Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old article?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old article? Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old article? - 5/22/2014 9:02:39 AM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		One of the main problems with solar energy electric generation is that the high temperature (1700 degrees) annealing of the solar cells makes it require 15 years to recoup the amount of power needed in manufacture. But the mean useful lifetime of an individual solar panel is 5 years.

Back in 2008, a young graduate student in Australia came up with a method for making a photovoltaic array (solar cell to most of the world) with an annealing temperature of 350 degrees. Her lab level demonstration showed modifying an ink jet printer to spray the chemicals on a plastic substrate and baking in a pizza oven.

Has anyone seen a commercial use of this in the interim? All I ever see for sale are the older type solar cells and nothing on the low cost ones at all.

Trivia: What did Einstein get a Nobel Prize for? (Hint, it wasn't relativity)

Answer: Provable mathematical explanation of the photovoltaic effect that makes solar cells work, and old style movie sound too.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old ar... - 5/22/2014 9:17:32 AM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		Whoops, forgot the link:

http://gizmodo.com/5040871/australian-student-invents-cheap-solar-using-nail-polish-and-a-pizza-oven

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old ar... - 5/22/2014 9:20:03 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: MercTech

One of the main problems with solar energy electric generation is that the high temperature (1700 degrees) annealing of the solar cells makes it require 15 years to recoup the amount of power needed in manufacture. But the mean useful lifetime of an individual solar panel is 5 years.


This is not true.
First the cost to manufacture solar panels today is about .56cents a watt.
I have solar panels that were manufactured in 1990. My callender says it is 2014. That is somewhat longer than five years. I know of no solar manufacturer that does not guarentee their product against defects in manjufactre and materials for 20 years or more. Why would anyone invest 50k and up on a system that was only going to last for 5 years?




(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old ar... - 5/22/2014 9:26:44 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: MercTech

One of the main problems with solar energy electric generation is that the high temperature (1700 degrees) annealing of the solar cells makes it require 15 years to recoup the amount of power needed in manufacture. But the mean useful lifetime of an individual solar panel is 5 years.


This is not true.
First the cost to manufacture solar panels today is about .56cents a watt.
I have solar panels that were manufactured in 1990. My callender says it is 2014. That is somewhat longer than five years. I know of no solar manufacturer that does not guarentee their product against defects in manjufactre and materials for 20 years or more. Why would anyone invest 50k and up on a system that was only going to last for 5 years?




Great. Go hook up a meter and tell me how much power they are generating compared to their face plate. Useful life on solar cells is determined by percentage of name plate.

And every single major PV cell made today has the same issue with degradation of performance over time. So the warranty about free from defects in workmanship et. al is exactly ... meaningless.

And while I've seen useful lifes from 5 to 11 years or so, the principle merc stated is more or less right.

But generally, it isn't the energy cost of production that is the determiner of feasibility. Its that the aerial density in most of the US for example doesn't allow one to recoup the cost of the investment over the lifespan of the panels.

In other words - you're better off putting your money in a cd.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old ar... - 5/22/2014 9:31:19 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		It's called CIGS solar.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/environment/inkjet-printing-solar-panels-cheap-and-almost-green/10348/

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old ar... - 5/22/2014 11:17:23 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
ORIGINAL: MercTech
One of the main problems with solar energy electric generation is that the high temperature (1700 degrees) annealing of the solar cells makes it require 15 years to recoup the amount of power needed in manufacture. But the mean useful lifetime of an individual solar panel is 5 years.

This is not true.
First the cost to manufacture solar panels today is about .56cents a watt.
I have solar panels that were manufactured in 1990. My callender says it is 2014. That is somewhat longer than five years. I know of no solar manufacturer that does not guarentee their product against defects in manjufactre and materials for 20 years or more. Why would anyone invest 50k and up on a system that was only going to last for 5 years?


People that buy brand new cars every 4-5 years?

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old ar... - 5/22/2014 11:36:49 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		Food for thought that could help in this discussion. One guy made a Solar Farm in Michigan. And it was rather inexpensive than most people thought at the time. Mr. Field believes the solar cells on the farm will maintain efficiencies for 25 years. After which time, those cells will only be at 80% efficiency. Since starting the solar farm back in 2009, Mr. Field has seen a reduction in solar cell costs.

