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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 3:40:26 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I think that teachers should do what they are trained to do and doctors too. I do not think that they should be used as a tool the INS. Proposition 187 tried to make these people INS agents and I believe that was part of the reason it was repealed.

Respectfully ownedgirlie, part of the reason the teachers union was against it was because it could have caused teachers/administrators their jobs to inaccurately report who was in the school illegally. I would not be for something that my ass could be on the line because I didn't do someone else's job.

As far as driver's licenses... I do not want to be on the road with people that did not take the driver's test and pass it... it is a saftey issue.

Im not a nationalistic person. I see kids as kids. I do not want to see one go hungry or ignorant, or without medical care.. regardless of where they are from or their "legal" status. I was born here, doesn't mean I am more valuable than they are.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 3:43:28 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

I'm glad to hear that you all feel so strongly on this boycotting of exploitative corporations...like Tricon. Surely you took action, instead of just spouting hot air on an internet forum.

Where exactly did you say you took part in the protests, marches, petitions, picketing, lobbying and so forth?

Because if you are in fact 'walking the walk', and not just gossiping, we most certainly would have met at one of those by now.

After all, Si se puede, right?


Why are you attacking me? Im not allowed to an opinion? I have nothing to prove to you as far as my activism goes. And it is very doubtful that you will ever encounter me at a protest as I haven't seen you post about my major issue, which is the Iraq War, that is the only issue I have protested over or joined a group about. No, I am not posting the names of the groups I belong to on a public message BDSM board, and it is none of your business.

I will reiterate what I always do, the only opinion on this board that matters to me is Sinergy's, anyone that follows me from thread to thread to single me out for attack can go do strange things with a fork to themselves for all I care... you really aren't important, nor is your opinion (to me that is).

Irishbynature has seen pictures I have taken at protests I have attended, has spoken with people I have attended protests with and has been involved with phone campaigns with me. I started protesting George Bush from the first day he was elected...I met Irishbynature in a political forum.. Not that is matters a hill of beans.. I would be allowed an opinion anyways.



So posting as to ways to help find solutions is 'attacking you'? 
Get over yourself, your claims of victimhood are unconvincing.

You could easily choose to not turn  threads into such drama fests, but you do it regularly...why is that?. For the same reason that you feel compelled to post your opinions as though they were facts?  .

These are real people and your attempt to use their lives to make yourself the center of attention is quite offputting...and it is very telling that you invariably try to turn any corrections into personal swipes and trite homilies about not caring if you are wrong.

You haven't even bothered to get the most basic of facts right, and are once again in attack mode against anyone who is actually informed or involved...much as you do with many of your 'contributions'. 


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 3:52:13 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		If you did not mean it as an attack, well good on you dude... funny, I still think it was so I will refer you to my last post in your direction and leave it at that..I have a strong personality, I know it. I just won't read you from now on because I find many of your contributions not so edifying.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 3:58:03 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I respect your views, Julia, and would be interested in your thoughts on the other questions I asked. 

As for teachers doing what they are trained to do...I agree.  This is why I have always been against the idea of them having to raise children for parents by providing disciplines that kids do not receive at home, and why I have been against the ideas of putting it on teachers to dole out medications such as Ritalin to kids during the day, and why I was aghast at discovering a teacher I know in the San Francisco Unified School District had to buy her own supplies (copy paper, etc.) out of her own pocket.  So many issues to get on the bandwagon about.  When I see statements like "Teachers should focus on what they are trained to do" I wonder if all of these other things are considered, as well.  Teachers report which students are in class and which are not, every day.  At the time of enrollment, data is collected on each student, and it is that time when it would be determined whether a student is a citizen, has a green card, or is here illegally.  The teachers do not make that distinction, according to my understanding.

The same applies with doctors.  It is the good folks that register the patients into the facility (doctors offices, hospitals, etc.) who ask for insurance information or method of payment, etc.  I propose it is unethical to turn away an ailing patient, so perhaps we could gather statistical data and send a bill to Presidente Fox...???

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 4:10:48 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I would agree about teachers spending money on supplies out of pocket. I know my son's teachers did so, because I worked as a volunteer in the classroom. I felt it was important to give back what was being given not only to myself, but my son. I agree about parents raising their own children.

If I were you I would have responded with the fact that both teachers and doctors are mandated to report abuse. I was thinking you were going to ask if it was ok for them to enforce laws in this case, why not be INS agents....

