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RE: Must have used a knife - 8/14/2014 10:13:46 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

and OPSS you CONVEINIENTLY decided to leave out LIST of "any of the following places" as set forth is subsection (a) (1)-(6) which is quite SPECIFIC about which places it includes...

but OPPPSSS gas stations and 7-11's and grocery stores were NOT ON THE LIST

upon rereading YOUR POST and the ACTUAL DOCUMENT, you intentionally EDITED OUT subsection (a) (1)-(6) so as to make it VAGUE about what places were covered

a LIE by OMMISION is STILL A LIE!

SOP

Did that idiot bitaykin try and read a law and think he found something? I knew I should have explained the law for the dimwitted.
The law in question has two sections (a) and (b). (a) lists six specific places where you cannot carry at all no matter what. Section (b) says any place that has any form of access control whatsoever (which obviously includes doors) requires the express permission of someone with authority over the building to let anyone carry in the building. Section (c) says the building can post a sign saying no guns and you can't bring a gun inside.

You really shouldn't believe the dumbest poster on the site.

Which means that they can ask you to leave. No felony, nothing to affect your right to carry. And as I have said repeatedly the normal reaction is to take your business elsewhere. It was mine.
He can't be the dumbest poster as long as you are here.


Actually it is a C misdemeanor as my post makes clear. And that does affect your CCW. Since it is a weapons violation. And if you read the Alabama permit requirement the local Sheriff is required to revoke your permit if he "
has a reasonable suspicion that the person may use a weapon unlawfully or in such other manner that would endanger the person's self or others." Committing that C misdemeanor qualifies as unlawful use.

Walking into a gas station with a concealed weapon which you never touch does not give the sheriff any reason to think you are endangering anyone.

If you violated a posted no guns sign you violated state weapons law just like if you took that same gun into a court house (it is the same section of the law actually). Do you think you'll lose your CCW permit if you are caught with a gun in a court house?

Much as you would like to think otherwise it is a different situation.
Carrying in a Government building is a Federal offense.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 261
RE: Must have used a knife - 8/14/2014 10:35:41 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Much as you would like to think otherwise it is a different situation.
Carrying in a Government building is a Federal offense.

Carrying in a federal court house is a federal offense. Carrying in a state court house is simply a violation of the law I quoted up thread you can check.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 262
RE: Must have used a knife - 8/14/2014 10:54:10 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Much as you would like to think otherwise it is a different situation.
Carrying in a Government building is a Federal offense.

Carrying in a federal court house is a federal offense. Carrying in a state court house is simply a violation of the law I quoted up thread you can check.


Why are you wasting so much time trying to convince me I can't do something I wouldn't do anyway?
You mean the thing you altered to make it look like your were right?
When you do that you lose all right to refer to the document. It is still a different situation. For one thing it is posted better. For another it is a completely different class of building. The place in question put the notice off to the side, the court house has postings about three times as large on the door.
Never did I say that anyone should ignore the posts.
I have stated repeatedly that I DO NOT IGNORE THESE SIGNS. In fact one of the problems is that only the criminal element will ignore them.
How does any of this prove that gun free zones work. They keep me from carrying, but I am not the one they need to worry about. They keep ccw carriers out but that is not who they need to worry about. Again I quote the cop who told me about the holdup. "this time it (gun free zone) hurt them" That is far more relevant than all of your ranting.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/14/2014 11:03:00 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 263
RE: Must have used a knife - 8/15/2014 2:50:32 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Much as you would like to think otherwise it is a different situation.
Carrying in a Government building is a Federal offense.

Carrying in a federal court house is a federal offense. Carrying in a state court house is simply a violation of the law I quoted up thread you can check.


Why are you wasting so much time trying to convince me I can't do something I wouldn't do anyway?
You mean the thing you altered to make it look like your were right?
When you do that you lose all right to refer to the document. It is still a different situation. For one thing it is posted better. For another it is a completely different class of building. The place in question put the notice off to the side, the court house has postings about three times as large on the door.
Never did I say that anyone should ignore the posts.
I have stated repeatedly that I DO NOT IGNORE THESE SIGNS. In fact one of the problems is that only the criminal element will ignore them.
How does any of this prove that gun free zones work. They keep me from carrying, but I am not the one they need to worry about. They keep ccw carriers out but that is not who they need to worry about. Again I quote the cop who told me about the holdup. "this time it (gun free zone) hurt them" That is far more relevant than all of your ranting.

