RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (Full Version)

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BamaD -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 2:39:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

So you're saying that in all places all over the world outside of the US, even when the police are armed to the teeth, that absolutely no one ever does at the hands of the police? Ever?

No, I didn't say that.

It does happen on odd occasions. But when this does happen, it's usually headline news.
But.... generally speaking, most of these incidents are resolved and defused without having to shoot or kill the individual. And, usually, the police (even the unarmed ones) are rarely injured and not seriously.

Yes, it does happen once in a while. But not often.

All we see on international news is people being shot (and usually fatally) in the US and a lot of us outside of the US think that it just wasn't necessary to deal with the situation in that manner.


That is because the news you depend on grossly distorts the picture.




BamaD -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 2:43:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

Tactical retreat would be great IF this particular incident took place in a bubble where no one else was at any sort of risk. Id even go on record as saying Id be all for it...but for one reason. We aren't talking Stephen King's Under The Dome here. We're talking a neighborhood street where any person just going about their day could have come into contact with what clearly a highly agitated individual not thinking rationally (an example is yelling "shoot me" and moving towards folks who could in fact actually shoot you) and armed with a weapon that can harm or even kill depending on where a person is stabbed. The cops might have had Kevlar and I know there had already been a debate over knives versus Kevlar, but average citizens don't go strolling around wearing it. Had someone else been hurt or killed while the two officers in question were driving all over creation to put enough space between them and him, people would be screaming about why those asshole cops didn't do anything.

I wish it hadn't happened either. It's never good to see a life cut short for any reason. And I'll readily admit that cops can screw up when it comes to dealing with people who have any sort of mental crisis or illness going on. But those cops were entrusted with trying to preserve a whole lot of lives...theirs, their partner's, Powell's if they could, AND the lives of the citizens who were in the area. Sadly Powell didn't leave many choices for a favorable outcome. If you or your loved one's happened to be in the neighborhood that day, would you be willing to die or have them die so that Powell could have lived?

Look at the video in the first post again.

The officers didn't think.
They shouted a few things and opened fire.
Powell didn't stand a chance.

This sort of thing happens all over the world but rarely, outside of the US, do people get shot, let alone killed as a result of the confrontation.
Sorry... gun-ho trigger-happy cops.


When I was with our Sheriff's office a "unarmed" man decided to resist.
In order to avoid injuring him six officers brought him down without using any weapons.
He bit one of the officers.
Trivial you are thinking, but he had AIDS.




Gauge -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 2:43:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

No, I didn't say that.

It does happen on odd occasions. But when this does happen, it's usually headline news.
But.... generally speaking, most of these incidents are resolved and defused without having to shoot or kill the individual. And, usually, the police (even the unarmed ones) are rarely injured and not seriously.

Yes, it does happen once in a while. But not often.

All we see on international news is people being shot (and usually fatally) in the US and a lot of us outside of the US think that it just wasn't necessary to deal with the situation in that manner.



All of the shit that has been resolved peacefully or without someone dying is not newsworthy. These incidents are the exception rather than the rule.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 2:43:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Nightsticks go out the window when the criminal when the criminal deploys lethal force. I didn't say they would have been killed, I said they could have been injured or killed. Clearly that is ok with you, they were only cops, not like they were people.
Since you are so brilliant how did the cops know there weren't people inside the store bleeding to death when they arrived? After all they were answering an armed robbery call. I don't know how nice criminals in Briton are but here they tend to get upset when you report them.

Where was the lethal force??? I didn't see any except for the cops opening fire.
Potential threat, yes. But no lethal force.
And if your police force aren't trained enough to disable a kife-wielding attacker, they shouldn't be out there. Our police, like many other forces, do this regularly and without guns.

They didn't know.
But, as usual, you like to throw in "what if's" and Maybe's" that weren't obvious at the time just to muddy the waters.
There weren't. Simple as that.

Criminals are everywhere and I would suggest that most have a similar mindset.
Powell was obviously deranged. That was evident from his words and actions right off the bat.
That, in and of itself, should have called for different tactics.
Those officers chose to kill him instead.