My response would have been as follows (answering my own question..smiles):

Doctors are there to treat patients, they take an oath and they should not make people fear being medically treated by ratting them out. It would possibly cause more trouble to keep sick people from obtaining medical care rather than provide it. Think about immunizations and other communicable diseases like TB, which left unprevented/untreated could become a nightmare for US citizens. It makes sense that you would want illegals not to spread disease for your own sake!

In the case of schools and teachers, I just cannot fathom not teaching kids, it just seems to have deep wrongness to me. I do not want kids to grow up ignorant. I have this deep love of little ones. I spend time with the Mexican community here when I get the chance... going to farmer's markets that are primarily Hispanic. I love the culture. It is bright and vivid and alive, full of passion! I think about how we punish poor people for being poor by making them scapegoats instead of looking at who really has the power to change things, and it isn't the illegals, they are a symptom of the problem.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 5:07:59 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		"A society is judged by how they treat the poorest among us."

Gent, Illegal Aliens are not "our people."
If you want to "judge" anyone judge Mexico for not taking care of their own people not making excuses for them!
Everyone seems willing to "judge" the U.S. but not the countries that these illegals come from!
And as for how the "rest of the world would judge the U.S. for deporting 11 million people" who cares?
It's really none of their business.
How would another country like it if there were 11 million illegal alien Americans in their country committing violent crimes and stealing benefits meant for their citizens?
One time when I was in Ireland and I was talking to a Garda (Police) on the street. I asked him what would happen if I overstayed the ninety days on my passport that I was allowed to remain in Ireland for. (This was before I aquired Irish Citizenship.)
He replied, "Well we'd come around for you and take you down to Shannon and put you on a plane for Boston."
And they'd be right to do it under Irish Law.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 5:29:47 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I do not have a "people" popeye, we are all the human race

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 6:53:53 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Julia, correct and we were all born in one particular country or another.
Why should I as an American have to put up with illegal aliens in my country?
They don't put up with it in theirs.
They don't need to be in the U.S. to be human beings.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 9:08:48 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		You made this point on page one, and I answered it.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 9:22:04 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
In the 50s....I think it was the 50s, there was a program in place, although I can not recall its name.  Immigrants without papers were allowed to come into California for a window of time - 3 months, I think - to work the farms.  Farming communities would sponsor these folks and hire them, and they would go back home to their families with their earned money for a period of time, and the cycle would begin again. We decided it wasn't good for our state and ceased the program.  That's about the time the illegal immigration issues began increasing. 


Thank you for posting some actual on-point information about this issue. It brings to mind that this issue may need to be discussed regionally, and may not have a blanket or national solution. Some in my state seem to think that losing illegal farm workers would kill the economy in the southern half of the state. It would be nice to know the reality.
 
Either way, it's nice to discuss this with actual subtance.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 9:55:32 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
In the 50s....I think it was the 50s, there was a program in place, although I can not recall its name.  Immigrants without papers were allowed to come into California for a window of time - 3 months, I think - to work the farms.  Farming communities would sponsor these folks and hire them, and they would go back home to their families with their earned money for a period of time, and the cycle would begin again. We decided it wasn't good for our state and ceased the program.  That's about the time the illegal immigration issues began increasing. 


Thank you for posting some actual on-point information about this issue. It brings to mind that this issue may need to be discussed regionally, and may not have a blanket or national solution. Some in my state seem to think that losing illegal farm workers would kill the economy in the southern half of the state. It would be nice to know the reality.
 
Either way, it's nice to discuss this with actual subtance.


If you get picked up for possession of cocaine, you could argue that in the early part of the 20th century it was a legal ingredient of coca cola. The argument would have no impact on your sentence and would be as relevant as the treatment of farm workers in the 50's is to the current issue of illegal aliens.

How is this:
quote:

Immigration laws may or may not promote the common good, and may or may not protect citizens. Some people feel that open immigration would be very good for the United States, in that it would provide a large pool of cheap labor.
you're answer from the first page an "answer" to the fact that these people are here illegally? So, because your strawberries are cheap that rationalizes law breaking?

"May or may not promote the common good" is an excuse for amnesty for law breakers? Union plumbers, and other construction workers in CA wouldn't think there is any "good" in the "common" practice of picking up and hiring an illegal at $25 per day for a job they, as US citizens, have the skill to do but don't get the opportunity.

Opening the borders would be a great opportunity for employers and exploiters but what of the majority of American citizens who don't fall into those categories? Or are you in agreement with President Bush's administration position that these are jobs that no US citizen wants?

