RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (Full Version)

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Kirata -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/27/2014 6:16:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

To be fair, Bama, you have an avatar of a particularly thick-looking dog. Yet most people try hard not to make any judgements against you for it.

Speaking of avatars, if you'd buy pants that fit you wouldn't have to hold them up. [:)]

K.





PeonForHer -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/27/2014 7:12:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Speaking of avatars, if you'd buy pants that fit you wouldn't have to hold them up. [:)]



You mean trousers, K. Trousers. [;)]




PeonForHer -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/27/2014 7:16:26 PM)

quote:

I have an avatar of one of the prettiest and smartest dogs on the planet


Rubbish. He has a black snout, looks aggressive and is plainly about to charge at me. If I were confronted by him while on holiday in the US of Sunny A, I'd be left with no choice but to pump him full of lead on sight.




BamaD -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/27/2014 7:26:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

I have an avatar of one of the prettiest and smartest dogs on the planet


Rubbish. He has a black snout, looks aggressive and is plainly about to charge at me. If I were confronted by him while on holiday in the US of Sunny A, I'd be left with no choice but to pump him full of lead on sight.

BS, and besides you couldn't legally carry here. So you have the same unreasoning fear of dogs that you do of firearms. Is there anything that doesn't terrify you?




PeonForHer -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/27/2014 8:02:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
BS, and besides you couldn't legally carry here. So you have the same unreasoning fear of dogs that you do of firearms. Is there anything that doesn't terrify you?


Yes, I am utterly without fear that you'll ever post anything that has any sense in it.




BamaD -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/27/2014 8:05:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
BS, and besides you couldn't legally carry here. So you have the same unreasoning fear of dogs that you do of firearms. Is there anything that doesn't terrify you?


Yes, I am utterly without fear that you'll ever post anything that has any sense in it.

And the converse is also true.




BamaD -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/27/2014 8:07:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
BS, and besides you couldn't legally carry here. So you have the same unreasoning fear of dogs that you do of firearms. Is there anything that doesn't terrify you?


Yes, I am utterly without fear that you'll ever post anything that has any sense in it.

The converse is also true.




deathtothepixies -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 2:24:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


And mine doesn't celebrate death. Far less offensive avatars than his have been removed by the mods

If that man had been set on fire it would be offensive

If that man had been mentally unstable it would have been offensive

If you had any idea what that picture was about you would realise how completely ignorant and offensive your comment is.

It's almost funny how a man who constantly parrots the 2nd and how it "deters tyrannical government" can have no idea, and apparently no interest in that picture.

Kind of shows how one eyed you are.





freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 6:05:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

Are you 100% certain that the cops all the steps they could to avoid killing a man?

I don't think they took any steps



They tried to get him to stop, they told him to drop the knife, they told him to get down on the ground. They were responding to a report of a robbery when another 911 call came in reporting that the guy had a knife. This is why they had guns drawn when they got out of their car. In the 12-15 seconds that they had because this guy was advancing on them, I don't know what else they could have done. If you have any ideas for something more that they could have done, I am all ears. Had they known that the guy was trying to get shot, they would have responded differently I am sure.

Before you jump me about his wanting to get shot, go find my post where I broke down the audio of the events leading up to when the police arrived. Powell said something that I was unable to understand to the guy recording the video and the guy holding the camera said, "You die." to him. Why on earth would he say that to Powell unless what he said indicated that he wanted to die?

I am not being argumentative here so please do not misunderstand me, I just do not know what else could have been done.

My bad.
"In the 12-15 seconds that they had because this guy was advancing on them..."

This is the bit I was referring to... before they arrived, they couldn't try to second-guess what was happening; hence the 12-15 seconds in total because anything before their arrival was unknown and they had to assess the situation once they got there. Which, for the officers in question, those 12-15 seconds is all they had.

"...I don't know what else they could have done. If you have any ideas for something more that they could have done, I am all ears."
Well, despite Bama's notion that driving away (or at least moving the vehicle a little to put some further distance between themselves and Powell) is retreating and in his eyes, reprehensible, that was one option they could have used. That would give them more time to think and further assess the situation and come up with other strategies that did not involve Powell's death and also allow more back-up to arrive (which they knew was only moments away).

And what is wrong with some form of retreat for re-grouping and re-assessment purposes?? That tactic was, and still is, used very effectively in war and riot situations. Bama, as usual, only thinks in terms of all-or-nothing extremes. In his eyes, there's no such thing as backing-up for a dozen yards or so to re-think. No, for him, even stepping back one pace means a whole total retreat and nobody should ever do that [8|]

They could use the car as a weapon (seen that done many times both here and in the US) to keep the officers away from the marauding knife-wielding attacker.

