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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 11:16:03 AM

TreSwank

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Joined: 3/5/2005
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Illegal immigration may not be in accordance with the letter of the law, but I know that the spirit of the law, that says, "Give me your tired and oppressed" does not discriminate against oppressed minorities that seek out the promised land in hopes of finding "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". In my mind, the instinct that leads folks to hate illegal immigrants is perhaps the most anti-American sentiment I've ever seen.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 21

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 11:23:48 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Respectfully I do not see an analogy between a group of drunk drivers and people marching over illegal immigration. Both are protesting laws I suppose, but other than that I do not see the point. I marched here in protest against the Iraq War, usually marching alongside mothers and grandmothers of those "over there" in Iraq. My name was taken, my picture taken. In my community the local peace group (Im a member), was infiltrated by anti terrorism task force.. this group was highlighted in Michael Moores Documentary - Fahrenheit 911. So I imagine those who marched over immigration were documented the same way as I was. They felt the risk was worth it.

Yes, if I go to Mexico I pay the penalty for breaking their laws.... same here in the USA, unless our government would rather deport you. Again, I think it is up to people who are citizens here to respect our laws more than those who are not citizens. I feel more offended by it personally. Perhaps I am off base with that feeling, but I feel that way.

I guess that is where I get my tinfoil hat, why would the government want info on me unless they might want to use it someday?

UtopianRanger,

I have known people on certain right wing mailing lists just to see what they got as far as literature goes that is directed at ordinary right wing people.... Well social engineering is easy to do when you have lists of people that will discuss and think about that which you tell them is "important". Listen to Rush, Ann Coulter, or any of the rest to see what I mean... they talk about it over and over and over,.. until mainstream media talks about it...

If congress is talking about something and passing laws about something, then the media often cover it.. it becomes an "issue"... and no, congress doesn't want to talk about gas prices in and election year when they hold power and do not want to lose it... they would prefer to talk about things that pander to their base... hence they all want to talk about immigration and gay marriage... flag burning is always a favorite "redirect" technique too.

As far as your view of Mexico itself, I agree, but the individual picking strawberries in the field doesn't have much power back home to change anything.. and when I try to do it here, in a free country, my picture was taken, my name was taken, and they probably have a file on me somewhere as a "dissident". I can live with that, for now. It probably will not hamper my future, but the man sending back all his money to Mexico might end up imprisoned for life if he really tried to change things in Mexico..

just a few thoughts.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 22

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 11:26:38 AM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
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"How would you feel if you worked very hard on hour house, did the work all yourself.. and then realized that people had snuck in your back door into a room and trashed it?"

what if, instead of trashing it, they came in and did extremely cheaply and well the work you couldn't afford to get finished?
The immigrants under discussion are not jumping the border to trash houses, they are jumping the border to work hard for low wages. By characterising these people as vandals you appear racist, or at least the sort of intolerant that assumes all people who aren't the same as you are evil.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 23

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 11:28:23 AM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
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quote:

Some people feel that open immigration would be very good for the United States, in that it would provide a large pool of cheap labor.

Oh Really? I'd love to read their in-depth, very detailed analysis with regard to that and the whole trickle-down theory one might purpose. Last time I checked, the continuation of depressed wages only resulted in bigger bonuses and greater profits for major stock holders and corporate thiefdoms.

- R

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 24

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 11:32:23 AM

Caretakr

Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
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I think that illegal employers are the ones to blame.

And that an overburden of unrealistic taxation is to blame for there being so many illegal employers.

And as soon as illegals get made legal, they are entitled to the very benefits that any of us are-and they will cease to be cheap labor-what then?

< Message edited by Caretakr -- 7/10/2006 11:33:25 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 25

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 11:34:15 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

Let me end this post by saying that I saw bumper sticker the other day which read ''The answer to Orwell’s 1984 is 1776''

- R

Actually this is a little glib. Despite the professed heroics of the rebels, they were fighting against a an enemy whose people didn't really support the war and whose Parliament were completely split between fighting a war or not because many MPs agreed with the rebels cause and all considered them as fellow countrymen. There was little support for the war in Britain, no strategy and not a clue with what they would do with the colonies should they win.

The Mexicans would have to fight a civil war where neither side could retreat and there would be no sense at all of rules of warfare. It would literally be dog eat dog. The American revolution/war of Independence was not in that league no matter how violent it was.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 26

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 11:45:00 AM

doll

Posts: 296
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From: Middle Georgia
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I personally think both are to blame..if the illegals wouldn't work for the low wages, the employers would have to pay more to get the work done.

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(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 27

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 11:46:18 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

I think that illegal employers are the ones to blame.

And that an overburden of unrealistic taxation is to blame for there being so many illegal employers.

