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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 4:51:07 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Don't suppose that you noticed that they have Brown on tape committing a strong armed robbery a few minutes before the incident. Kinda changes the context doesn't it? Still not (before you go off the deep end) saying the cop is right, we still don't have even half the evidence. He was probably just stealing tea and skittles.

For someone who claims to have been in Law Enforcemt, facts are hardly your strong point.

Dont you even read your own fucking links >

quote:

Hours after the reports' release, police said that Officer Darren Wilson, 28, had no idea 18-year-old Brown was a robbery suspect. He simply wanted Brown to move from the road to the sidewalk, Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson said at a news conference

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 4:55:08 PM

kdsub

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DomKen It was not a small number... but yes the looting, for now, has stopped.

As for tear gas... I would have handled the situation differently that's for sure.. Sure rocks and bottles were being thrown and Police being injured...and emergency vehicles could not get through the roads... but as long as there was no looting or direct attacking of Police or others I see no reason for tear gas... police dogs... or shields and clubs. It was an overreaction that did nothing but make things worse in the short run and harder for a long term solution.

I am glad to see last night some responsible police actions.

BUT

If you think the actions of either side in this mess is above reproach and not being judged negatively by the majority of Americans you are mistaken I believe. Africans Americans are not gaining sympathy or understanding by the majority of Americans and they will most likely come off in the end looking worse. People see the double standard and are tired of it... African Americans don't seem to care that their children are killing each other at a horrid pace and say nothing... until one is killed by a white man... then and only then do they protest.

The above is hard to say without sounding racists... but it is the truth... like it or not.

As for the police... they are looking and acting like storm troopers when they should be on the streets assuring people justice will be done and standing with rather than against them... people are disgusted with them too.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/15/2014 5:11:17 PM >

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 4:57:44 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Yep, and it's why when I'd even seen a photo of a black police officer in the same area with the same name, I still made sure to point out it wasn't confirmed.

Link ?............

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 5:13:53 PM

BitYakin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

DomKen It was not a small number... but yes the looting, for now, has stopped.

As for tear gas... I would have handled the situation differently that's for sure.. Sure rocks and bottles were being thrown and Police being injured...and emergency vehicles could not get through the roads... but as long as there was no looting or direct attacking of Police or others I see no reason for tear gas... police dogs... or shields and clubs. It was an overreaction that did nothing but make things worse in the short run and harder for a long term solution.

I am glad to see last night some responsible police actions.

Butch

I know you are in the st Louis area, so did you see the film on I think it was channel 4 where they showed a person making a molitov cocktail they said was later thrown and hit an officer?

it was improperly made so it didn't burst and cause a flaming explosion

note to molitov cocktail makers, the bottle needs to be FULL if you want it to BREAK and splash fire, 1/4 full needs to hit a HARD SURFACE SOLIDLY to rupture

as far as their reaction, how long do you feel they should have stood their while they threw rocks and bottles at them...

on reporter AT THE SCENE, said the police used extreme restraint, and only dispursed the crowd AFTER it became violent

another reporter at the scene said, no tear gas was used only smoke and when the crowd realized it was only smoke they began to return

and there is no LINK, these were reports I saw on various TV news shows that night

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 5:18:03 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I did not say they were not violent... I am asking if looting is necessary for a revolution... you seem to think it is by your posts. When the US revolted... did they loot their own businesses? When the French were chopping off heads were they looting their own businesses? Looting is not necessary or common for protests or revolutions... in my opinion of course.

And how have you been Politesub... I have not seen you around of late or maybe I have not been reading the same threads.

Butch

Ive been about Butch. I am doing well thanks. how are things with you ?

Looting is looting Butch, the suggestion it is off of your own kind seems a tad racist to me, since most looters are just opportunist criminals. I am not suggesting you are racist (before boi has another hissy fit) Looting is indeed common in all revolutions, as it is mostly carried out by the poor.

