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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 11:46:21 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I see no reason to keep these people out. They come here to work. People here employ them ... the need on both sides is obvious.

Well said. I feel the same about illegals in Europe. If there was no work they wouldn't come and even if the do send money home it improves the economy back home which is the only to stop more people trying to enter illegally.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 11:48:00 AM

ownedgirlie

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Then the question is, do we keep our borders open to anybody and everybody, always? Should we all subside on sales tax only? For those making their money "under the table," how much reasonable disposable income do they have to spend that would contribute effectively to our economy?

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 12:05:14 PM

juliaoceania

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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I don't see employers as the sole culprit or the sole reason illegals enter this state. Many cross the border to come to a California hospital, and then return home. Many actually claim and receive wellfare, and are NOT working at all. Yes employers are a culprit, and that is why the INS cracks down on them so heavily now, but they are not the sole culprit.

As for the educational system, I believe the LA County schools are in much different shape that those in Central California (and I'm jealous if you live on the Central Coast, btw!).

The point of Prop 187 is it was trying to enforce laws already in place in this state - Crossing the Border without papers is illegal. Period. The vast majority of residents spoke up about it, but their voices were not heard.

The issue, in my opinion, is not about a particular race. If this country were suddenly infiltrated with refugees from other third world countries at the rate California is infiltrated with residents of Mexico, we would have the same debates. Entering legally allows for screening of diseases we haven't seen in this country in ages, along with having controlled measures in place to keep track of who is here and utilizing what services.

Interesting point worth mulling, about anchor babies...

Seriously, the Hmong immigrated to the same city that my son was born and in the same year as LEGAL immigrants, and there was still this debate about THEM being a burden on hospitals and welfare and educational systems.. no it is not about Mexicans or about illegals..it is about politics of difference and what people perceive as a burden on their tax dollars.

On edit, who was supposed to catch illegals using schools and hospitals???? Teachers and doctors and nurses.. I have read the proposition and remember it distinctly.. I also remember teachers union coming out against it.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/17/2006 12:07:00 PM >

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Post #: 103

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 12:37:38 PM

caitlyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
Then the question is, do we keep our borders open to anybody and everybody, always? Should we all subside on sales tax only? For those making their money "under the table," how much reasonable disposable income do they have to spend that would contribute effectively to our economy?

All good question.

I'm not sure if we should keep our borders open or not. What I am pretty sure of, is that we need to stop making this a political football and have an open discussion about what is best for our country.

The problem is that we are not having that right now. What we are having is statistics thrown in our face by various groups, that are not accurate and play the same old tired "Blame Game", that is probably getting very annoying to any reasonable citizen of this country.

It shouldn't be that difficult to cruch some real numbers, so we can make an informed decision.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 12:43:19 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

I see no reason to keep these people out. They come here to work. People here employ them ... the need on both sides is obvious.

Why drive on the left side of the road?
Why can't I just take what I want from a store?
Why can't I go through red lights?
Why can't I walk into my neighbor's home and move in?
Why can't woman walk around topless like men?
Why can't I grind up puppies and kittens to use as chum?
Why should people who employ illegal aliens be put in prison?
Why can't I import heroin to sell?
Why can't I light a fire on the beach in Redondo?
Why couldn't I light off a bottle rocket in Palos Verdes on the 4th of July?

10 questions among millions with the same answer throughout the US...

It's ILLEGAL!

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 1:09:24 PM

UtopianRanger

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All I know is that whenever I see myself participating in pyramid scheme I quickly try to dissolve myself of it. As someone involved with neither party.... maybe it comes down to those of us who just believe in oversight and accountability and understand that the math just isn’t there to support what’s currently happening. Hell.... maybe it’s even about tax brackets - I'm sick and tired of paying all these excessive taxes for people and programs that are a drain on society.

What ever happened to situational ethics? The titanic is sinking...there’s only one lifeboat ; we need to keep the cop, the doctor, the mechanic and the social worker - We just don't have any more room for the illegal alien.

