RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans

Page: << < prev 6 7 [8] 9 10 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 7:47:04 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

To add a bit further, Alumbrado, I knew people who employed Braceros before Google existed. And when did I claim to be an expert? Researching something and sharing it just means I have gone out to gather more information - something many folks could stand to do before making definitive statements, wouldn't you agree?

And if I misunderstood your connection then say so, as opposed to replying with a combative attitude that does nothing to further any "useful discussion." To say prior to the Chinese there was slavery implies that the Chinese laborers were not enslaved.

As to whether or not I know or care whether or not you support the current proposal - I don't. So there is nothing to pretend because your thoughts on this subject no longer have relevance to me. I do not lend credibility to knee-jerk, combative reactions.

Now, please do enjoy your coffee.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 141

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 8:07:11 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

No, I'm not in agreement with President Bush's position. The only position I support is to openly, honestly and objectively look at this issue, before we come to a decision.

I hear what you are saying about the impact of these workers in California. Trust me, we hear the exact opposite message here in Texas. My foster father is on the very far right ... he makes you look like a liberal ... and he is completely against closing our border with Mexico. He believes that it would destroy the economy in south Texas. Listening to Congressman Ron Paul, he is of the opinion that we need a more workable solution then the "build a wall" solution that many are presenting
.

caitlyn,
It's been a while since I pointed out the biggest problem I have with this issue. It isn't the origin of the people involved, it isn't the political party or the politics, it isn't any racial prejudice, and it isn't any personal economic investment. This issue represents a symptom of a disease that will eventually destroy the US or at least make it unrecognizable from it's founders' vision. It's a matter of hypocrisy.

Credibility can not exist when hypocrisy is present. Personally I see it as the one 'sin' that can't be forgiven. Selective enforcement of laws make all laws less enforceable. Seductively making some people more equal than others through AA makes all people less equal. Rationalization by government justifies rationalization by it's people. Your father may represent himself as "far right" but it's a self label of comfort, similar to a self-professed slave or sub who "submits" through a list of allowed activities to a facilitating dom. What they call themselves is irrelevant. There actions and attitude speak to what they are.

Why did I make "Illegal" so bold and red? Because it should be all that matters on this issue. We are becoming a society where opinions have as much validity as laws. It's a consequence of becoming more educated, or having access to more information; combined with a huge decrease in other sources of morality formerly provided by the belief in a god. Without the fear of consequence there is no incentive to obey. When the government has the same attitude concerning it's laws it creates a similar no incentive to obey environment.

Two faced hypocrites and hypocritical positions should be avoided at all costs.

btw - Never assume that a person's age isn't an indication of wisdom.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 142

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 8:17:35 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

Laws that don't work are usually bad laws. One has to work with the grain of human nature and human activity. There is the option of building and filling up more prisons of course but why lock people up that aren't a danger to society? I would have thought draconian laws are more against the grain of the founding fathers than keeping out enterprising and productive people.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 143

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 8:24:48 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Laws that don't work are usually bad laws. One has to work with the grain of human nature and human activity. There is the option of building and filling up more prisons of course but why lock people up that aren't a danger to society? I would have thought draconian laws are more against the grain of the founding fathers than keeping out enterprising and productive people.

And yet at the same token, laws that are ignored and unenforced can not confirm validity or invalidity. Understanding your prison argument, one could say actual enforcement of the death penalty might resolve that problem....but that's for a different thread

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 144

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 8:40:30 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Laws that don't work are usually bad laws. One has to work with the grain of human nature and human activity. There is the option of building and filling up more prisons of course but why lock people up that aren't a danger to society? I would have thought draconian laws are more against the grain of the founding fathers than keeping out enterprising and productive people.

MC,
Your viewpoint parallels President Bush and, like him, ignores the obvious alternative. Eliminate the opportunity and you eliminate the need for prisons to fill up. Employers should be the focus not the employees being exploited. Arrest one employer and the rest won't be so ready to continue the practice. Without the incentive of work there is no illegal alien issue and the sovereignty of the country's borders will be more secure.

There is no majority seeking to eliminate this law, so even if the US were a democracy instead of a republic, the will of the people in tuned with the founding fathers intent would not change.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 145

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 9:30:16 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
It's been a while since I pointed out the biggest problem I have with this issue. It isn't the origin of the people involved, it isn't the political party or the politics, it isn't any racial prejudice, and it isn't any personal economic investment. This issue represents a symptom of a disease that will eventually destroy the US or at least make it unrecognizable from it's founders' vision. It's a matter of hypocrisy.