The French, were chopping off anyones head, thats why they called it "the Terror". Thomas Paine only survived because firstly, the executioner didnt notice the "X" on his door (it was marked on the inside and not the outside), and that Robespierre was himself executed.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 5:19:37 PM

kdsub

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BitYakin

Just me but i think the police actions leading up to the gas were as much the cause as the crowd. If the police would have just stopped the looting and managed the egress of emergency vehicles... tried to assure the crowd by addressing them as a group and individually that justice would be done... I don't think the situation would have reached the point where tear gas was needed to clear the streets. The police actions last night did just that and it was a far different outcome.

Butch

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 5:32:34 PM

kdsub

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I think the Ferguson police force needs a new chief... if he is not racists he is an idiot...What possible good did he think releasing the video of the boy stealing cigars would do. It may be true... but what was his reasoning... was he trying to discredit the kid? If so why... it had nothing to do with the indecent... all it did was make people madder and more distrustful.

Again why... did he release the name of the Police officer who did the shooting? Unless he is charged with a crime, which he has not yet been, his name should not have been given out. All that does is put his family at risk... and if he is innocent the officer himself. I don't care what the protesters were demanding.. he needs some balls.

He is screwing up left and right and over his head... The Governor did the right thing sending in the Highway Petrol.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/15/2014 5:33:39 PM >

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 5:38:03 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

DomKen It was not a small number... but yes the looting, for now, has stopped.

As for tear gas... I would have handled the situation differently that's for sure.. Sure rocks and bottles were being thrown and Police being injured...and emergency vehicles could not get through the roads... but as long as there was no looting or direct attacking of Police or others I see no reason for tear gas... police dogs... or shields and clubs. It was an overreaction that did nothing but make things worse in the short run and harder for a long term solution.

I've looked and can find no report of any police injuries. Where are you getting that. I can show you video of the prelude to the police attack on Wednesday and the crowd had their hands in the air so it seems unlikely they were throwing anything stronger than invective.

quote:

If you think the actions of either side in this mess is above reproach and not being judged negatively by the majority of Americans you are mistaken I believe. Africans Americans are not gaining sympathy or understanding by the majority of Americans and they will most likely come off in the end looking worse. People see the double standard and are tired of it... African Americans don't seem to care that their children are killing each other at a horrid pace and say nothing... until one is killed by a white man... then and only then do they protest.

The above is hard to say without sounding racists... but it is the truth... like it or not.

If you think black people only protest when their children are killed by whites you simply aren't paying attention. Maybe the local news doesn't cover the vigils and protests because their isn't a racism angle to cover but if you care to look you will find those protests going on all the time.

What's racist is the news media's coverage of the urban poor.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 5:40:40 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think the Ferguson police force needs a new chief... if he is not racists he is an idiot...What possible good did he think releasing the video of the boy stealing cigars would do. It may be true... but what was his reasoning... was he trying to discredit the kid? If so why... it had nothing to do with the indecent... all it did was make people madder and more distrustful.

Clearly he was trying to discredit Brown.

quote:

Again why... did he release the name of the Police officer who did the shooting? Unless he is charged with a crime, which he has not yet been, his name should not have been given out. All that does is put his family at risk... and if he is innocent the officer himself. I don't care what the protesters were demanding.. he needs some balls.

He had no choice. Missouri has an open records law. The police report on the shooting has to be made public and that will obviously include the name of the officer involved.

quote:

He is screwing up left and right and over his head... The Governor did the right thing sending in the Highway Petrol.

clearly.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 5:51:36 PM

kdsub

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quote:

If you think black people only protest when their children are killed by whites you simply aren't paying attention. Maybe the local news doesn't cover the vigils and protests because their isn't a racism angle to cover but if you care to look you will find those protests going on all the time.

What's racist is the news media's coverage of the urban poor.

