RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 12:40:51 PM

pahunkboy

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i tired of congress passing misleading and shoddy legislation- in bed with the corporate elite.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 12:50:41 PM

UtopianRanger

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quote:

Edited to add:
I never realized that there were so many President Bush supporters on this site who would rally behind him and his immigration policy.

HAR! Isn't that the truth. And no offense, but from the looks of it they have no conception of what the true free-flow of immigration would do to our autonomy - But my bet is that once they got a good look, they wouldn't like what they were seeing.

Let us not forget that nation-states are defined by their history and heritage. Free-flow of immigration is the death blow to that very concept.

- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 7/10/2006 12:51:52 PM >

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 12:57:19 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

I am not paranoid nor do I wear a tinfoil hat, and I am a political activist.. not on this issue mind you, but if you think the government doesn't keep lists of dissidents, well think again. I am absolutely sure they have my name.. I chose to participate in protests anyways because I value my beliefs...

julia,
As do I and I'm positive that I'm on quite a few government lists. I only wish I had more time to be more active. On an issue that I believe, in an environment where I am not breaking the law, I use my standard "so what?" approach to picture takers. Because my name is uncommon and not easy to spell, I usually respond with a business card to any request for it.

I know where you are coming from on this issue. I respect you and your beliefs. I respect the beliefs of protesters. The lack of respect to the rule of law by those who are breaking it is the only place I see disagreement.

I agree that the Bush administration has never tried to enforce the law. As an employer I can tell you why. I'm required to maintain files with two unique documents indicating my employees have legal status to work in the US. I have copies of the required information, yet if any or all gave me forged documents I wouldn't know. There is no national clearing house, there is no national, difficult to forge, ID card. Even though there are laws on the books pointed to employees, as long as you have papers in the file, you can not go after employers unilaterally.

As of today, enforcement against employers can only happen in one manner; going after the employees. Once you have the employees you go back against and prosecute the employers. I think part of their penalty should be the cost of deportation. But it still points back to the basic problem of verification. If an employer is stupid enough not to have papers in a file, albeit forged, you can prosecute them. However if the employer has files, the employers lawyer will argue, and win, on the point that without the ability to verify the employer responsibility law is unenforceable. As a consequence the only enforcement currently available is against the illegal immigrant.

No it's not fair.

Edited to add:

quote:

Improving conditions south of the border and perhaps using trade policy to further that aim would be much more productive.

Why is it the US responsibility?

How is supporting US action in a foreign country in this case different than being against US involvement in Iraq, Iran, Korea? "Trade Policy" concerning Japan is given as a reason Japan had to attack us. The US involvement and trade policy is blamed for the reestablishment of the opium farms in Afghanistan.

Mexico not only has more available natural resources than the US but it isn't encumbered by a mentality among it's people that the extinction of a blind salamander is more critical than supplying energy to the population. If their corruption and mismanagement has put their citizens in a position where working illegally in the US for $1/hour is an improvement compared to their status in Mexico why should it be a problem needing US involvement? Or do you again agree with President Bush that the US knows, should get involved, and determine "what's best" for all people and governments throughout the world?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 7/10/2006 1:12:06 PM >

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 1:09:11 PM

juliaoceania

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There has to be a way to change this and still allow people to not have to present a national ID card wherever they go. Perhaps some special type employment card that is unrelated to a social security card, but that the government can cross reference? Or maybe a fingerprint?

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 1:20:34 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There has to be a way to change this and still allow people to not have to present a national ID card wherever they go. Perhaps some special type employment card that is unrelated to a social security card, but that the government can cross reference? Or maybe a fingerprint?

julia,
The result is the same and generates the same paranoia among most people. Issuing an "employment card" would require everyone have one. For everyone to have one, everyone would somehow have to verified "legal". When a difference makes no difference its not a difference and becomes simply semantics.

However, I don't see anyone from any faction supporting a national card indicating it would be required to be kept with you at all times. I don't see any border crossings being contemplated as you pass State borders. The information I've read would require it to be shown only as a condition of employment to prove legal status.

I won't say that there may not be some other option. I'm only saying I'm not smart enough to think of one.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 1:35:18 PM

juliaoceania

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Im sure you are smart enough to think of one..smiles... just people that are like us are not hired to think of one..usually common sense solutions are better than what we get from Washington.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 1:47:33 PM

JerryInTampa

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Definately a polarizing issue, with some of the people saying that all illegals are wonderful family people jus struggling for an honest life, and others saying that all illegals are criminals in a conspiracy to take American's jobs.

Personally, the steriotype that most offends me is the one made of European-decended Americans. I know this will shock all of you but I've been a dishwasher, and a short-order cook, and a janitor, and operated a convinenece store on the graveyard shift. I do have a lawn service: the guy's name is "Jeff". I have a pet sitter I sometimes use too, her name is "Susan". I clean my own toilets, don't have a cook (though if I can find the right subbie here....) and don't have a maid.

Illegals can be differentiated from legals by one thing... they are illegal. I oppose companies thrashing minimum-wage laws regardless of the legality of the person they are underpaying. Perhaps the laws should be changed, but we cannot solve a bad immigration law by simply ignoring it. Personally, I'd like to see an "American Foreign Legion". I think it's something the French did very well. Service guarentees citizenship.

There are some, except for the illegal entry into a country, upstanding people sneaking into the US. There are also career criminals sneaking into the US. I'm almost surprised that so few see any shades of grey here.