Your whole argument has been what if. The cops had to look at wounded people inside the store as a serious consideration. I am talking about what the cops had to consider with what they knew at the time. What we know because we have had a week to look at it is of no importance. Maybe nobody told you but a knife is a lethal weapon. Maybe nobody told you but cops are taught that if a person as close as he was charges they will get cut. Maybe you don't know your rectum from a hole in the ground.
Maybe that is why they didn't invite him to have tea.

Nope. Sorry... don't follow your gun-ho myopic logic.

My answers have been to what I saw on the video and your black & white all-or-nothing points.

"...cops are taught that if a person as close as he was charges they will get cut"
Really?? Our cops are taught how to deal with people like that without getting killed or even hurt.

You either have piss-poor cops in the US (which I don't believe) or that the gun culture leads them to believe that there is only simple way to deal with people like this... shoot them.




BamaD -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 2:44:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

No, I didn't say that.

It does happen on odd occasions. But when this does happen, it's usually headline news.
But.... generally speaking, most of these incidents are resolved and defused without having to shoot or kill the individual. And, usually, the police (even the unarmed ones) are rarely injured and not seriously.

Yes, it does happen once in a while. But not often.

All we see on international news is people being shot (and usually fatally) in the US and a lot of us outside of the US think that it just wasn't necessary to deal with the situation in that manner.



All of the shit that has been resolved peacefully or without someone dying is not newsworthy. These incidents are the exception rather than the rule.

TY




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 2:45:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

No, I didn't say that.

It does happen on odd occasions. But when this does happen, it's usually headline news.
But.... generally speaking, most of these incidents are resolved and defused without having to shoot or kill the individual. And, usually, the police (even the unarmed ones) are rarely injured and not seriously.

Yes, it does happen once in a while. But not often.

All we see on international news is people being shot (and usually fatally) in the US and a lot of us outside of the US think that it just wasn't necessary to deal with the situation in that manner.



All of the shit that has been resolved peacefully or without someone dying is not newsworthy. These incidents are the exception rather than the rule.

Then explain why we see this shit on a daily basis in the US???
We don't see it with such abundance from any other country - not even war zones!!




SeekingTrinity -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 2:51:25 PM)

Many situations are peacefully resolved here as well. But how many times have you heard in your country's media reports anything along the lines of "and in US news today, police in <fill in the blank> successfully disarmed someone and peacefully took them into custody"? Our own media here rarely reports it either, so our media is equally biased and slanted towards personal agendas too. But it honestly does happen. It's sad, but controversy sells. Positive never does as brisk a business as scandal does.

The sad reality is that sometimes situations cannot be peacefully resolved. We can say they could be, but we are able to look at this from the Monday-morning quarterback perspective. It lacks all of the pressure, intensity, and danger faced by everyone in the situation at the time.




thompsonx -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 2:53:46 PM)


ORIGINAL: BamaD

Maybe nobody told you but a knife is a lethal weapon. Maybe nobody told you but cops are taught that if a person as close as he was charges they will get cut.


Lets take a look at your mindless igorance. A man with a steak knife and no body armor can, when within a given distance, guarantee a cut on his target. Would it not follow that an armed,trained copper with body armor and a stick, that is maybe a foot or two longer than the steak knife, might in fact own any punk within that distance by the use of the same tactic? [8|]




Maybe you don't know your rectum from a hole in the ground.


It would appear that you do not since you still are pimping the idea that a steak knife will penetrate body armor.[8|]







freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 2:57:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

Many situations are peacefully resolved here as well. But how many times have you heard in your country's media reports anything along the lines of "and in US news today, police in <fill in the blank> successfully disarmed someone and peacefully took them into custody"? Our own media here rarely reports it either, but it does happen. It's sad, but controversy sells. Positive never does as brisk a business as scandal does.

Funilly enough, I hear it quite often.
My TV is never switched off - it's permanently on some news channel... CNBC, BBC (mostly), Bloomburg, Fox, ABC, Sky, etc. I listen to it all night long.

But, I hear more of gun deaths than near-misses from all channels and virtually all in the US.
I rarely hear of other countries and what I do hear usually doesn't involve a death.

ETA: I usually have several news channels playing in the background when I'm on my PC too!
I'm a news junkie [:D]




thompsonx -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 2:58:23 PM)


ORIGINAL: BamaD

When I was with our Sheriff's office a "unarmed" man decided to resist.
In order to avoid injuring him six officers brought him down without using any weapons.