It doesn't take 12-15 seconds to switch to using different weapons in order to preserve life rather than taking it as a first option.

Back-up was moments away so any sort of diversionary/delaying tactic would have been fruitful.


There were many things they could have done to avoid Powell's death but they chose to kill him. As pixie said, I really don't think they considered any other option but the gun.
I appreciated the translation, and, because the officers were aware that Powell was goading them to kill him would (at least to me) have been even more reason to find a non-lethal way to disarm and restrain him.

I still think they took the easy way out and a defensible means to sweep the whole thing away.
We see that sort of thing over here sometimes (even when armed police are present) but most times the problematic individual is taken down without a shot being fired or anyone being seriously injured.

All too often in the US we see the police (and other armed individuals) shooting first rather than considering other non-lethal means of diffusing the situation. There are too many Bama-type gun owners that think the gun is the answer rather than part of the problem. Until that mind-set is addressed, the US will always have such stupid and unnecessary killings that the rest of the world looks at in utter disbelief at such madness.





SeekingTrinity -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 9:17:57 AM)

~FRing it~

Since I do see speculation on what police could have done differently (and they are valid points), Id like to speculate a little myself if that's cool. While it's true that the police could have driven away or used a taser or some other means instead of the gun, just how much of a shitstorm would they be in if this guy with a knife who is already highly agitated got pissed off enough at the cops not engaging him the way he was seemingly looking for and stabbed some innocent person who happened to be nearby while Officer X and Officer Y were having a planning session behind their car over what to do? If people are screaming because Powell was shot, Id imagine Joe or Joan or even little Jimmy Public bleeding out in the street while those damned cops just stood there and didn't do anything would cause just as much screaming.




Lucylastic -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 9:25:12 AM)

FR
Makes me wonder how on earth cops in other countries deal with knife wielding mentally ill people without anyone getting killed.
oh no it doesnt...




igor2003 -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 9:49:39 AM)

-FR-

There is a lot of bantering about a lot of things…should the cops have used guns or not used guns , did they stop too close to Powell when they got out of their car or not, etc. etc…

Personally, my own opinion is that for the most part the cops handled the situation as well as could be expected, given the short interval between when they pulled up and when the shooting started. It’s AFTER the shooting started that I personally question.

In the video I counted 9 shots. Powell was hit and on the ground after the first four. At that point he was pretty well incapacitated, and not knowing exactly where he had been hit with those first four it is hard to say whether he might have lived or not. But when he is shot 5 more times AFTER he is already down it seems to be decreasing his likelihood of survival with every shot.

It is due to those last 5 shots that I have to question the professionalism of these cops.




Kirata -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 10:11:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

In the video I counted 9 shots. Powell was hit and on the ground after the first four. At that point he was pretty well incapacitated, and not knowing exactly where he had been hit with those first four it is hard to say whether he might have lived or not. But when he is shot 5 more times AFTER he is already down it seems to be decreasing his likelihood of survival with every shot.

It is due to those last 5 shots that I have to question the professionalism of these cops.

Yes, I agree. If there's going to be a hanging, that's the rope. Not just using their weapons in the situation.

K.




BamaD -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 10:35:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


And mine doesn't celebrate death. Far less offensive avatars than his have been removed by the mods

If that man had been set on fire it would be offensive

If that man had been mentally unstable it would have been offensive

If you had any idea what that picture was about you would realise how completely ignorant and offensive your comment is.

It's almost funny how a man who constantly parrots the 2nd and how it "deters tyrannical government" can have no idea, and apparently no interest in that picture.

Kind of shows how one eyed you are.



I know what that picture is about, he set himself on fire as a political protest. Once again you show your arrogance by assuming that disapproval or disagreement means we are just to ignorant to understand.




BamaD -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 10:37:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

~FRing it~

Since I do see speculation on what police could have done differently (and they are valid points), Id like to speculate a little myself if that's cool. While it's true that the police could have driven away or used a taser or some other means instead of the gun, just how much of a shitstorm would they be in if this guy with a knife who is already highly agitated got pissed off enough at the cops not engaging him the way he was seemingly looking for and stabbed some innocent person who happened to be nearby while Officer X and Officer Y were having a planning session behind their car over what to do? If people are screaming because Powell was shot, Id imagine Joe or Joan or even little Jimmy Public bleeding out in the street while those damned cops just stood there and didn't do anything would cause just as much screaming.

Taser is off the table, they didn't have them.




SeekingTrinity -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 11:00:25 AM)

Sub in whatever they did have on hand. What they had or didn't have wasn't the main thrust of what I was getting at though [:)]. People have the luxury of Monday morning quarterbacking what occurred without the pressure or danger faced by the people in the area at the time of this shooting. Sometimes there unfortunately just isnt the time to debate between officers the pros and cons of each single piece of equipment they have on hand at the moment.