I'm simply proving that the claims you keep making about gun laws in a state I'm very familiar with are completely wrong. It is my opinion that if someone is going to routinely carry a firearm around my relatives, as you do, that person should have some idea what the law requires of them.

Hopefully the fact that you have no idea how to obey the CCW laws of the state you live in will penetrate and you'll either get better educated or stop carrying.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 264
RE: Must have used a knife - 8/15/2014 3:52:22 AM   
BitYakin


Posts: 882
Joined: 10/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Much as you would like to think otherwise it is a different situation.
Carrying in a Government building is a Federal offense.

Carrying in a federal court house is a federal offense. Carrying in a state court house is simply a violation of the law I quoted up thread you can check.


Why are you wasting so much time trying to convince me I can't do something I wouldn't do anyway?
You mean the thing you altered to make it look like your were right?
When you do that you lose all right to refer to the document. It is still a different situation. For one thing it is posted better. For another it is a completely different class of building. The place in question put the notice off to the side, the court house has postings about three times as large on the door.
Never did I say that anyone should ignore the posts.
I have stated repeatedly that I DO NOT IGNORE THESE SIGNS. In fact one of the problems is that only the criminal element will ignore them.
How does any of this prove that gun free zones work. They keep me from carrying, but I am not the one they need to worry about. They keep ccw carriers out but that is not who they need to worry about. Again I quote the cop who told me about the holdup. "this time it (gun free zone) hurt them" That is far more relevant than all of your ranting.

I'm simply proving that the claims you keep making about gun laws in a state I'm very familiar with are completely wrong. It is my opinion that if someone is going to routinely carry a firearm around my relatives, as you do, that person should have some idea what the law requires of them.

Hopefully the fact that you have no idea how to obey the CCW laws of the state you live in will penetrate and you'll either get better educated or stop carrying.


all you have proven is you like to twist documents till they mean NOTHING like what they actually SAY!

the document clearly shows what buildings its referring to, then you wish to PRETEND they meant ANY AND EVERY BUILDING ON EARTH cause it has a DOOR

sorry DUMBASS, a door is NOT A BARRIER unless its LOCKED in which case the charge would be BREAKING AND ENTERING

Bama WHY do you even debate things with this guy, I mean REALLLY according to his OWN WORDS its ILLEGAL to bring a gun into EVERY SINGLE BUILDNG WITH A DOOR

everyone here can see just HOW STUPID THAT IS

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 265
RE: Must have used a knife - 8/15/2014 10:02:08 AM   
GotSteel


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Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Too bad you came into the middle of the conversation.
The issue of the impotency of gun free zones is in no way linked to the effectiveness of armed resistance.

Once again I'm not taking a position for or against gun free zones I'm disputing the validity of an argument you made.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Your sisters school has taken precautions for the criminals who of course ignore the signs. All of the things you said in the last part of your post are correct and prove nothing.

The things I've said aren't supposed to prove anything about gun free zones one way or the other, they're supposed to point out that it's not valid for you to just assert the following because definitionally there's nothing about gun free zones that actually makes them gun free.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
It shows that armed resistance lowers casualties, now clearly that armed resistance would occur in areas that are not gun free.


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 266
RE: Must have used a knife - 8/15/2014 10:13:00 AM   
Moderator3


Posts: 3289
Status: offline 		FR

Please shorten the quotes. We don't need complete discussions repeatedly.

Thank you

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 267
RE: Must have used a knife - 8/15/2014 10:45:47 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		I'm simply proving that the claims you keep making about gun laws in a state I'm very familiar with are completely wrong. It is my opinion that if someone is going to routinely carry a firearm around my relatives, as you do, that person should have some idea what the law requires of them.

Hopefully the fact that you have no idea how to obey the CCW laws of the state you live in will penetrate and you'll either get better educated or stop carrying.
A you ignore the fact that I don't do any of the things you are so worried about
B I have seen your point though.
C It is illegal to take a gun into the courthouse
D so therefore if I drop off at the wrong gas station for a soda and forget to leave my gun in my car the sheriff has no choice but to assume I intended to harm someone.
E therefore gun free zones make sense.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 268
RE: Must have used a knife - 8/15/2014 10:48:08 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Too bad you came into the middle of the conversation.
The issue of the impotency of gun free zones is in no way linked to the effectiveness of armed resistance.