Once again, I hope all on this side of the issue have sent letters of support to President Bush in his attempt to make your preference on this issue reality.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 10:21:24 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
In the 50s....I think it was the 50s, there was a program in place, although I can not recall its name.  Immigrants without papers were allowed to come into California for a window of time - 3 months, I think - to work the farms.  Farming communities would sponsor these folks and hire them, and they would go back home to their families with their earned money for a period of time, and the cycle would begin again. We decided it wasn't good for our state and ceased the program.  That's about the time the illegal immigration issues began increasing. 


Thank you for posting some actual on-point information about this issue. It brings to mind that this issue may need to be discussed regionally, and may not have a blanket or national solution. Some in my state seem to think that losing illegal farm workers would kill the economy in the southern half of the state. It would be nice to know the reality.
 
Either way, it's nice to discuss this with actual subtance.


Here's some information on it.  I remembered the name: The Bracero Program.  It  was in place in California and Texas.  It ran from 1942 to 1964.

http://www.farmworkers.org/bracerop.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracero_Program

President Bush proposed re-instigating this program in conjunction with President Vicente Fox, of Mexico, in 2000/2001.  It was put on hold after September 11th.  He began talks of it again in 2004.


< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 7/17/2006 10:22:33 PM >

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 11:17:05 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
In the 50s....I think it was the 50s, there was a program in place, although I can not recall its name.  Immigrants without papers were allowed to come into California for a window of time - 3 months, I think - to work the farms.  Farming communities would sponsor these folks and hire them, and they would go back home to their families with their earned money for a period of time, and the cycle would begin again. We decided it wasn't good for our state and ceased the program.  That's about the time the illegal immigration issues began increasing. 


Thank you for posting some actual on-point information about this issue. It brings to mind that this issue may need to be discussed regionally, and may not have a blanket or national solution. Some in my state seem to think that losing illegal farm workers would kill the economy in the southern half of the state. It would be nice to know the reality.
 
Either way, it's nice to discuss this with actual subtance.


If you get picked up for possession of cocaine, you could argue that in the early part of the 20th century it was a legal ingredient of coca cola. The argument would have no impact on your sentence and would be as relevant as the treatment of farm workers in the 50's is to the current issue of illegal aliens.

How is this:
quote:

Immigration laws may or may not promote the common good, and may or may not protect citizens. Some people feel that open immigration would be very good for the United States, in that it would provide a large pool of cheap labor.
you're answer from the first page an "answer" to the fact that these people are here illegally? So, because your strawberries are cheap that rationalizes law breaking?

"May or may not promote the common good" is an excuse for amnesty for law breakers? Union plumbers, and other construction workers in CA wouldn't think there is any "good" in the "common" practice of picking up and hiring an illegal at $25 per day for a job they, as US citizens, have the skill to do but don't get the opportunity.

Opening the borders would be a great opportunity for employers and exploiters but what of the majority of American citizens who don't fall into those categories? Or are you in agreement with President Bush's administration position that these are jobs that no US citizen wants?

Once again, I hope all on this side of the issue have sent letters of support to President Bush in his attempt to make your preference on this issue reality.


Merc....

If she had yours and my property tax bills.... and then realized that you don't get very much for whatcha pay, her reality would change instantly.


JMHO


 - R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 7/17/2006 11:19:12 PM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 11:53:01 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Just wondering--what do you do for fun, Alumbrado?  You sound like someone who needs to have more fun.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

So posting as to ways to help find solutions is 'attacking you'? 
Get over yourself, your claims of victimhood are unconvincing.

You could easily choose to not turn  threads into such drama fests, but you do it regularly...why is that?. For the same reason that you feel compelled to post your opinions as though they were facts?  .

These are real people and your attempt to use their lives to make yourself the center of attention is quite offputting...and it is very telling that you invariably try to turn any corrections into personal swipes and trite homilies about not caring if you are wrong.

You haven't even bothered to get the most basic of facts right, and are once again in attack mode against anyone who is actually informed or involved...much as you do with many of your 'contributions'. 

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 12:29:00 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger
Merc....

If she had yours and my property tax bills.... and then realized that you don't get very much for whatcha pay, her reality would change instantly.


JMHO


- R


I do not know who the "she" is that you are referring to, but since I am in the compilation of quotes you referenced, I will simply say I do own my own home (I'm just not living in it right now) and I do pay property taxes in California.  Fortunately my house is on County property so I don't have all the city taxes in addition to the state taxes, nor do I live in a Mello Roos area. 