I don't know your part of the country... but i will tell you with certainty there has been no protests in St. Louis over blacks killing blacks... no Al sharpton... no Jesse Jackson... no marches in the streets... absolutely nothing... for years.

And yes a police officer had his ankle broke by a brick and there were other minor injuries... I've already addressed what i thought of the police over reaction... so you will get no argument from me there.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/15/2014 5:52:11 PM >

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 5:57:58 PM

kdsub

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quote:

He had no choice. Missouri has an open records law. The police report on the shooting has to be made public and that will obviously include the name of the officer involved

I may be wrong... but unless I am mistaken there is a provision, a good one, that allows discretion if it puts someone at risk.

Now DomKen... what possible good did it do to release his name, when he is charged with no crime as of yet, when all it will do is put innocents at risk?

It is just as irresponsible to release his name under pressure as it is to release that video.

When and if he had been charged then I do agree his name must be released... but not until then... it is not fair to his family...let alone himself if he is innocent.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/15/2014 6:01:44 PM >

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 6:04:17 PM

cloudboy

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quote:

Now DomKen... what possible good did it do to release his name, when he is charged with no crime as of yet, when all it will do is put innocents at risk?

>Its (the Police) heavy handed, unprofessional tactics since the shooting raise grave doubts about both its competence and its credibility. It certainly cannot be trusted to investigate itself or, for that matter, to protect the community.

Police have enraged the public they serve by showing little respect for constitutional rights and little recognition of how Brown's killing has tapped into a deep vein of distrust of law enforcement among African Americans. By refusing to disclose basic information, including the name of the officer who shot Brown and autopsy results that could shed light on the case, they've needlessly raised suspicion.

Certainly, the officer and his family need protection, but a police department is fully capable of achieving that goal without resorting to stonewalling tactics that demolish public trust. After all, police and prosecutors routinely disclose names of arrested suspects, and in New York City, no stranger to this kind of controversy, it took only two days for police to make public the name of the officer who allegedly killed a black suspect in July by putting him in an illegal chokehold.<

-- USA Today

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/08/14/michael-brown-shooting-ferguson-missouri-police-editorials-debates/14086807/

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 8/15/2014 6:06:56 PM >

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 6:16:02 PM

kdsub

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Check THIS out as an example... then tell me where Al and Jesse or the NAACP were. This is 2011... but do a search for any years... and a search for a protest about it...see what you find.

Butch

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 6:16:52 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

If you think black people only protest when their children are killed by whites you simply aren't paying attention. Maybe the local news doesn't cover the vigils and protests because their isn't a racism angle to cover but if you care to look you will find those protests going on all the time.

What's racist is the news media's coverage of the urban poor.

I don't know your part of the country... but i will tell you with certainty there has been no protests in St. Louis over blacks killing blacks... no Al sharpton... no Jesse Jackson... no marches in the streets... absolutely nothing... for years.

And yes a police officer had his ankle broke by a brick and there were other minor injuries... I've already addressed what i thought of the police over reaction... so you will get no argument from me there.

Butch

You really should check before making that claim. I'm sure the local pastors and NAACP chapter are doing so. Do you read the American on a regular basis? I bet it is the only media source that would cover such.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 6:20:55 PM

kdsub

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Damn cloudboy... have you not been listening... he is not in charge of the investigation... the FBI and Justice department are. Did they release any information on names or accusations of the boys thievery?

But i will agree with you.. the Chief of Ferguson cannot be trusted to do a competent job... I don't know if he is honest or not... but i do know he is not making or made good decisions.

Butch

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 6:33:07 PM

kdsub

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Then maybe they should have kept this protest in the American as well if it gets the word of protest out about the killings. But of course you see the folly of this statement and the difference of a small news paper article and this protest in Ferguson. It is just as I said... it is only because it is a white killing a black... racists as hell... if we are so are they then.