Once again I'm not taking a position for or against gun free zones I'm disputing the validity of an argument you made.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Your sisters school has taken precautions for the criminals who of course ignore the signs. All of the things you said in the last part of your post are correct and prove nothing.

The things I've said aren't supposed to prove anything about gun free zones one way or the other, they're supposed to point out that it's not valid for you to just assert the following because definitionally there's nothing about gun free zones that actually makes them gun free.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
It shows that armed resistance lowers casualties, now clearly that armed resistance would occur in areas that are not gun free.



Ok would you be happy if I stated that armed resistance would occur MORE OFTEN in areas that are not gun free, or do you just want to argue?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 269
RE: Must have used a knife - 8/15/2014 11:40:29 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Hopefully the fact that you have no idea how to obey the CCW laws of the state you live in will penetrate and you'll either get better educated or stop carrying.

Let me explain something to you.
A If someone puts up a sign not to carry a gun I don't go there.
It doesn't matter to me if it is a Federal law or just that the owner is an
asshole, I will go somewhere else.
B I know you can't carry a gun into a courthouse.
Again it doesn't matter to me if it is a Federal, State, County, or City law,
I am going to obey it.
C I know that it is legal to carry open in this state but I don't for two
reasons. First it is bad tactics, and second because if a gunaphobic like
you sees it and panics I can be charged with disturbing the peace.
D I know that it is legal to use whatever force I deem necessary to defend
my property. At the same time I know that I can't shoot them in the
back while they are running away.
E I know that I don't have to run from a threat but that doesn't mean I
can pick a fight, shoot the guy and claim self defense. This actually leads
to me walking away from situations where I used to stand and argue
because I have to be aware of how things can get out of control.
F Safety is so ingrained in me that yesterday I had to chastise an employee
in a gun store for the way he handled my handgun. And he agreed
with me. (I had removed the magazine and he took it before I could
empty the chamber.
G Of course you want me to stop carrying, you want everyone to.
H Not knowing the penalty for violating a law doesn't mean you don't know
not to do something.
F I know how to handle a firearm
I I got stopped once for what you would call a weapons violation.
The cop wouldn't let me in a courtroom because I had a weapon.
The weapon? My wallet had a chain to attach to my belt to make it
harder to be separated from the wallet. The penalty? I had to go back
to the parking lot and leave my wallet in the car.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/15/2014 11:44:37 AM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 270
RE: Must have used a knife - 8/15/2014 1:17:58 PM   
ThirdWheelWanted


Posts: 391
Joined: 4/23/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I am not comfortable leaving a firearm in the car I do business elsewhere.

I've never liked the idea of leaving a weapon unattended in a vehicle.

K.





I have a lock-box in my trunk for these instances. I prefer not to do so, but sometimes it's unavoidable.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 271
RE: Must have used a knife - 8/15/2014 1:23:34 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Ok would you be happy if I stated that armed resistance would occur MORE OFTEN in areas that are not gun free, or do you just want to argue?


I'd be happy if you could produce statistics, until then you've just got an assertion with makes sense to you. Problem is that means anyone who doesn't buy into your consense is going to find your argument entirely uncompelling.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 272
RE: Must have used a knife - 8/15/2014 1:24:45 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I am not comfortable leaving a firearm in the car I do business elsewhere.

I've never liked the idea of leaving a weapon unattended in a vehicle.

K.



I drive a pickup, not an option.
The only place I don't mind leaving it in the glove box is when I have a doctors appointment on base. Then it is about as safe a small town America...in the 50's

I have a lock-box in my trunk for these instances. I prefer not to do so, but sometimes it's unavoidable.



_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to ThirdWheelWanted)
Profile   Post #: 273
RE: Must have used a knife - 8/15/2014 2:47:22 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


I drive a pickup, not an option.
The only place I don't mind leaving it in the glove box is when I have a doctors appointment on base. Then it is about as safe a small town America...in the 50's

You do know they make gun safes for cars right?
My brother has a small one that holds a single pistol from when he was still working as an LEO. It was mounted in his pickup directly to the body so it would have been easier to steal the truck than to get the safe out quickly.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 274
RE: Must have used a knife - 8/15/2014 3:41:04 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


I drive a pickup, not an option.
The only place I don't mind leaving it in the glove box is when I have a doctors appointment on base. Then it is about as safe a small town America...in the 50's

You do know they make gun safes for cars right?
My brother has a small one that holds a single pistol from when he was still working as an LEO. It was mounted in his pickup directly to the body so it would have been easier to steal the truck than to get the safe out quickly.


