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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 9:17:43 AM   
doll


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Status: offline 		Well said Sweetpossession.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 9:56:33 AM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		julia,

I agree that the Government uses immigration issues as a tool to divert people's attention away from the slaughter that is going on around us.

However, my advice is not to assume that immigration laws are the preserve of the right or that there are not genuine reasons to curb immigration. Here in Britain, many on the left believe in an enforced immigration policy to prevent big business from bringing in cheap labour to increase profits  - and, ultimately, this leaves the British workforce out on a limb. Essentially, the Government has a responsibility to all of it's citizens not to corporations to increase their profits.

The debate (or lack of) on immigration is always too polarised.

NorthernGent

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 10:10:26 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Gent, well said!
And it's not a "Con" or "Lib" thing in this country either as more than 90% of Americans want something done about all of this out of control illegal "immigration."
A working person should be able to make a good week's pay without having to worry about "competing" against people who are in their country illegally who work for less money.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 10:27:06 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		popeye,

Thanks but based on your comment I'll qualify something.

I have no more right to live in England than someone living in a far off part of the globe. Just as a bird has no right to a particular tree, humans have no right to a plot of land. After all, your country is simply a collection of communities who have bound together out of economic convenience. The establishment have put a fence around a plot of land, created a flag and an anthem but that does not equate to ownership. I have no problem with anyone wanting to earn a living in England, they have the right as much as I do.

I object to the Government and big-business. They are deliberately bringing in large pools of cheap labour which exploits both the cheap labour coming in and the current workforce. The result is tension/problems between the two and the only winner is the establishment. My problem with unlimited immigration is the exploitation by the establishment in order to increase profits.

NorthernGent

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 10:37:52 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I agree with the big business part, Gent.
As for the other why is it always Western countries who have to put up with massive immigration? I mean if it's such a "good" thing why don't Japan, China, and India engage in it?
A lot would disagree with you on the ownership part!
Try going to Mexico and telling them "I'm staying!"
You won't be "staying" for long I can assure you of that!
Nice to be idealistic but one has to be practical as well.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 10:50:02 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Damn. Watching the news.
The new Treasury Secretary made the statement that, "the US is inextricably linked to the Global Economy."
Man, these people who are (Supposed) to be working for US just keep trying to "Sell" us on this "Global" stuff!



I'm not a big fan of the Bush administration but this statement certainly falls into the "no brainer" class.  If we were to close our borders and try to subsist without trade with other countries, we'd have a depression that would simply be unbelievable. 


John…. I’m usually pretty much in agreement with you when you post on subjects such as this, but in this post I’d like to see you cite your basis in fact for making this statement.  

I’ve watched the Argentineans recover significantly from the catastrophe of 2000/2001. They devalued their Peso by a three to one margin and enacted a nationalist referendum which says that anybody who imports anything into the country has to manufacture it there.  

They’ve essentially suborned all the globalist corporations to build in Argentina. Money is now starting to flow back into the country instead out; because everything is cheap down there. If you remember correctly, the Argentineans had a high standard of living, with a robust dollar-related economy before their debit bubble burst.  

This country’s consumer base together with our enormous resources tied to technology, is large and sophisticated enough to act in self-contained, protectionist mode which encompasses the producer acting in manner in which they are the sole consumer and visa versa.  

I guess what I’m saying is…. we can trade with other countries in way that we purchase their raw materials and then produce our own saleable products from them. We need fair trade not free trade as the globalist term it. One of these reasons we’ve went from the largest creditor nation to the largest debtor nation is because of such massive trade imbalance. And you know that history tells us that any nation-state that no longer produces what it consumes, has lost it way.    

I’ll end this by saying the main drawback I see from doing what I’ve mentioned above, would be a marginal reduction in corporate hierarchy wage and compensation packages/ corporate profits. I know that back in the 70’s the average CEO pay for a major corporation was something in the order 30-50:1 aginst the average worker; now its something like 450 :1. And what gets me is that the subastanial increase in profits that many of thedse corporations are now seeing isn’t exactly derived from breakthroughs / innovations in the market place, but instead through explotation of slave labor. So why should a CEO {With a publicly traded company} go from 30-50 to 1 to 450 to 1 just because they were shrewd enough to exploit communist China’s slave work force. Not only does that not make sense, but its morally and ethically wrong.



Maybe I'm all wet on this one but I don't think so.




 - R


< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 7/14/2006 10:51:49 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 11:02:19 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		popeye,

People follow a percieved improved standard of living. For the past few centuries that has been the West but it will change as the emerging economies continue to grow.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because Mexicans have also been completely brainwashed into the flag, anthem etc doesn't mean it is right.