And yes, the recent (now over) furor over immagration was a distract attempt by the current administration. Fortunately for them, we are now busy staring at some soldiers that seem to have gone raping and pillaging.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 1:52:25 PM

juliaoceania

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Ive done several of those jobs myself, but add in laborer in a landscaping company and nanny.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 3:22:33 PM

popeye1250

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Julia, neither the Dems nor Republicans have done very much about this.
Watching the Bush - Kerry election of 2004 was like watching the Iran/Iraq War; you wanted BOTH of them to lose!

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 3:31:39 PM

popeye1250

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Damn. Watching the news.
The new Treasury Secretary made the statement that, "the US is inextricably linked to the Global Economy."
Man, these people who are (Supposed) to be working for US just keep trying to "Sell" us on this "Global" stuff!
Just who are they working for?
I don't know about you but when someone in public office is trying to "Sell" me something I get awful suspicious!

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 3:36:59 PM

JohnWarren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Damn. Watching the news.
The new Treasury Secretary made the statement that, "the US is inextricably linked to the Global Economy."
Man, these people who are (Supposed) to be working for US just keep trying to "Sell" us on this "Global" stuff!

I'm not a big fan of the Bush administration but this statement certainly falls into the "no brainer" class. If we were to close our borders and try to subsist without trade with other countries, we'd have a depression that would simply be unbelievable.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 4:09:24 PM

Mercnbeth

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Regardless of where you stand on this issue, or any issue for that matter, I hope you take it to other forums beyond CM.

There are pending "national forums" scheduled in the next few months throughout the country. If you can attend you should. If you can't you still can have your voice heard through this site:
http://www.congress.org/congressorg/home/

If nothing else, at least you can find out who represents you.

I took the opportunity to once again let my representatives know where I stand, letting everyone from the President on down how important I view this issue. I even sent it to my local elected officials as well as Governer Arnold. I know they don't have any direct legislative ability on this issue, but local laws such as those directed to "day labor" waiting areas are under their control.

My letter:
quote:

As part of Congress.org's virtual hearing on immigration reform, I want to share my views on this important issue. No new laws are needed. Enforcement of existing laws, against the employers of illegal immigrants, will end the problem. Eliminate the reward side of the equation and you eliminate the cause. No amnesty, or amnesty called by any other name, will be acceptable. Any party spearheading such move and any individual supporting amnesty for those here illegally will be not be supported by my money or my vote. I will campaign long and hard for their opponents regardless of any personal disagreement in any of the other planks of their campaign platform. It seems obvious to me that discounting any law discounts all law. Anyone supporting legitimizing the status of people who are here as the result of illegal activity can not be expect the young generation of US citizens to appreciate the difference between right and wrong. We can not expect them to respect the law and appreciate the consequences of breaking the law if in this instance we rationalize that for 12 million people it was not necessary. The pragmatic argument herd often is that it's impossible to deport 12 Million people. I say it is, at the expense of the employers who hired them. Enforce the law at the employer level and the law breakers will leave on their own accord and their reason to come here will evaporate

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 5:12:45 PM

popeye1250

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Mercand Beth, I've been in contact with my congressman and senators about this issue many times as well and will continue to do so until that Mexican border is closed.
Man,...there's going to be a LOT of new faces in the Senate after that Amnesty vote!

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/10/2006 5:14:22 PM

juliaoceania

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Thanks for the link Mercnbeth

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/11/2006 6:06:13 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

Man,...there's going to be a LOT of new faces in the Senate after that Amnesty vote!

Popeye,
I hope you are right. Reality is that too many people don't vote. Many who do respond to jingles or buzz words. Others are easily manipulated by the consequential threats from both parties issued about the other. Posting to a CM is about as politically active as most get.

I doubt there will be much of a turnover especially in the Senate. The senators won't allow a definitive vote on the issue until after November. Campaign reform legislation inhibits any but the most wealthy to run for office. Incumbents will be returned to office and people will continue to wonder why nothing changes.

Edited to add:
By the way, results like this are a reason why you should include local politicians in your letters concerning this national issue. Colorado passed a law making prove of citizenship a requirement for state aid. Link: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/COLORADO_IMMIGRATION?SITE=7219&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-07-11-01-14-41

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 7/11/2006 6:15:30 AM >

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/11/2006 6:38:14 AM

peterK50

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Let's invade Mexico! We invaded Iraq for no reason, with Mexico we're actually being invaded! Once we take Mexico we give it statehood, then Mexicans are no longer immigrants, problem solded.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/13/2006 11:13:30 AM

LotusSong

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I do my own housekeeping, thankyouverymuch

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/13/2006 12:46:35 PM

meatcleaver

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As Mercnbeth said, raise wages to attract American workers and put the onus on employers prove they employ legal workers. There are illegals because employers don't want to pay legal wages and people don't want to pay higher prices. There is a demand.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/13/2006 1:17:07 PM

popeye1250

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Meatcleaver, correct!
What those companies and individuals are engaging in is criminal behaviour not "Capitalism."
In Capitalism if you can't get workers at a certain wage you raise the wages not smuggle people in from foreign countries to work under the table.
Those people need to be in prison!

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/13/2006 1:39:18 PM

SweetPosession

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I blame everyone. The Mexicans made a concious choice to enter a country illegally. They are criminals. Those who knowlingly employ them are aiding criminals. They are also criminals. Anyone who fails to report a criminal is committing a crime. Everyone involved with allowing illegals to come to or stay in America are criminals, and all of them should be forced to take responsibility for their actions.

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