As you have made clear in the past your brother is an idiot.
The store in question says you can't have firearms on the lot.
Gunsafe in the car still violates their policy.
Why should I buy a gun safe for my truck when I can just go somewhere else where I am not insulted.
You are in fact by their definition in violation before you have any chance to read the sign.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 275
RE: Must have used a knife - 8/15/2014 4:34:13 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


I drive a pickup, not an option.
The only place I don't mind leaving it in the glove box is when I have a doctors appointment on base. Then it is about as safe a small town America...in the 50's

You do know they make gun safes for cars right?
My brother has a small one that holds a single pistol from when he was still working as an LEO. It was mounted in his pickup directly to the body so it would have been easier to steal the truck than to get the safe out quickly.


As you have made clear in the past your brother is an idiot.
The store in question says you can't have firearms on the lot.
Gunsafe in the car still violates their policy.
Why should I buy a gun safe for my truck when I can just go somewhere else where I am not insulted.
You are in fact by their definition in violation before you have any chance to read the sign.

No, not in Alabama you are not. You were just claiming to know the law. If you have a permit in Alabama you can always store firearms you own, securely, in your private vehicle even if it is parked on someone else's property. As a matter of fact I'm pretty sure that is true throughout the US.

And the reason to have a gun safe is that the law in Alabama forbids taking a firearm into most hospitals so if anything ever happens to you or anyone you care about suddenly, you could find yourself in an awkward situation. Better to be prepared than to have no option at all.

As to the in violation before you see the sign nonsense, the law is specific it applies to buildings only and only buildings with at least doors and there must be a sign posted at all entrances. So no, simply walking up to the door is not a violation. Alabama's legislature has done many dumb things over the years but not that dumb.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 276
RE: Must have used a knife - 8/15/2014 7:32:35 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

would you be happy if I stated that armed resistance would occur MORE OFTEN in areas that are not gun free

I'd be happy if you could produce statistics, until then you've just got an assertion with makes sense to you.






(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 277
RE: Must have used a knife - 8/15/2014 11:14:47 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		No, not in Alabama you are not. You were just claiming to know the law. If you have a permit in Alabama you can always store firearms you own, securely, in your private vehicle even if it is parked on someone else's property. As a matter of fact I'm pretty sure that is true throughout the US.

Well Ken the sign in question clearly states in the store or on the lot. So your wrong about this place. What you are saying is that this store is trying to enforce an policy which, while it may not be illegal, is extralegal.

Edited for clarity

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/16/2014 12:14:48 AM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 278
RE: Must have used a knife - 8/15/2014 11:52:54 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		No, not in Alabama you are not. You were just claiming to know the law. If you have a permit in Alabama you can always store firearms you own, securely, in your private vehicle even if it is parked on someone else's property. As a matter of fact I'm pretty sure that is true throughout the US.

I didn't say the law, I said the store's policy.
There sign doesn't say it was provided by any law enforcement agency and make no mention of prosecution.
The signs provided by law enforcement say no open carry inside the building and does.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 279
RE: Must have used a knife - 8/16/2014 6:44:27 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Too bad you came into the middle of the conversation.
The issue of the impotency of gun free zones is in no way linked to the effectiveness of armed resistance.

Once again I'm not taking a position for or against gun free zones I'm disputing the validity of an argument you made.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Your sisters school has taken precautions for the criminals who of course ignore the signs. All of the things you said in the last part of your post are correct and prove nothing.

The things I've said aren't supposed to prove anything about gun free zones one way or the other, they're supposed to point out that it's not valid for you to just assert the following because definitionally there's nothing about gun free zones that actually makes them gun free.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
It shows that armed resistance lowers casualties, now clearly that armed resistance would occur in areas that are not gun free.



The fact that you may not want to accept something does not make it a logical fallacy, it just means you disagree.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 280
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