I understand certain individuals on this forum/thread dislike renewable energy, given the President pushed for such a few years back; its really in the nation's interest to forge ahead with good research and development in this industry. To stay ahead of other nations, and reduce our reliance on other nations to provide us with energy. Its rather sad that the party that once stood for small business development, good science, and plenty of R&D is now against all those concepts, because Democrats favor them.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old ar... - 5/22/2014 12:07:57 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Great. Go hook up a meter and tell me how much power they are generating compared to their face plate. Useful life on solar cells is determined by percentage of name plate.

They have kept my battery pack fully charged for more than 25 years.

And every single major PV cell made today has the same issue with degradation of performance over time. So the waranty about free from defects in workmanship et. al is exactly ... meaningless.


That would be your ignorant,unsubstantiated,puerile opinion. The pannels still produce their rated power. My pannels say xx amps at yy temp, +/- z%

And while I've seen useful lifes from 5 to 11 years or so, the principle merc stated is more or less right.

It is not even in the same zip code with right.

But generally, it isn't the energy cost of production that is the determiner of feasibility. Its that the aerial density in most of the US for example doesn't allow one to recoup the cost of the investment over the lifespan of the panels.


With solar pannels available currently for about a dollar a watt and edison electricity selling at about .10 cents for a thousand watts, a pannel will put out it's rated power for no less than 5 hours a day. So the math goes like this:10,000 watts cost $1 from edison, a 1 watt pannel will produce 10,000 watts in 10,000 hours at five hours a day that would be 2000 days which would be about four and a half years. Actually less because the panels make power for more than 5 hours a day.

In other words - you're better off putting your money in a cd.


No. I put my money in solar panels, inverter and batteries.They have been paid off for more than 20 years. For that amount of time I have not had an electric bill. How much do your cd's pay?

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old ar... - 5/22/2014 12:14:23 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
ORIGINAL: MercTech
One of the main problems with solar energy electric generation is that the high temperature (1700 degrees) annealing of the solar cells makes it require 15 years to recoup the amount of power needed in manufacture. But the mean useful lifetime of an individual solar panel is 5 years.

This is not true.
First the cost to manufacture solar panels today is about .56cents a watt.
I have solar panels that were manufactured in 1990. My callender says it is 2014. That is somewhat longer than five years. I know of no solar manufacturer that does not guarentee their product against defects in manjufactre and materials for 20 years or more. Why would anyone invest 50k and up on a system that was only going to last for 5 years?


People that buy brand new cars every 4-5 years?


Who do you know or think you know who,not for transportation or prestiege but simply to save a few thousand dollars a year on electricity, spends 50-100k for a car and chucks it in the scrap and gets another every 5 years?.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old ar... - 5/22/2014 12:21:20 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		Its rather sad that the party that once stood for small business development, good science, and plenty of R&D is now against all those concepts, because Democrats favor them.

If we look closely at the history of our country I think we would be hard pressed to find a time when this was not so. We find partisan politics from wahington forward. What ever the other guy favors this one is against. They change sides so often you would think it is a fucking mating dance.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old ar... - 5/22/2014 11:11:06 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
ORIGINAL: MercTech
One of the main problems with solar energy electric generation is that the high temperature (1700 degrees) annealing of the solar cells makes it require 15 years to recoup the amount of power needed in manufacture. But the mean useful lifetime of an individual solar panel is 5 years.

This is not true.
First the cost to manufacture solar panels today is about .56cents a watt.
I have solar panels that were manufactured in 1990. My callender says it is 2014. That is somewhat longer than five years. I know of no solar manufacturer that does not guarentee their product against defects in manjufactre and materials for 20 years or more. Why would anyone invest 50k and up on a system that was only going to last for 5 years?

People that buy brand new cars every 4-5 years?

Who do you know or think you know who,not for transportation or prestiege but simply to save a few thousand dollars a year on electricity, spends 50-100k for a car and chucks it in the scrap and gets another every 5 years?.



All the rent-a-car companies operating in America (i.e. Hertz, Enterprise, etc.). They buy such cars for their primary business model: to make a profit. So they buy $50K cars brand new and set them up as rent units.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old ar... - 5/23/2014 7:15:49 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
All the rent-a-car companies operating in America (i.e. Hertz, Enterprise, etc.). They buy such cars for their primary business model: to make a profit. So they buy $50K cars brand new and set them up as rent units.

They buy them.
They rent them.
Then they sell them.
With a solar panel that last for five years the residu has no scrap value.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old ar... - 5/23/2014 7:32:27 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Three square miles of sunlight would power every home in America.