- R

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Post #: 106

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 1:26:55 PM

caitlyn

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Does thirty-point, red, type somehow make others bend to your opinion?

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 1:39:51 PM

NakisisaX

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakisisaX

why would someone blame the so-called "immigrants" when the corporations are immigrant owned and operated?

ILLEGAL ALIENS Not Immigrants. Removing criminals from their society is the right of any sovereign nation.

of course you'd say that, otherwise this country wouldn't be where it is today. but consider the very laws you bring up were also made, amended, and manipulated by illegal aliens.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 1:44:23 PM

Lordandmaster

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How about...

Why can't I hire illegal aliens to work in my company for a fraction of what I'd pay an American citizen or legal resident?

It's illegal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

I see no reason to keep these people out. They come here to work. People here employ them ... the need on both sides is obvious.

Why drive on the left side of the road?
Why can't I just take what I want from a store?
Why can't I go through red lights?
Why can't I walk into my neighbor's home and move in?
Why can't woman walk around topless like men?
Why can't I grind up puppies and kittens to use as chum?
Why should people who employ illegal aliens be put in prison?
Why can't I import heroin to sell?
Why can't I light a fire on the beach in Redondo?
Why couldn't I light off a bottle rocket in Palos Verdes on the 4th of July?

10 questions among millions with the same answer throughout the US...

It's ILLEGAL!

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

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Post #: 109

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 2:02:54 PM

Moloch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Does thirty-point, red, type somehow make others bend to your opinion?

No it annoys know it all's

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 2:23:06 PM

Alumbrado

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I'm glad to hear that you all feel so strongly on this boycotting of exploitative corporations...like Tricon. Surely you took action, instead of just spouting hot air on an internet forum.

Where exactly did you say you took part in the protests, marches, petitions, picketing, lobbying and so forth?

Because if you are in fact 'walking the walk', and not just gossiping, we most certainly would have met at one of those by now.

After all, Si se puede, right?

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 7/17/2006 2:24:44 PM >

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 2:32:15 PM

popeye1250

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Caitlyn, as for discussions all the Polls show that more than ninety percent of Americans want our borders secured and for our immigration laws to be strictly enforced.
The people in Washington know this but Bush won't do anything about it because he's beholden to his paymasters in big corporations.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 3:02:33 PM

meatcleaver

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Imagine what the US would look like to the rest of the world if it kicked out 11 million illegal immigrants. It can't really do it and Bush's amnesty is the only realistic option. As for securing its borders, I don't think even the USSR managesd that, except people wanted to get out not in.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 3:04:40 PM

juliaoceania

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Joined: 4/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

I'm glad to hear that you all feel so strongly on this boycotting of exploitative corporations...like Tricon. Surely you took action, instead of just spouting hot air on an internet forum.

Where exactly did you say you took part in the protests, marches, petitions, picketing, lobbying and so forth?

Because if you are in fact 'walking the walk', and not just gossiping, we most certainly would have met at one of those by now.

After all, Si se puede, right?

Why are you attacking me? Im not allowed to an opinion? I have nothing to prove to you as far as my activism goes. And it is very doubtful that you will ever encounter me at a protest as I haven't seen you post about my major issue, which is the Iraq War, that is the only issue I have protested over or joined a group about. No, I am not posting the names of the groups I belong to on a public message BDSM board, and it is none of your business.

I will reiterate what I always do, the only opinion on this board that matters to me is Sinergy's, anyone that follows me from thread to thread to single me out for attack can go do strange things with a fork to themselves for all I care... you really aren't important, nor is your opinion (to me that is).

Irishbynature has seen pictures I have taken at protests I have attended, has spoken with people I have attended protests with and has been involved with phone campaigns with me. I started protesting George Bush from the first day he was elected...I met Irishbynature in a political forum.. Not that is matters a hill of beans.. I would be allowed an opinion anyways.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 3:07:04 PM

caitlyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Caitlyn, as for discussions all the Polls show that more than ninety percent of Americans want our borders secured and for our immigration laws to be strictly enforced.
The people in Washington know this but Bush won't do anything about it because he's beholden to his paymasters in big corporations.