People would be screaming for blood if the cops stood around debating what they should do about Powell and someone else died because of that hesitation.




Kirata -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 11:04:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

If that man had been set on fire it would be offensive

If that man had been mentally unstable it would have been offensive

Who put you in charge of deciding what other people are permitted to find offensive?

K.






thompsonx -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 11:45:02 AM)


ORIGINAL: BamaD

Moron
I have said that there are forms of kevlar that are very effective against knives. They are, however, not the forms worn by patrol officers.

[bIt would seem quite obvious to the most casual observer who the moron is.
Do you just open your mouth to take a shit?



Stab armor and combination stab-ballistic armor[edit]

Early "ice pick" test[edit]

In the mid-1980s the state of California Department of Corrections issued a requirement for a body armor using a commercial ice pick as the test penetrator. The test method attempted to simulate the capacity of a human attacker to deliver impact energy with their upper body. As was later shown by the work of the former British PSDB, this test over stated the capacity of human attackers. The test used a drop mass or sabot that carried the ice pick. Using gravitational force, the height of the drop mass above the vest was proportional to the impact energy. This test specified 109 joules (81 ft·lbf) of energy and a 7.3 kg (16 lb) drop mass with a drop height of 153 cm (60 in).

The ice pick has a 4 mm (0.16 in) diameter with a sharp tip with a 5.4 m/s (17 ft/s) terminal velocity in the test. The California standard did not include knife or cutting edge weapons in the test protocol. The test method used the oil/clay (Roma Plastilena) tissue simulant as a test backing. In this early phase only titanium and steel plate offerings were successful in addressing this requirement. Point Blank developed the first ice pick certified offerings for CA Department of Corrections in shaped titanium sheet metal. Vests of this type are still in service in US corrections facilities as of 2008.

Beginning in the early 1990s, an optional test method was approved by California which permitted the use of 10% ballistic gelatin as a replacement for Roma clay. The transition from hard, dense clay-based Roma to soft low-density gelatin allowed all textile solutions to meet this attack energy requirement. Soft all textile “ice pick” vests began to be adopted by California and other US states as a result of this migration in the test methods. It is important for users to understand that the smooth, round tip of the ice pick does not cut fiber on impact and this permits the use of textile based vests for this application.

The earliest of these “all” fabric vests designed to address this ice pick test was Warwick Mills’s TurtleSkin ultra tightly woven para-aramid fabric with a patent filed in 1993.[50] Shortly after the TurtleSkin work, in 1995 DuPont patented a medium density fabric that was designated as Kevlar Correctional.[51] It should be noted that these textile materials do not have equal performance with cutting-edge threats and these certifications were only with ice pick and were not tested with knives.

Knife standards developed by HOSDB-Stab and Slash[edit]

Parallel to the US development of “ice pick” vests, the British police, PSDB, was working on standards for knife-resistant body armor. Their program adopted a rigorous scientific approach and collected data on human attack capacity.[52] Their ergonomic study suggested three levels of threat: 25, 35 and 45 joules of impact energy. In addition to impact energy attack, velocities were measured and were found to be 10–20 m/s (much faster than the California test). Two commercial knives were selected for use in this PSDB test method. In order to test at a representative velocity, an air cannon method was developed to propel the knife and sabot at the vest target using compressed air. In this first version, the PSDB ’93 test also used oil/clay materials as the tissue simulant backing. The introduction of knives which cut fiber and a hard-dense test backing required stab vest manufacturers to use metallic components in their vest designs to address this more rigorous standard. The current standard HOSDB Body Armour Standards for UK Police (2007) Part 3: Knife and Spike Resistance is harmonized with the US NIJ OO15 standard, use a drop test method and use a composite foam backing as a tissue simulant. Both the HOSDB and the NIJ test now specify engineered blades, double-edged S1 and single-edge P1 as well as the spike.

In addition to the stab standards, HOSDB has developed a standard for slash resistance (2006). This standard, like the stab standards, is based on drop testing with a test knife in a mounting of controlled mass. The slash test uses the Stanley Utility knife or box cutter blades. The slash standard tests the cut resistance of the armor panel parallel to the direction of blade travel. The test equipment measures the force at the instant the blade tip produces a sustained slash through the vest. The criteria require that slash failure of the armor be greater than 80 newtons of force.[53]

Combination stab and ballistic vests[edit]

Vests that combined stab and ballistic protection were a significant innovation in the 1990s period of vest development. The starting point for this development were the ballistic-only offerings of that time using NIJ Level 2A, 2, and 3A or HOSDB HG 1 and 2, with compliant ballistic vest products being manufactured with areal densities of between 5.5 and 6 kg/m² (1.1 and 1.2 lb/ft² or 18 and 20 oz/ft²). However police forces were evaluating their “street threats” and requiring vests with both knife and ballistic protection. This multi-threat approach is common in the United Kingdom and other European countries and is less popular in the USA. Unfortunately for multi-threat users, the metallic array and chainmail systems that were necessary to defeat the test blades offered little ballistic performance. The multi-threat vests have areal densities are close to the sum of the two solutions separately. These vests have mass values in the 7.5–8.5 kg/m² (1.55–1.75 lb/ft²) range. Ref (NIJ and HOSDB certification listings). Rolls Royce Composites -Megit and Highmark produced metallic array systems to address this HOSDB standard. These designs were used extensively by the London Metropolitan Police Service and other agencies in the United Kingdom.