In time, someone will figure out how to effectively tap this well.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old ar... - 5/23/2014 10:17:43 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		That is clearly shrinking. The earliest panels in my aray develop about 15 watts per sq ft. I bought some used ones recently that put out 25 watts per sq ft and the new stuff in the pipe line is about 40 watts per sq ft..

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old ar... - 5/23/2014 11:56:07 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Three square miles of sunlight would power every home in America.

In time, someone will figure out how to effectively tap this well.



Yeah? At night too?

I'd love to see you do the math on this. But since I'm pretty sure you're incapable.. lets run the numbers and see if you're correct.

At noon, the average radiance is going to be 1Kw/m2, ground level in the US. Or 1e6 kW/km2. Mind you - the system generate essentially no power in the early morn and dusk. But we'll use the best case for this.

And the average efficiency of solar panels is.. 15%. Again. We'll say there all new, and so perfectly efficient. According to the US DOE the average house uses 10.8Kw per year. We'll round that down to 10k in your favor.

125 million houses. So thats 125e6*10e3 = 1.25e12Kw per year.

Gee, I'm afraid, as usual.. your math is a little off.

1.25e12Kw/1e6Kw/km2 1.25e6 km2.


Since the contiguous US is roughly 8mil km2 = this means paving over 1/8 of the country with solar cells, just to power our homes. Forgetting our schools, cars, businesses, hospitals.

At noon. Without transmission wires.

Thats why liberals inability to do numbers is so patently dangerous. You believe crap that is so patently absurd anyone with a background in science or engineering *knows* its ridiculous. But lacking those you blithely believe.








< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 5/23/2014 12:20:42 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old ar... - 5/23/2014 1:29:04 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		He said nothing about solar panels at present efficiency. He said 3 square miles of sunlight.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old ar... - 5/24/2014 2:02:47 AM   
SadistDave


Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Three square miles of sunlight would power every home in America.

In time, someone will figure out how to effectively tap this well.


This is currently looking for crowdfunding.

I'm guessing it will take more than 3 square miles to power the country, but it's still very cool.

-SD-

_____________________________

To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old ar... - 5/24/2014 9:00:13 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Three square miles of sunlight would power every home in America.

In time, someone will figure out how to effectively tap this well.

This is currently looking for crowdfunding.

I'm guessing it will take more than 3 square miles to power the country, but it's still very cool.


While the panels (according to this video) would be heated a few degrees above freezing; where does the power come from during Nor'Easters? Since those are common in the winter within New England. How much energy must be place back within the roadways and such? That is an abundant amount of energy mere factions of an inch away from people's bare feet. Is there any health concerns?

While the generation of energy is good, does there exist a sizable storage system to contain it? A sort of 'First In, First Out' mechanism (FIFO)?

The video expresses two such tests have been performed. Where are these tests? What has been observed in different road, weather and even planetary events? How well do these things handle an earthquake for example?

I'm all for better technology invented and used; but like to understand all aspects of it.

(in reply to SadistDave)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old ar... - 5/24/2014 9:21:45 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Three square miles of sunlight would power every home in America.

In time, someone will figure out how to effectively tap this well.

This is currently looking for crowdfunding.

I'm guessing it will take more than 3 square miles to power the country, but it's still very cool.


While the panels (according to this video) would be heated a few degrees above freezing; where does the power come from during Nor'Easters? Since those are common in the winter within New England. How much energy must be place back within the roadways and such? That is an abundant amount of energy mere factions of an inch away from people's bare feet. Is there any health concerns?

While the generation of energy is good, does there exist a sizable storage system to contain it? A sort of 'First In, First Out' mechanism (FIFO)?

The video expresses two such tests have been performed. Where are these tests? What has been observed in different road, weather and even planetary events? How well do these things handle an earthquake for example?

I'm all for better technology invented and used; but like to understand all aspects of it.

I'm not sure about that specific item but I know that there have been tests of solar roadbeds. The tech works in theory.

Replacing even a significant percentage of private driveways with such would take decades but consider the possibility:

If the entire system is modular and you build the roadbed with batteries embedded there is no reason that power could not be distributed as needed and keeping a road above freezing even in a snowstorm might be possible. I have seen heated sidewalks stay snow free in pretty significant snowstorms in downtown Milwaukee.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old ar... - 5/24/2014 9:38:43 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		That would be an awesome application.

One problem would be that every dog, cat, and here in the country, wild creatures of all sorts,would be hanging out on the heated roadway.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> Cheap Solar? Anyone heard anthing from this old article? Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109