And as soon as illegals get made legal, they are entitled to the very benefits that any of us are-and they will cease to be cheap labor-what then?

More illegals will take their place

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Caretakr)

Post #: 28

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 11:48:17 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

That the law is being broken is obvious. We can enforce the current law, or remove the law if the law makes no sense (prohibition example). Both methods fix the "law being broken" problem.

caitlyn,
When/if the law changes then enforcement is moot. What makes "no sense" is current selective enforcement of a law on the books. What is the rationalization? After the fact what then? When prohibition was repealed were the people arrested for bootlegging released from prison?

quote:

In my mind, the instinct that leads folks to hate illegal immigrants is perhaps the most anti-American sentiment I've ever seen.

Your's was the first mention of hate. A standard deflection tactic of the losing side of a debate. Like saying if you are anti AA/EEO you are anti opportunity for woman. Ignoring the fact that in colleges today have more woman than men in attendance. AA/EEO isn't about equality it's about creating a group "more equal".

I hate that people such as President Bush and Senator Kennedy are on the same side of this issue advocating for continued exploitation. I hate that because of the economy created by illegal immigrants, a construction company in CA with 100% legal workers and/or US citizens can't bid competitively on a job. I hate that the workers in that construction company have the choice of working for $10/hour without benefits or not working because an illegal would do the job for $2-3/hour. I hate that there are no inter-city emergency rooms in LA because illegal immigrants used them as clinics with no intent to pay for the services received. I hate that in many CA schools you can't address the lack of ability to make change because you first have to make sure they are understand the language that the subject is being taught.

Yep - I sure hate all that. For the people who are being exploited by their county of origin as well as the employers who hire them here, I have nothing but sympathy for them and respect for their goal, if not their actions.

Enforcement of America's own laws "anti-American"? "Give me your tired and oppressed..." - LEGALLY. If not, the former motto of the US; "Don't Tread on Me", should apply.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 29

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 12:00:12 PM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
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Philosophy ...

I wouldn't mind a bit if you were to be so kind as to point out that you responded to my post, but put down a quote that I didn't actually make.

I did that to EnglishDomNW once, and felt like an ass.

Just wanted to point that out, since you basically just called me a racist for saying something that I didn't even say.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 30

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 12:02:12 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

I do not see an analogy between a group of drunk drivers and people marching over illegal immigration. Both are protesting laws I suppose, but other than that I do not see the point.

julia,
That is the point.

And in this case, you have lawbreakers leading the parade. The people who broke the law that a FADD rally would address are actively pursued, arrested, tried, convicted, and incarcerated. Apply the same pragmatism to illegal immigrants and their employers. Protest all you want but lawbreakers should be subject, and suffer the consequences of their actions. Protest long enough and you may convince enough people that the law should change.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 31

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 12:02:56 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Our govt. is doing things they shouldn't be doing and not doing things they should.
To anyone who thinks that we can't close that Mexican border I would refer them to S. Korea's border. We've had 37,000 US Troops there for 54 years now guarding "Their" border with minefields, and "shoot to kill" orders. There are sensors there that can pickup a mouse crossing that border at 0200! *NOTHING* gets across that border!
How can we guard a foreign country's border with 37,000 US Troops and minefields and NOT guard our own borders?
I don't know about anyone on this board but *I* don't have any "interests" in S. Korea.
I mean what "interests" does the U.S. have in guarding S. Korea?
As for Employers who hire illegal aliens it *is* a Federal Felony to do so. This should be enforced and huge fines and jail time should be assessed.
As for there being "Anti-Immigrant" feelings in this country, these people are not *Immigrants*; they're Illegal Aliens who's very first act was to break our laws.
No-one is saying that they are not "nice people", they can be "nice people" in their own countries.
One thing that people need to understand is that immigration to *ANY* country is not a right. We in the U.S. have had a "tradition" of allowing immigration. But it is we who say who gets into our country, how many, where from and if we don't want any immigration.
Personally I agree with a lot of people that we need to take a good long break on any immigration, say 20 years.
As for "feeling sorry" for those illegal aliens their own countries don't feel sorry for them or help them, why should I as an American?
We just don't need anymore immigration from third world countries like Mexico.
Our systems and infrastructure are breaking down because of them; hospitals, schools, jails, social services.
Of course Bush and Big Business love this stuff.
They pay them nothing dropping wages for working Americans and any care they need gets sluffed off on the U.S. Taxpayer!
And do you think they're going to pass the savings along to you?
Of course not! They put the extra money in their pockets!!!
As for Emma Lazzarus, it's called "Lady Liberty" not Lady immigration!

