quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonX
we now have to increase that amount for night time power. And, since we are collection all of the solar light for energy, everything under the panels becomes a desert in the shade.

Also not so.
Simply put shade tolerant crops under the pannels.

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ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonX
So, for your utopian dream you've just made the US a desert.

We already have a desert in which to put the panels.

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: MercTech
Not going to go into whether a warrantee used to sell a product has any basis in the reality of the operation of the product.

That seems like an important thing to get into when claiming 5 years. That it's typical for companies to put their money where their mouth is to guarantee 20 to 25 years means that I WILL get "the operation of the product". Whether they'll be stuck refurbishing/replacing the product during that time is a separate issue but I find it hard to believe that the solar panel industry has signed up to give their product away 3 to 4 times for every time they sell it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
I was wondering if anyone had seen solar panels on the market that didn't take more energy to produce than they would ever generate.
I'm looking not for PC green illusions but actual efficient engineering solutions. i.e. the illusion that electric cars are good for the environment as a whole when they only relocate more pollution to another location that does an internal combustion engine.

I haven't a clue as to the "green"ness of my panels, I got them because getting public service to put my camp on the grid was going to be cost prohibitive just to run some light bulbs.

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ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonX
we now have to increase that amount for night time power. And, since we are collection all of the solar light for energy, everything under the panels becomes a desert in the shade.

Also not so.
Simply put shade tolerant crops under the pannels.

There does exist an abundant amount of crops that can be produced in shady environments. And some crops that grow well with half as much sunlight as well. Would take a decent biologist or botanist less then five minutes to give a long list.

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ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonX
So, for your utopian dream you've just made the US a desert.

We already have a desert in which to put the panels.

The longer conservatives in Texas want to keep denying the existence of Climate Change, the sooner that part of the country will be a massive desert.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA
You're so funny jester. Now take your meds.

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ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA
You're so funny jester. Now take your meds.

Global you say to me? I believe he spelled out the global issues of coal itself in one of those links. And those links spelled out the estimated deposits of coal in each of many countries. So the question becomes: Why draw power from something that has a limited fuel limit and damages the planet; when another source is freely available and if it stops, the planet Earth experiences an E.L.E. event anyways....

Thanks for this source, 'Tail!

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

We have coal, and natural gas coming out of our ass in this country. We throw away much of the natural gas. We could let the coal sit for awhile, farm the natural gas, give the miners a lung break.

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ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Well one thing we know for sure, is that we do not want to do ANY research and development into solar cell technology. (BTW, annealing is now done thermally at 120 to 150 C and chemical annealing has made great strides)

I mean when all of the solar energy on the great lakes in one day would be more than enough to power everything in the entire US for that day...where's the profit in that ?

See, that's the much superior mathematics of the capitalists and we all know, that's the only math...that matters.

(BTW, almost all R & D into the practical use of solar cell derived energy is done by govt. (and military) and academic grants as the capitalist wants no part of solar energy...can't charge $$ for the sun...yet)

That's neither conservative or liberal...it's profiteering which is just today's republicans.

Sure, go google what Spain is going through, how many jobs have been lost because of the renewable energy direction they went. How it's bankrupting the country and a lot of Europe. To a leftist that doesn't matter as long as we care a lot about our idea.


Most of what Obama spent with a trillion and a half dollars in stimulus money went to solar projects that are now bankrupt. What do you mean we've spent nothing on research. We've spent the money, we just haven't had a return on investment. Just as in Europe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Well one thing we know for sure, is that we do not want to do ANY research and development into solar cell technology. (BTW, annealing is now done thermally at 120 to 150 C and chemical annealing has made great strides)

I mean when all of the solar energy on the great lakes in one day would be more than enough to power everything in the entire US for that day...where's the profit in that ?

See, that's the much superior mathematics of the capitalists and we all know, that's the only math...that matters.

(BTW, almost all R & D into the practical use of solar cell derived energy is done by govt. (and military) and academic grants as the capitalist wants no part of solar energy...can't charge $$ for the sun...yet)

That's neither conservative or liberal...it's profiteering which is just today's republicans.

Sure, go google what Spain is going through, how many jobs have been lost because of the renewable energy direction they went. How it's bankrupting the country and a lot of Europe. To a leftist that doesn't matter as long as we care a lot about our idea.


Most of what Obama spent with a trillion and a half dollars in stimulus money went to solar projects that are now bankrupt. What do you mean we've spent nothing on research. We've spent the money, we just haven't had a return on investment. Just as in Europe.

Like I wrote, the capitalist wants no part of solar energy. There had been great breakthroughs particularly in Spain but when it comes to crushing competition, the buck stops with corruption by throwing money at govt. with all of that green free speech.

Here Can't have a carbon tax but it's just OK to have a 'sun' tax. I Googled Spain alright. Typical capitalist corruption.

Seems perfectly OK to subsidize coal and other polluting fossil fuels but don't let solar energy advance...no profit for the investor class in that. Typically, the little guys gets fucked.