Credibility can not exist when hypocrisy is present. Personally I see it as the one 'sin' that can't be forgiven. Selective enforcement of laws make all laws less enforceable. Seductively making some people more equal than others through AA makes all people less equal. Rationalization by government justifies rationalization by it's people. Your father may represent himself as "far right" but it's a self label of comfort, similar to a self-professed slave or sub who "submits" through a list of allowed activities to a facilitating dom. What they call themselves is irrelevant. There actions and attitude speak to what they are.

Why did I make "Illegal" so bold and red? Because it should be all that matters on this issue. We are becoming a society where opinions have as much validity as laws. It's a consequence of becoming more educated, or having access to more information; combined with a huge decrease in other sources of morality formerly provided by the belief in a god. Without the fear of consequence there is no incentive to obey. When the government has the same attitude concerning it's laws it creates a similar no incentive to obey environment.

Two faced hypocrites and hypocritical positions should be avoided at all costs.

btw - Never assume that a person's age isn't an indication of wisdom.

On the face, I agree with this, but am going to take it still further. You pointed out the law, and that it should be all that matters ... then make statements about hypocracy.

That's all fine and dandy, but some of us consider some of our laws to be the greatest hypocracy of all. You can't drink until you are twenty-one, but you can be called upon to die for your country at eighteen ... and don't even get me started on laws that are supposed to protect children from dangerous parents (actually you won't get me started, because it's an issue I just refuse to talk about). Enforcement of the drug laws in this country is beyond hypocritical: white people get treatment ... minorities get jail time. I'm sure we could point to many, many more.

So, I respect your opinion, but don't expect me to get all misty about the law. To me, the greatest hypocracy of all, is to blindly obey hypocritical and stupid laws. We are Americans. We are supposed to stand for more then being "good soldiers."

You mentioned a disease that will eventually destroy the United States. I have my own. It's the disease of becoming so polarized on an issue, that you are not even willing to discuss it openly and honestly. It's the disease that makes decisions, without first considering the results of the decision.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 7/18/2006 9:31:32 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 146

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 11:07:08 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

.... Those are your words above..."guestworker" and "Chinese laborers" in the same sentence.....

.....To say prior to the Chinese there was slavery implies that the Chinese were not enslaved

In no way shape or form does making a list of historical events, and mentioning different groups in that list 'imply' any such things.

It shows that those Chinese were not the same people as the African slaves brought over in the 1600s by the European slave trade.

But you knew that, you are (as I said), just being dishonest to derail the discussion into one of your keyboard commando tantrums, and focus all attention on you..

This isn't about your ego driven games, this is about real people and problems in the real world, and possible solutions.

Thanks for so clearly demonstrating that you think they are a joke.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 147

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 11:17:46 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

It shows that those Chinese were not the same people as the African slaves brought over in the 1600s by the European slave trade.

I think you are moving the goal posts somewhat here. The USA had slavery a long time after Britain and much of Europe. It might have been the European slave trde but the USA embraced slavery long after most Europeans.

Oh And the USA was still continuing the slave trade when the Royal Navy was fighting against the slave trade on the high seas.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/18/2006 11:22:11 AM >

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 148

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 11:20:04 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Alum, that's when I have a problem when people start using the word "World" and implying that the U.S. Taxpayer is somehow "responsable" for what goes on in other countries.
When someone sneaks into my country and starts using benefits that I'm PAYING for that's stealing.
You can't go through life taking responsibility for everything that happens.
If I were walking down the street and saw two guys comming out of a bar beating on each other I'm not going to go over and get involved.
Mexico is a foreign country that needs to take *responsibility* for it's own people, or not! I really don't care either way.
I just don't want them sneaking into my country.
It's not right and it's not right that our government is not putting a screaching halt to it.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 149

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 11:50:16 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I think you are moving the goal posts somewhat here. The USA had slavery a long time after Britain and much of Europe. It might have been the European slave trde but the USA embraced slavery long after most Europeans.

Oh And the USA was still continuing the slave trade when the Royal Navy was fighting against the slave trade on the high seas.

Sorry, but this still seems like a slight digression, although your posting history suggests that you do care about people and injustices, so I'm not lumping you in with the others for that.

Every society uses someone on the bottom rung to do the scut work. That role has been filled at different times in different places, by different groups of people, most of whom we can presume, would rather have been doing something else under better conditions.
Quite often, it was filled by literal slaves... a word not coined in the USA, a practice not started by the government of the USA, a practice outlawed by a Constitutional amendment in the USA, and a practice still flourishing today, under various guises, ranging from outright endorsement to a blind eye...in places like the Czech Republic, to Hong Kong... none of which are part of the 50 states making up the USA.

So no, I don't think it is moving the goalposts, to keep the focus on actual conditions here and now in the US, and try to forestall any overly simplified comparisons to all slavery being a product of the US, when it is in fact, a tradition elswhere around the world.

