We should enforce existing laws, and stiffen penalties for hiring of illegals because the illegals haven't broken any of their country's laws by coming here, but the people who employ them are Americans and therefore they are the law breakers.

julia,
You and I will be 100% in agreement if you agree with one other point that rises from the section of your post that I quoted.

When I travel to Mexico or other countries I am not subject to US law I am subject to local law. It matters not that they "haven't broken any of their country's laws". I'll even stipulate that the vast majority of people here illegally do not break any other laws and are here because they want to work and support their family. However it doesn't change the fundamental fact that they are here illegally.

Illegal immigration protest marches, boycotts, and the people who support them should be subject to the same scrutiny as group of people protesting and running boycotts against the enforcement of pedophile laws. If there was a group called "FADD" (Fathers Advocating Drinking & Driving) would you rally to support it? Here's the way a paragraph from your OP would read replacing only the focus:

I am so tired of the anti-DRUNK DRIVING sentiment in this country, as if all our problems can be blamed on DRUNK DRIVING. They are the favorite whipping boy of the American people it seems, for what? To distract you from the fact you will be soon spending 3 dollars for a gallon of gasoline, that our kids are dying in Iraq, that we are falling into a sea of personal and national debt, and no one has any solutions to these problems.

How long would a group who staged themselves 1/2 mile from a weekend sobriety check point be out there before the police came by and stopped them? Yet, their action would be legal. Whereas those same police in their day to day activity are NOT actively enforcing illegal immigration laws.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 17

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 10:14:57 AM

TreSwank

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Yeah.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 18

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 10:51:26 AM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
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quote:

Im going to post a rant thread, no I do not think I am owed a rant thread, and I could post this on Benji's complaint thread, but I thought I would make this point. I know this will probably be flamed because this opinion isn't popular, but what the hay.. here goes!

Nah….. look at this way : The thread/topic you are posting about is ten times more interesting than someone leaving collarme because all the truewayers/old guard flew north for the summer.

quote:

I am so tired of the anti-immigrant sentiment in this country, as if all our problems can be blamed on illegal immigration. They are the favorite whipping boy of the American people it seems, for what? To distract you from the fact you will be soon spending 3 dollars for a gallon of gasoline, that our kids are dying in Iraq, that we are falling into a sea of personal and national debt, and no one has any solutions to these problems.

Ok… let me take my tin-foil hat off for sec and tell you that I don’t for one second believe the illegal alien crisis is a false flag operation designed to keep our minds off the fact that homeboy running Exxon just received a 400 million-dollar golden parachute {And he’s deserving of every penny} while the average American is being looted in the namesake of collusion, cronyism and just plain outright greed. You don’t{Believe that} either, though ; } -- Both issues and a few more need to remain forthright in our minds.

quote:

So lets blame the Spanish speaker when the people employing them are to blame for the fact that they come here illegally to better their circumstances. Why do we not see threads decrying them? Well, I decided this one should. I think that every employer that gets caught hiring an illegal should be tried for treason. I bet they might think twice about it if they were looking at life in a federal prison.

You’re on the money with regard to the folks/corporations who are hiring them. And I wholeheartedly agree that our current laws on the books should be enforced and held to strict adherence. And humungous fines should be levied against those who break these laws.

But wait a minute….. here’s where I part company from you and slightly disagree. You seem to absolve the poor Spanish speaker of all responsibility?

Remember…. Mexico is not a barren wasteland, plagued with famine and misery like the countries of Somalia or Ethiopia. Mexico is rich with opportunity, in that it has vast resources in timber, minerals and oil – quite similar to here in the USA

So what’s stopping the average Mexican from enjoying the fruits of opportunity those resources might provide? It’s the small, maniacal, corrupt ruling elite, right? Remmants from the same ole' group of ruthless folks/families who have oppressed the masses since the fall of the Aztec empire.

Isn’t it about time that the average Mexican decides to stand up for virtue and for what’s right, and take back in part what actually belongs to him? Doesn’t he owe that to him/herself and those who descend them?

Having traveled extensively throughout the non-tourist areas of Mexico and getting to see/learn a little more about the culture than the average American, I’m aware that the Mexican people as a whole are very devout with regard to the ‘’family’’ and the last thing they really want to do is leave that family and come here. But the problem is... they just don’t have the fortitude to stand up for what they believe in and take their country back. – In other words…. They invented the word ''Cajones'', but they don’t have any. And the ones who do… became citizens here twenty years ago.

So while I appreciate your thread and I'm cognizant of their plight, I don’t feel quite as sorry for them as you do.

Let me end this post by saying that I saw bumper sticker the other day which read ''The answer to Orwell’s 1984 is 1776''

- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 7/10/2006 10:54:28 AM >

_____________________________

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-General George S. Patton

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 19

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 11:09:32 AM

caitlyn

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Mercnbeth's legal example list laws that provide for the common good, and protect citizens.

Immigration laws may or may not promote the common good, and may or may not protect citizens. Some people feel that open immigration would be very good for the United States, in that it would provide a large pool of cheap labor.

That the law is being broken is obvious. We can enforce the current law, or remove the law if the law makes no sense (prohibition example). Both methods fix the "law being broken" problem.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 20

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