Having owned three vehicles at the time, I was relieved when Arnold circumvented our previous leaders plans to triple our auto registration.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 7/18/2006 12:30:45 AM >

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 6:59:41 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Here's some information on it.  I remembered the name: The Bracero Program.  It  was in place in California and Texas.  It ran from 1942 to 1964.

http://www.farmworkers.org/bracerop.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracero_Program

President Bush proposed re-instigating this program in conjunction with President Vicente Fox, of Mexico, in 2000/2001.  It was put on hold after September 11th.  He began talks of it again in 2004.



Various 'guestworker' programs have been around under different names since the 1920s, if memory serves... prior to that time Chinese laborers and sharecroppers occupied the same rung of the labor ladder, and prior to that, slavery filled the need.

This is not some new idea invented or even revived by the current administration, most people have just been happy to ignore it until now.
Both parties, are/were perfectly happy to have immigrants supporting the economy in those jobs, they just want to eat their cake and have it too, by supporting it, while blasting their opponents for also supporting it.  Once the elections are over, and it is no longer useful campaign fodder, it will be silently passed in the middle of the night, buried in some appropriations bill..

The current guestworker plan applies to other people besides Mexican nationals, and would contain an almost impossible hurdle to ever attain citizenship, while ensuring a regular supply of workers at the lowest levels of pay.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 7:13:25 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Actually they began around 1916.  To call what we did to the Chinese "guest working," is absurd, however.  Anyone who does might want to review history. 

I do agree with you that the guest worker program has now become a political issue to be debated between both major parties, simply for the sport of debate.  "The other side" proposed it so it must be bad.  Pfffft.  

Your last sentence makes so sense to me, however.  Guest worker programs were not designed, in the past, to develop toward citizenship.  Are you proposing they should now?  Are you suggesting the better way is to have poverty-stricken individuals cross the border in the middle of the night, risking their lives to do so, so that they can later claim amnesty when our government once again sees the problem is too great to resolve?

Edited to add a missing word.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 7/18/2006 7:39:02 AM >

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 7:17:56 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
"May or may not promote the common good" is an excuse for amnesty for law breakers?


"May or may not promote the common good.", means exactly what it says. It isn't a call for amnisty, only a call to determine what actually promotes the common good.
 
No, I'm not in agreement with President Bush's position. The only position I support is to openly, honestly and objectively look at this issue, before we come to a decision.
 
I hear what you are saying about the impact of these workers in California. Trust me, we hear the exact opposite message here in Texas. My foster father is on the very far right ... he makes you look like a liberal ... and he is completely against closing our border with Mexico. He believes that it would destroy the economy in south Texas. Listening to Congressman Ron Paul, he is of the opinion that we need a more workable solution then the "build a wall" solution that many are presenting.
 
Those are two people older and wiser then me, that seem to think this issue needs more clarification. I would bet you are older and wiser then me, and believe me, I fully respect your opinion. I respect ownedgirlie's opinion also ... she is probably also older and wiser then me.
 
That's four older and wiser people, some of which have contrasting opinions. Sounds like a good case for gathering more information, if you ask me.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 7:21:02 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

To call what we did to the Chinese "guest working," is absurd, however.  Anyone who might want to review history. 



The railroads were built with Chinese laborers, brought and kept here under indefensible conditions...and you are the only one linking the term guestworker to that.

Why would you would knowingly fabricate the lie that I said that? 

Or pretend that I support the current proposal?

Can't stand the thought that there are people actually working to make things better, so you fabricate hateful deceptions on the internet to derail any useful discussion, while passing your Googling off as you being some sort of expert?

Sick.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 7/18/2006 7:23:59 AM >

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 7:37:10 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

To call what we did to the Chinese "guest working," is absurd, however.  Anyone who might want to review history. 



The railroads were built with Chinese laborers, brought and kept here under indefensible conditions...and you are the only one linking the term guestworker to that.

Why would you would knowingly fabricate the lie that I said that? 

Or pretend that I support the current proposal?

Can't stand the thought that there are people actually working to make things better, so you fabricate hateful deceptions on the internet to derail any useful discussion, while passing your Googling off as you being some sort of expert?

Sick.


"Various 'guestworker' programs have been around under different names since the 1920s, if memory serves... prior to that time Chinese laborers and sharecroppers occupied the same rung of the labor ladder, and prior to that, slavery filled the need. "

Huh?  What lie did I fabricate?  Those are your words above..."guestworker" and "Chinese laborers" in the same sentence.  Have some coffee, my friend.  It is early yet.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 140
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