The current thread is about one group, the ones filling those 'bottom rung' roles in the American agricultural, housing, domestic, and other industries.

In this thread, they have been incorrectly labelled 'Mexicans', even though many of them come from other countries, and they have been incorrectly labelled as 'illegals', which is only one part of those people working in that layer of society.

And it would still be nice to know who is writing their legislators, informing themselves about the actual issues, and taking part in cohesive efforts to make thing better on this topic... in which, as you may guess, I have more than a passing interest.

My suspicion is that some of the people (again, not you MC) are busy stuffing their faces with the products produced by those at the bottom rung of society, and taking potshots on the internet at anyone who wants to make things better, while congratulating themselves for being 'liberal', and 'progressive'.

And lord only knows why I can't resist tearing into those hypocrites when I see them.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 150

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 12:29:47 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

they have been incorrectly labeled as 'illegals',

Alumbrando,
Explain how in this instance the label is "incorrect". The fact that they are in the country illegally is the only issue. Until now, nobody has argued that fact.

Until/unless someone's is able to build a time machine to address ancestral injustice the current situation is the focus. Currently these people and the people who hire them, are breaking the law. The form of the word 'illegals' to describe them may be a semantic point of convenience but it's short for the fact that they are here illegally.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 151

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 12:39:56 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

The thread title and topic is 'Blame the employers'. And in that context, it is the employers as well as those who benefit from the low costs, who are posited to be the problem, not just those who occupy those jobs.
Stemming the flow of illegal immigrants vs. having an open border is tangential to the OP, and it is the 'employment' aspect of the OP I'm sticking to.

But feel free to explain how someone who was born here to parents who were born here, whose grandparents came here without papers, is 'illegal'.

.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 152

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 1:10:10 PM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

Mercnbeth ...

Reading my last post, I realized I quoted you ... but the vast majority of my post was general commentary, and not at all meant to aimed your way.

I apologize if it looked like an attack post. It wasn't meant to at all.

cc

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 153

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 1:16:35 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

What is wrong with the internet today? It looks like nobody is understanding anyone for a change...

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 7/18/2006 1:19:50 PM >

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 154

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 1:38:53 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

But feel free to explain how someone who was born here to parents who were born here, whose grandparents came here without papers, is 'illegal'.

If I raised that issue I would. But because it is a factual miss-statement I doubt it would happen.

However, this...

quote:

In this thread, they have been incorrectly labelled 'Mexicans', even though many of them come from other countries, and they have been incorrectly labelled as 'illegals', which is only one part of those people working in that layer of society.

...is a direct quote from your post. I don't believe you can make the same claim of factual misrepresentation.

quote:

caitlyn: Reading my last post, I realized I quoted you ... but the vast majority of my post was general commentary, and not at all meant to aimed your way.

I apologize if it looked like an attack post. It wasn't meant to at all.

caitlyn,
Didn't see it as an attack whatsoever, and if I did it was still in the context of debate and not personal. I actually made a reply but it got lost in cyber space due to a "time-out" issue.

I saw your comments as us reaching common ground. Back when I was a little younger than you are currently the legal drinking age was reduced to 18. It wasn't so long before that you could die for you country but couldn't vote for person who sent you off to war. The legal voting age was also 18. That was the case for all those dying in all wars up to and including Vietnam.

Now of course you have to volunteer to serve in the military and that's the given rationalized excuse for the hypocrisy of dying for, but not drinking in your country at the ages between 18-21.

Pay attention to the hypocrisy around you. Whether the 'sincere' friend who talks behind your back or the politicians who selectively enforce laws. Ideally you can use their own arguments against them. For instance, the illegal amnesty movement gains support by saying if someone came into the country illegally and managed to live here for 5 years without getting caught or doing anything else illegal they should get amnesty. No harm no foul - here's your citizen papers. Forget for a moment that there are literally tens of thousands of people with immigration visas on a 10 year waiting list who aren't being given the same consideration.

However, change the scenario to a person who somehow managed to get away with not paying any income tax for 5 years. Why shouldn't he be given the same consideration for amnesty? After all, everything he bought he paid sales tax, he contributed to the local economy and he didn't break any other laws.

When they respond with the usual "that's different!"; ask them to specifically point out why?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 7/18/2006 1:41:15 PM >

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 155

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 1:46:05 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

There is no need for me to make up a claim of misprepresentation...I stand by my statement that not all the people working in the bottom rung jobs of the OP, are illegal, and that it is less than useful to label them as illegal, particularly since you have ruled out the possibility that the illegal reference is one that can be inherited..

The fact that you are also using the term in a different context (to discuss the overall problem of illegal immigration), is somewhat beside the point.