I take your point on Japan - a relatively wealthy nation with strict immigration laws. However, what does this say? That the Japanese establishment are institutionally racist? Does it say anything more than that?

Final point. If it wasn't for mass immigration there wouldn't be an England or US as we know it today. The English are a mongrel race with a mongrel language due to centuries of immigration from all over the place. By extension, so are white americans.

NorthernGent

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 11:09:42 AM   
juliaoceania


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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

popeye,

Thanks but based on your comment I'll qualify something.

I have no more right to live in England than someone living in a far off part of the globe. Just as a bird has no right to a particular tree, humans have no right to a plot of land. After all, your country is simply a collection of communities who have bound together out of economic convenience. The establishment have put a fence around a plot of land, created a flag and an anthem but that does not equate to ownership. I have no problem with anyone wanting to earn a living in England, they have the right as much as I do.

I object to the Government and big-business. They are deliberately bringing in large pools of cheap labour which exploits both the cheap labour coming in and the current workforce. The result is tension/problems between the two and the only winner is the establishment. My problem with unlimited immigration is the exploitation by the establishment in order to increase profits.

NorthernGent


Said very succinctly and I agree wholeheartedly with you. The Native Americans believed we had rights to use what was on the land, but not to the land itself.

Also, I think that you have the same issue I have, which is the exploitation of desperate people to keep others from earning a better living.

_____________________________

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 11:23:34 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Ranger, agreed. Look at that "CAFTA" pos!
What are we (The US) going to be "trading" with Central American countries, coconuts?
They'll just be sweat shops down there cranking out cheap t-shirts (for sale in the US of course!) while paying the workers .16 cents per hour!
I wish the govt. would stop worrying about "the consumer".
I'm up to my friggin EARS in cheap, imported goods! I REALLY don't need anymore!
Gent, sorry but I have to disagree with you on the immigration thing!
If it were your way the earth would tip on it's axis from the weight of billions of people trying to get into the U.S.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 11:26:17 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

I guess what I’m saying is…. we can trade with other countries in way that we purchase their raw materials and then produce our own saleable products from them. We need fair trade not free trade as the globalist term it. One of these reasons we’ve went from the largest creditor nation to the largest debtor nation is because of such massive trade imbalance. And you know that history tells us that any nation-state that no longer produces what it consumes, has lost it way.    



The trade imbalance and deficit is not because of unfair trade but because of people living beyond their means and companies producing products people don't want to buy. Toyota is expected to take over GM as the biggest car manufacturer in the world, that is not because of unfair trade but because Toyota make products consumers around the world want and what a lot of Americans want.

Why is the American music and film industry successful? (and they are huge earners) Because they make products that people want to buy or would you kill these industries off because of retalitory trade actions rather than companies like GM being forced by the market to make products it can sell?

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 11:48:13 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Ranger, agreed. Look at that "CAFTA" pos!
What are we (The US) going to be "trading" with Central American countries, coconuts?
They'll just be sweat shops down there cranking out cheap t-shirts (for sale in the US of course!) while paying the workers .16 cents per hour!
I wish the govt. would stop worrying about "the consumer".
I'm up to my friggin EARS in cheap, imported goods! I REALLY don't need anymore!
Gent, sorry but I have to disagree with you on the immigration thing!
If it were your way the earth would tip on it's axis from the weight of billions of people trying to get into the U.S.


Popeye....

The absolute worst thing about subversive globalist treaties such as NAFTA, CAFTA, and GAT, was that they were originally as sold with the implication that they would increase the standard of living for the people in these poor third-world countries, thus reducing their need to illegally immigrate to the United States and placing a burden on our economic reality. But the only groups benefiting from these treaties are the elites in both countries. And the simple proof in what I say is the increased immigration from south of the border into this country.

I try to tell people all the time..... it isn't Democrat vs. Republican or Liberal  vs. Conservative - it's the very small number of elites against the very large number of non-elites. And the most devious trick in the book used by them is that they get many of the non-elites { or Pseudo-elites} to believe that they are actually part of the power structure, but their not!!

I challenge anyone to take a good look at history, it's been repeated and happened throughout the ages - It’s modern day neo-feudalism in disguise.



 - R



_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 12:30:26 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

The trade imbalance and deficit is not because of unfair trade but because of people living beyond their means and companies producing products people don't want to buy.