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 32

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 12:03:04 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Many people involved with those protests were here legally or actually citizens

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 33

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 12:07:48 PM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

quote:

I have known people on certain right wing mailing lists just to see what they got as far as literature goes that is directed at ordinary right wing people.... Well social engineering is easy to do when you have lists of people that will discuss and think about that which you tell them is "important". Listen to Rush, Ann Coulter, or any of the rest to see what I mean... they talk about it over and over and over,.. until mainstream media talks about it...

Julia.... I'm here in very rural Oregon, a true bastion of gun nuts, Jerry Fallwell sycophants and all-around right-wing, conservative thinking types. The nature of my job has me dealing with these people every day. I promise you I'm not exaggerating when I say that most of what comes out of their mouths with regard to politics, is their displeasure over gas and open borders/illegal aliens.

So, while agree with you that there is definitely a whole lota social engineering going on, there’s no escaping the fact that most folks are beginning catch on that what’s happening with the petroleum industry/gas prices is major scam; irregardless of what Hannity or El Rushbo are telling them. You can't keep decent people down forever; at least not in this country.

Now if we could somehow just get them to see that cheap labor/slave labor is main outgrowth of globalization, we'd really be getting somewhere ; }

quote:

As far as your view of Mexico itself, I agree, but the individual picking strawberries in the field doesn't have much power back home to change anything.

Neither did the folks who were once forced to pick cotton. Sometimes people have to make sacrifices....meaning a few may parish in a battle for what you believe in.

- R

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 34

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 12:14:15 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

As far as your view of Mexico itself, I agree, but the individual picking strawberries in the field doesn't have much power back home to change anything.

Neither did the folks who were once forced to pick cotton. Sometimes people have to make sacrifices....meaning a few may parish in a battle for what you believe in.

- R

I will have to say, the slaves didn't change things on their own, they had the Northern army on their side with the Immancipation Proclamation. Slave revolts didn't work. The thing is almost every country south of our border has trouble with a stable government that represents people's interests... the reason? Because America gets involved in their political and economic systems to further OUR agenda.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 35

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 12:15:07 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Many people involved with those protests were here legally or actually citizens

Then they have no reason to be concerned about any of their names being taken or pictures being took, or their organization being infiltrated; at least the majority of the group who weren't wearing tinfoil hats.

What of the group that was counter-protesting in LA this weekend against the Minutemen March? A legal parade resulting in injury to an officer.

quote:

Angry counter protesters, some wearing bandannas to cover their faces, yelled at the Minutemen and called them racists. Source: http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=local&id=4349432

Edited to add:
I never realized that there were so many President Bush supporters on this site who would rally behind him and his immigration policy.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 7/10/2006 12:19:22 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 36

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 12:24:23 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Caitlyn, he can't call you a "racist" for your beliefs.
If you all remember your high school science classes there are only three (3) "Races"; Negroid, Mongoloid, Caucasoid.
"Hispanic" or "Mexican" is not a "race."
It's an ethnic group just like Saxon, Tarter or Celtic.
That would be like me, being of Irish heritage trying to call myself a differant race by claiming to be "Celtic."
I've noticed the pro illegal alien groups trying to play the racecard where none exists. They call people who oppose their ideas "Racists" when it doesn't apply. Now they've been using the term "Brown People" or get this, "People of Color" lol
They even try to call their groups "Pro *IMMIGRANT* when the people they claim to represent are not*IMMIGRANTS* but *ILLEGAL ALIENS*. Talk about trying to "Spin"!
I don't care which race someone is, if they're in the country illegally they just need to leave!

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 37

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 12:32:48 PM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

quote:

Actually this is a little glib.

It was meant to be....

quote:

The Mexicans would have to fight a civil war where neither side could retreat and there would be no sense at all of rules of warfare. It would literally be dog eat dog. The American revolution/war of Independence was not in that league no matter how violent it was.

True.... but the oppressors are small in number and it wouldn't take much to foster an environment for change once a handful of them were eliminated.

I was in the Chiapas during the heart of Zapata uprising in the 1990's. The Mexican Army dare not venture into the jungle. All they need is a few more Marcos' and we'd have makings for a good fight.

- R

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 38

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 12:37:10 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
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i wonderred why we dont put land mines along the border.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 39

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 12:37:35 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I am not paranoid nor do I wear a tinfoil hat, and I am a political activist.. not on this issue mind you, but if you think the government doesn't keep lists of dissidents, well think again. I am absolutely sure they have my name.. I chose to participate in protests anyways because I value my beliefs...

I do not like the immigration policy of Bush. I do not agree with protestors of this issue necessarily, and I definitely do not think that their beliefs mirror my own.. I have NEVER heard the Bush administration want to lock up employers. I am not advocating amnesty either. Improving conditions south of the border and perhaps using trade policy to further that aim would be much more productive.

In fact if I had my way we wouldn't trade with countries that were known human rights abusers.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/10/2006 12:38:23 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 40

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