Again, it is the employers, and the jobs they want filled, that I'm addressing, and not all of the people in those jobs should be referred to as illegals, if what we mean is 'people stuck in those jobs'.

(Edited to explicate, and add)

Here is the exact part of the OP to which I am referring:

quote:

...they work in fields in which cancer causing chemicals are widly used in large quanities, their children often move with them in a migratory manner and do not get the benefit of going to school here because they move too much, women are in the fields with these chemicals while they are pregnant... so you can eat cheap fruit and veggies while the farmer that employed them profits grossly for it.

The OP and others consistently refer to those workers as 'the Mexicans', and 'illegals', when in fact there are many such workers who do not fit either category.

In order to focus the discussion on those jobs, those employers, and all of those workers, it seems useful to weed out the usual 'Blame Bush!', 'Blame Clinton!', or 'They're coming here illegally!'' sidebars.

I fail to see why my sticking to the OP, and correcting those misconceptions, is in any way interefering with your discussing whatever aspect you wish.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 7/18/2006 2:02:33 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 156

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 1:53:40 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

I stand by my statement that not all the people working in the bottom rung jobs of the OP, are illegal, and that it is less than useful to label them as illegal.

Actually that is a completely different statement.

Illegal is accurate and "useful" for the purpose of distinguishing them from the other "bottom rung" people who would be able to move up a rung or two economically if the illegals weren't in the workforce.

quote:

not all of the people in those jobs should be referred to as illegals..

Agreed - Only those in the country illegally should be referred to by those terms.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 157

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 1:55:22 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

.... Those are your words above..."guestworker" and "Chinese laborers" in the same sentence.....

.....To say prior to the Chinese there was slavery implies that the Chinese were not enslaved

In no way shape or form does making a list of historical events, and mentioning different groups in that list 'imply' any such things.

It shows that those Chinese were not the same people as the African slaves brought over in the 1600s by the European slave trade.

But you knew that, you are (as I said), just being dishonest to derail the discussion into one of your keyboard commando tantrums, and focus all attention on you..

This isn't about your ego driven games, this is about real people and problems in the real world, and possible solutions.

Thanks for so clearly demonstrating that you think they are a joke.

You chose not to discuss my first point which was that you connected the Chinese with guestworkers, not me. But this thread isn't about the Chinese, or about whatever conclusions you have decided about my words. In most of my posts, I attempted to raise questions for discussion and thought. I have spent many years working with both legal and illegal immigrants and I know all too well, first hand, of their unfortunate strifes. As a resident of a state going bankrupt, I also know all too well of the burden being placed on us, and that Federal assistance with such a burden has been lacking.

I have no clue how you have drawn your conclusions about me having a "tantrum" or "lying" or attempting to "derail" or wanting to "focus all attention" on me. I thought I was partaking in a discussion and never claimed to have the answers. In fact, I asked specifically, "What are the answers?" Your hostility leaves me a little perplexed, but your conclusions about me, stated as facts, are off base.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 158

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 2:08:18 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Alum, in the opening post stating "Anti-Immigrant " feelings in the country I don't see any of that.
It's "Anti_illegal Aliens" feelings that I see. People are finally waking up to the fact that the U.S. is being invaded by third world countries. And they don't like it one bit! I've talked to my Congressman's staffers about it (Rep. Henry Brown R-S.C.) and they say they get calls, letters, e-mails, faxes every single day about it.
As for your "grandfather" post above go read the 14th Amendment. It was incorporated to give "full" Citizenship to slaves after the Civil War, not to grant U.S. Citizenship to the children of illegal aliens.
It obviously needs to be clarified!
If millions of lawyers were sneaking into this country from India and opening Law Offices and driving down Attourney's fees I don't think too much time would elapse before the people who represent us in Washington put a screaching halt to it!

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 159

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans - 7/18/2006 2:09:56 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

I stand by my statement that not all the people working in the bottom rung jobs of the OP, are illegal, and that it is less than useful to label them as illegal.

Actually that is a completely different statement.

Illegal is accurate and "useful" for the purpose of distinguishing them from the other "bottom rung" people who would be able to move up a rung or two economically if the illegals weren't in the workforce.

'Illegal' can just as easily refer to someone here illegally, who is running drugs or robbing banks instead of being part of the workforce under discussion...and I have my doubts that employers would suddenly become more generous with pay if only all their workers had papers.

The issue of illegal immigration is well worth serious consideration, pardon me if I wait to take it up separately from the issue of employers and exploitation of workers.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 160

Page: << < prev 6 7 [8] 9 10 next > >>

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans

Page: << < prev 6 7 [8] 9 10 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.109