Standards update US and UK[edit]





Metropolitan Police officers supervising World Cup, 2006
As vest manufactures and the specifying authorities worked with these standards, the UK and US Standards teams began a collaboration on test methods.[54] A number of issues with the first versions of the tests needed to be addressed. The use of commercial knives with inconsistent sharpness and tip shape created problems with test consistency. As a result, two new “engineered blades” were designed that could be manufactured to have reproducible penetrating behavior. The tissue simulants, Roma clay and gelatin, were either unrepresentative of tissue or not practical for the test operators. A composite-foam and hard-rubber test backing was developed as an alternative to address these issues. The drop test method was selected as the baseline for the updated standard over the air cannon option. The drop mass was reduced from the “ice pick test” and a wrist-like soft linkage was engineered into the penetrator-sabot to create a more realistic test impact. These closely related standards were first issued in 2003 as HOSDB 2003 and NIJ 0015. (The Police Scientific Development Branch (PSDB) was renamed the Home Office Scientific Development Branch in 2004.[55]

Stab and spike vests[edit]

These new standards created a focus on Level 1 at 25 joules (18 ft·lbf), Level 2 at 35 J (26 ft·lbf), Level 3 at 45 J (33 ft·lbf) protection as tested with the new engineered knives defined in these test documents. The lowest level of this requirement at 25 joules was addressed by a series of textile products of both wovens, coated wovens and laminated woven materials. All of these materials were based on Para-aramid fiber. The co-efficient of friction for ultra high molecular weigh polyethylene (UHMWPE) prevented its use in this application. The TurtleSkin DiamondCoat and Twaron SRM products addressed this requirement using a combination of Para-Aramid wovens and bonded ceramic grain. These ceramic-coated products do not the flexibility and softness of un-coated textile materials.

For the higher levels of protection L2 and L3, the very aggressive penetration of the small, thin P1 blade has resulted in the continued use of metallic components in stab armor. In Germany, Mehler Vario Systems have developed sophisticated hybrid vests of woven para-aramid and chain mail their solution was selected by the London Metro Police. Another German company BSST, in cooperation with Warwick Mills, has developed a system to meet the ballistic-stab requirement using Dyneema laminate and an advanced metallic-array system, TurtleSkin MFA. This system is currently implemented in the Netherlands. The trend in multi threat armor continues with requirements for needle protection in the Draft ISO prEN ISO 14876 norm. In many countries there is also an interest to combine military style explosive fragmentation protection with bullet-ballistics and stab requirements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletproof_vest#Stab_armor_and_combination_stab-ballistic_armor


So once again we see that your aligator mouth has overloaded your canary ass. Your opinions have been shown to be nothing more than the mindless chater of another blowhard chairborn ranger.



You dismiss the fact that Powell made sure that it was kill or be killed by bringing a knife to a gun fight and that he seems to have wanted the cops to shoot him.

In your zip code the cops have never heard of "suicide by cop" and have never had any training on how to deal with it? Perhaps that stunning and glaring piece of ignorance is what was the precipitate cause of this incident rather than an effort by the thugs with badges to empliment a little retroactive birth control on the black community.





thompsonx -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 11:51:14 AM)

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

This thread is about the death of a black man which you diminished by saying he killed himself.

Ohhhh, it was a black man, not an ordinary human being.

Well, that changes everything.

I knew you could be depended on to notice that this discussion is not about a black cop executing a white emotionally disturbed individual. The fact that hapens so seldom that when it does, every bigot on this site post it simultaniously as proof positive that the "white minority" is about to be overrun by the black racist that outnumber and outgun them.
That you recognize that difference shows me that my faith in your basic humanity has not been misplaced.
Now when the number of black cops executing whites exceeds the number of white cops executing blacks then that difference will cease to exist.





thompsonx -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 11:56:25 AM)


ORIGINAL: BamaD

Drove off, in case you aren't smart enough to understand that is running away

Like the cops did with clive bundy. So the issue is if one presents enouh force against the badged thugs it is ok for them to back down[8|] Your logic is...interesting.




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