US and other solar efforts have been under priced by the Chinese govt. subsidies and labor gulag...another capitalist profit center for fossil fuels et al.

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: MercTech

One of the main problems with solar energy electric generation is that the high temperature (1700 degrees) annealing of the solar cells makes it require 15 years to recoup the amount of power needed in manufacture. But the mean useful lifetime of an individual solar panel is 5 years.


This is not true.
First the cost to manufacture solar panels today is about .56cents a watt.
I have solar panels that were manufactured in 1990. My callender says it is 2014. That is somewhat longer than five years. I know of no solar manufacturer that does not guarentee their product against defects in manjufactre and materials for 20 years or more. Why would anyone invest 50k and up on a system that was only going to last for 5 years?

Great. Go hook up a meter and tell me how much power they are generating compared to their face plate. Useful life on solar cells is determined by percentage of name plate.

And every single major PV cell made today has the same issue with degradation of performance over time. So the warranty about free from defects in workmanship et. al is exactly ... meaningless.

And while I've seen useful lifes from 5 to 11 years or so, the principle merc stated is more or less right.

But generally, it isn't the energy cost of production that is the determiner of feasibility. Its that the aerial density in most of the US for example doesn't allow one to recoup the cost of the investment over the lifespan of the panels.

In other words - you're better off putting your money in a cd.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Great. Go hook up a meter and tell me how much power they are generating compared to their face plate. Useful life on solar cells is determined by percentage of name plate.

They have kept my battery pack fully charged for more than 25 years.

And every single major PV cell made today has the same issue with degradation of performance over time. So the waranty about free from defects in workmanship et. al is exactly ... meaningless.


That would be your ignorant,unsubstantiated,puerile opinion. The pannels still produce their rated power. My pannels say xx amps at yy temp, +/- z%

And while I've seen useful lifes from 5 to 11 years or so, the principle merc stated is more or less right.

It is not even in the same zip code with right.

But generally, it isn't the energy cost of production that is the determiner of feasibility. Its that the aerial density in most of the US for example doesn't allow one to recoup the cost of the investment over the lifespan of the panels.


With solar pannels available currently for about a dollar a watt and edison electricity selling at about .10 cents for a thousand watts, a pannel will put out it's rated power for no less than 5 hours a day. So the math goes like this:10,000 watts cost $1 from edison, a 1 watt pannel will produce 10,000 watts in 10,000 hours at five hours a day that would be 2000 days which would be about four and a half years. Actually less because the panels make power for more than 5 hours a day.

In other words - you're better off putting your money in a cd.


No. I put my money in solar panels, inverter and batteries.They have been paid off for more than 20 years. For that amount of time I have not had an electric bill. How much do your cd's pay?

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: joether

While the generation of energy is good, does there exist a sizable storage system to contain it? A sort of 'First In, First Out' mechanism (FIFO)?


It is not all that difficult to pump water into an elevated tank or box cars full of lead up an incline.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

I'm off the grid and have sat with the engineers of major power companies. Renewable energy doesn't work well. With a simple google you'll see Europe is finding the cost is much more than they ever imagined.

Would you have any validation for this ignorant unsubstantiated opinion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

I'm off the grid and have sat with the engineers of major power companies. Renewable energy doesn't work well. With a simple google you'll see Europe is finding the cost is much more than they ever imagined.

Would you have any validation for this ignorant unsubstantiated opinion.

Calling names is a Saul Alinaky tactic of the left. You can google the truth about Europe having big problems with costs. Frankly, if you'd like I'll start calling for validation on your inane comments.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: joether

While the generation of energy is good, does there exist a sizable storage system to contain it? A sort of 'First In, First Out' mechanism (FIFO)?


It is not all that difficult to pump water into an elevated tank or box cars full of lead up an incline.

Since Thompson is so well known as the Master of prescience, I'm investing in box cars full of lead tomorrow.

Energy problem solved...everyone go home now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

I'm off the grid and have sat with the engineers of major power companies. Renewable energy doesn't work well. With a simple google you'll see Europe is finding the cost is much more than they ever imagined.

Would you have any validation for this ignorant unsubstantiated opinion.

Calling names is a Saul Alinaky tactic of the left. You can google the truth about Europe having big problems with costs. Frankly, if you'd like I'll start calling for validation on your inane comments.

Hunter, please see my previous post. Thompson is an undiscovered genius.

In a manner not unlike Jesus, someone should stay at his side and write down every utterance for all of us.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: joether

While the generation of energy is good, does there exist a sizable storage system to contain it? A sort of 'First In, First Out' mechanism (FIFO)?


It is not all that difficult to pump water into an elevated tank or box cars full of lead up an incline.

Since Thompson is so well known as the Master of prescience, I'm investing in box cars full of lead tomorrow.

Energy problem solved...everyone go home now.

I have a five gallon bucket of wheel weights and about 20 pounds of Linotype in use to cast bullets. Perhaps I should save them for the coming global energy liberation. I'll be a robber baron on my profits.