I'm shocked that this number isn't higher, considering how many people are using this issue to promote their own agenda.

I'm having a hard time understand why people on your side of this issue, seem completely unwilling to even talk about this from any other point of view then a hard line one ... one that may, or may not be good for this country. Don't you want to do what is right for this country?

Don't you want to know what will happen to farm prices if we closed the border?

Don't you want to know if it's going to be very harmful to businesses that use this sort of labor? I mean, a lot of actual American citizens might lose their jobs over this. Don't we want to know how many, and what it will cost?

I've looked and looked and can't find any objective studies done on this. Everything you read is just numbers spun to support a position that is pre-determined.

It seems like the smart play to me ... determining what will happen before we do it ... and if the result is bad, maybe we should rethink.

If the determination is that we should close our borders, then sign me up ... but lets not make the decision first, then hope it was the right one. That just makes no sense.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 3:31:36 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Seriously, the Hmong immigrated to the same city that my son was born and in the same year as LEGAL immigrants, and there was still this debate about THEM being a burden on hospitals and welfare and educational systems.. no it is not about Mexicans or about illegals..it is about politics of difference and what people perceive as a burden on their tax dollars.

Do think they are a burden? Not a burden? Do you think there need to be measures in place to control the influx of people escaping their countries to ours? Do you feel we can absorb them in without compromising our own standard of life? I ask, not to challenge, but to understand your thoughts.

quote:

On edit, who was supposed to catch illegals using schools and hospitals???? Teachers and doctors and nurses.. I have read the proposition and remember it distinctly.. I also remember teachers union coming out against it.

Do you believe hospital services and education should be available, free of charge, to those who are here illegally? If so, how do we absorb the costs? If not, how do you propose we "catch" them in such systems? I don't believe it is teachers, per se. Teachers provide student rosters to administrators and administrators report the data. Perhaps such data could be reported to INS. Do you think the bill could be rewritten with corrections, as opposed to tossing out the entire idea because of an execution flaw?

Teachers unions may have been against the bill. There are 4 teachers in my family, all of whom supported it. Remember, teachers unions are not necessarily indicative of what the majority teachers think in all cases.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 3:31:57 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Does thirty-point, red, type somehow make others bend to your opinion?

No - Still waiting for someone to address the point instead of ignoring it.

I just wanted to be sure you and the others weren't hard of reading.

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 3:33:08 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
Then the question is, do we keep our borders open to anybody and everybody, always? Should we all subside on sales tax only? For those making their money "under the table," how much reasonable disposable income do they have to spend that would contribute effectively to our economy?

All good question.

I'm not sure if we should keep our borders open or not. What I am pretty sure of, is that we need to stop making this a political football and have an open discussion about what is best for our country.

The problem is that we are not having that right now. What we are having is statistics thrown in our face by various groups, that are not accurate and play the same old tired "Blame Game", that is probably getting very annoying to any reasonable citizen of this country.

It shouldn't be that difficult to cruch some real numbers, so we can make an informed decision.

~ Smiles ~ Maybe China was onto something , with their Great Wall. How high can we build?

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 3:35:15 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Imagine what the US would look like to the rest of the world if it kicked out 11 million illegal immigrants. It can't really do it and Bush's amnesty is the only realistic option. As for securing its borders, I don't think even the USSR managesd that, except people wanted to get out not in.

Is it just me or does it seem we grant amnesty every few years? Surely there must be a better way...

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RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/17/2006 3:39:40 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
Don't you want to know if it's going to be very harmful to businesses that use this sort of labor? I mean, a lot of actual American citizens might lose their jobs over this. Don't we want to know how many, and what it will cost?

In the 50s....I think it was the 50s, there was a program in place, although I can not recall its name. Immigrants without papers were allowed to come into California for a window of time - 3 months, I think - to work the farms. Farming communities would sponsor these folks and hire them, and they would go back home to their families with their earned money for a period of time, and the cycle would begin again. We decided it wasn't good for our state and ceased the program. That's about the time the illegal immigration issues began increasing.

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