I know you to be reasonable and we agree on a lot of things... and because of this I find it unsettling that you can't seem to see the hypocrisy in the actions of African Americans in this instance.... or at least understand how reasonable people could see it that way.

But again two wrongs don't make a right and just because they are hypocritical in their protests does not make what happened to this boy any less wrong. I am all for charges against this police officer if the evidence demands it.

Butch

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 7:17:32 PM

TheHeretic

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TGIF - finally.

I started this thread with a question, and I'm just now getting to the opportunity to really sit down and share my own thoughts about it.

I'm going with, yes, there are times when taking to the streets in violent rage is the only appropriate response. Riots are the voices of the unheard, and when they speak, the right things can happen as a result. It is the biggest hammer in the toolbox though, the price of using it can be very high, there will be collateral damage, and it's always possible the whole thing will backfire badly. In this case, the eyes of the nation have been opened to the militarization of our police forces, and I think that is a good thing.

I want to separate that sentiment from my opinions about this particular case. Hoi polloi aren't going to give a shit for much longer at all on this one.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 7:29:59 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

What's a 'strong armed robbery'? I've never heard that particular expression before. Ta for anyone's help.

It's a robbery by physical intimidation and display of brute force, while the actual violence is limited.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 7:41:18 PM

altoonamaster

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rocks and bottles thrown at police means hey stand still they wont hurt/use force only if injured or killed
and now its a video of this kid stealing cigars and the police are wrong/i still say if you loot you pay the price

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/15/2014 8:20:54 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think the Ferguson police force needs a new chief... if he is not racists he is an idiot...What possible good did he think releasing the video of the boy stealing cigars would do. It may be true... but what was his reasoning... was he trying to discredit the kid? If so why... it had nothing to do with the indecent... all it did was make people madder and more distrustful.

Again why... did he release the name of the Police officer who did the shooting? Unless he is charged with a crime, which he has not yet been, his name should not have been given out. All that does is put his family at risk... and if he is innocent the officer himself. I don't care what the protesters were demanding.. he needs some balls.

He is screwing up left and right and over his head... The Governor did the right thing sending in the Highway Petrol.

Butch

Looking at this from the public relations/spin point of view, I think the city and county cops made some awful decisions in addressing the riots. I'm sure this will strike some as odd, but I think one of the biggest mistakes was waiving uniform restrictions, and allowing officers to use non-standardized uniforms and footwear. Today's photo release, and the one I'm certain will be showing up before too long (Monday?), on the other hand are going to drive this story right onto page 7, and Ferguson will be getting back to business as usual. Maybe they'll install those dash cameras they bought and left laying around the station, still in their boxes.

For the last week, the protesters have been staking their claim on Brown as an innocent, "gentle giant." What good did releasing the Quik-E-Mart images do? It wiped out the credibility of anyone who said that. Brown was a thug. Oops. I think they will let that simmer for the weekend, then drop the other photos for the knockout. What other photos? Early reports, largely unmentioned since (at least that I have seen) are that the officer sustained a facial injury in the incident. So after hoi polloi have a few days to marinate in Brown as a hulking thug, we'll get another couple photos, showing the earnest young cop in his uniform, and that same earnest young cop with his face bruised and bloodied. Then comes the new narrative they are already laying the foundation for.

The "official" version writes itself. Officer Wilson, after rendering assistance in a medical emergency call, comes upon two young men blocking traffic by walking in the middle of the street, unaware that they are felons who have just robbed a store. He stops, and tells them they need to be on the sidewalk, only to be physically attacked in his car, without warning. The assailant, a hulking brute, goes for his gun, and a shot is fired. Another (or more) is fired after exiting the car. The officer has been struck in the face during the attack, his vision is impared, so when Brown turns to surrender, the officer is only aware of the enormous thug starting to come back at him. He stops the perceived renewed attack by shooting his attacker. Outcome? Cleared by the review board, no charges, and Big Mikey's homies can smoke a Swisher in memoriam. Case closed.

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