If that were true then why is a large contingent of our staples, food-stuffs, now starting to be imported from Mexico? Why has certain globalist elements of congress tried to enact legislation that prohibits the American consumer {Through labels} from knowing that some of the hamburger that was ground-up in the package is actually from Guatemala?  Again... it's all rooted in exploited, cheap/slave labor. Would you make the argument that a bag of Doritos’s is now being manufactured down in Mexico because it tastes better because its from South of the border?

quote:

Why is the American music and film industry successful? (and they are huge earners) Because they make products that people want to buy or would you kill these industries off because of retalitory trade actions rather than companies like GM being forced by the market to make products it can sell?



 GM is on its way out the door because of poor management /long range planning and a very greedy unionized work force, not because it makes a bad product. The price of fuel has killed/ played a large part in decline in sales of SUV's and commercial vehicles. I agree though that the Japanese model, though copied, is a much more efficient model than the big three. So in that regard... over indulgence has played a part, albeit small



 - R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 7/14/2006 12:35:49 PM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 12:46:54 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		julia,

Based on your last post I think we have a very similar viewpoint.

The Government is exploiting Mexicans who are guilty of nothing more than just looking for an improved standard living and of brain-washing Americans to think the Mexicans are the threat to their standard of living.

One thing to remember, the Mexicans do not create and pass policy in the US. The US is governed by white Americans, they dictate policy and, by extension, the US. So, if anyone is unhappy with the way the US is being ran, then the finger of blame should be pointed at Bush and his cronies, not the Mexicans.

NorthernGent

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 1:02:04 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Gent, wrong, the finger should be pointed at all of us Americans for putting up with that crap in Washington.
In the U.S. "The People" are the "Management".
The people in office in Washington are the "hired help."


Ranger, I agree with all the above!
And where are all those "High Paying Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" were passed?
Funny thing about "NAFTA"; it required a 2/3 vote (67 votes) in the Senate to pass.
It only got 61 votes and somehow Clinton pushed it through anyway which means it's Illegal.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 1:08:12 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		popeye,

Agreed. A people gets the polticians it deserves. So, we're both saying the Mexicans are blameless in this. Good :-)

NorthernGent.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 1:23:26 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		No, we're Both not saying that the Mexicans are blameless.
Each and every person who sneaks into this country is guilty of a Federal Felony.
The Mexicans by virtue of geography are the biggest offenders.
The Mexicans are guilty of not fixing their own country.
The reason that the U.S. is such a desirable country is because we are a country of laws just like Great Britain.
Once those laws go so does the country.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 1:24:37 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		P.S. Gent, nice try.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 9:40:22 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		popeye,

We will never see eye to eye on this. My political views are firmly rooted in the ideology of the left, I can see yours are not.

One point, people follow work - whether or not a country has a strong legal system is irrelevant. It sounds like North Americans are like the British - we assume everyone wants to come to our countries because they are special in some way. They're not really, the attraction is simply material wealth.

If you sat down and analysed some of things that go on in the US and the UK you'd be scratching your head for weeks wondering how some of these things are allowed to happen. There's nothing special about slaughtering people all over the globe.

NorthernGent

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 9:50:41 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Gent, I agree with you there.
I also don't believe in Imperialism but that means no help as well, neither financial nor military to foreign countries.
And it seems that your philosophy is more rooted in socialism than "the left."
Your former Prime Minister Winston Churchill (whom I greatly admire!) had a saying about socialism but it escapes me now.
Also,  you do have more right to be in England than someone from a foreign country; you're a British *Subject*, like it or not!

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/14/2006 10:45:48 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

No, we're Both not saying that the Mexicans are blameless.
Each and every person who sneaks into this country is guilty of a Federal Felony.
The Mexicans by virtue of geography are the biggest offenders.
The Mexicans are guilty of not fixing their own country.
The reason that the U.S. is such a desirable country is because we are a country of laws just like Great Britain.
Once those laws go so does the country.


We could do with a little fixing of our own, such as fixing our trade agreements with Mexico which has been bad for both American and Mexican workers.

I also think that we should look at our relationships with many other countries, such as Iraq, we seem to have caused them a multitude of problems, as if they did not have enough before we invaded them.

American corporations do a lot of evil in this world, I wish people would understand this before they blame workers, illegal or not... I have always said this and I mean it from the bottom of my heart.. Children are children no matter what country they are born in... American kids or Mexican kids, it doesn't matter to me. We really need to start looking at people as human beings and not as nationalities. I doubt very highly if people would turn away a starving child because of geography if confronted face to face with them, illegal or not. Why so much stress on where someone is from? If you want the immigration problem to be fixed, maybe you should pressure corporations that abuse workers worldwide. Maybe punish corporations caught hiring illegals by boycotting their products.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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