What were they six girl scouts? Was he king kong? who the fuck do you think you are talking to?


He bit one of the officers.
Trivial you are thinking, but he had AIDS.

Then you should be able to bring up the newspaper story about it and then the follow up where the coppers got aids or did not? [8|] Or is this yet another one of your chairbourn ranger fantasies?







BamaD -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 3:01:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Nightsticks go out the window when the criminal when the criminal deploys lethal force. I didn't say they would have been killed, I said they could have been injured or killed. Clearly that is ok with you, they were only cops, not like they were people.
Since you are so brilliant how did the cops know there weren't people inside the store bleeding to death when they arrived? After all they were answering an armed robbery call. I don't know how nice criminals in Briton are but here they tend to get upset when you report them.

Where was the lethal force??? I didn't see any except for the cops opening fire.
Potential threat, yes. But no lethal force.
And if your police force aren't trained enough to disable a kife-wielding attacker, they shouldn't be out there. Our police, like many other forces, do this regularly and without guns.

They didn't know.
But, as usual, you like to throw in "what if's" and Maybe's" that weren't obvious at the time just to muddy the waters.
There weren't. Simple as that.

Criminals are everywhere and I would suggest that most have a similar mindset.
Powell was obviously deranged. That was evident from his words and actions right off the bat.
That, in and of itself, should have called for different tactics.
Those officers chose to kill him instead.


Your whole argument has been what if. The cops had to look at wounded people inside the store as a serious consideration. I am talking about what the cops had to consider with what they knew at the time. What we know because we have had a week to look at it is of no importance. Maybe nobody told you but a knife is a lethal weapon. Maybe nobody told you but cops are taught that if a person as close as he was charges they will get cut. Maybe you don't know your rectum from a hole in the ground.
Maybe that is why they didn't invite him to have tea.

Nope. Sorry... don't follow your gun-ho myopic logic.

My answers have been to what I saw on the video and your black & white all-or-nothing points.

"...cops are taught that if a person as close as he was charges they will get cut"
Really?? Our cops are taught how to deal with people like that without getting killed or even hurt.

You either have piss-poor cops in the US (which I don't believe) or that the gun culture leads them to believe that there is only simple way to deal with people like this... shoot them.


Look up 21 foot rule.




SeekingTrinity -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 3:03:17 PM)

That's actually comforting to know that good news gets reported too [:)]




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 3:05:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Look up 21 foot rule.

Oh right!!! [8|]

Next you'll be telling me that officers carry a tape measure to fit that "rule"??
Or maybe they'll be super-efficient and carry a laser measuring device. [:D]

The rules go out the window when lives are at stake.
I think most people can go with that.
But, again, looking at the video, I saw nothing substantially or inherently dangerous enough that the officers couldn't have taken a different non-lethal route.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 3:12:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

That's actually comforting to know that good news gets reported too [:)]

If I were to make a stab at any stats (purely from my guesstimation, nothing more), I'd say that "good outcomes" are about 99% elsewhere in the world and "bad outcomes" (where there is a death) is about 95% or more and 99.9% of those are in the US alone.

To try and put that into perspective, I hear of a "good" (non-death) situation about once a month.
Every day, and often more than one different incident, seems to happen that a death occurs in the US and virtually always by a gun rather than any other weapon.





thompsonx -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 3:13:16 PM)


ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


But, again, looking at the video, I saw nothing substantially or inherently dangerous enough that the officers couldn't have taken a different non-lethal route.

So you did not notice that he was black? Maybe if you slowed the video down?[8|]




AQRMZ -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 3:13:45 PM)

In support of BD. Saves him the trouble. Of course he will just ignore. And, Like they said in class and many times since, "real life ain't like TV or a Movie."
--------------------------------
Tueller Drill

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search


The Tueller Drill is a self-defense training exercise to prepare against a short-range knife attack when armed only with a holstered handgun.

Sergeant Dennis Tueller, of the Salt Lake City, Utah Police Department wondered how quickly an attacker with a knife could cover 21 feet (6.4 m), so he timed volunteers as they raced to stab the target. He determined that it could be done in 1.5 seconds. These results were first published as an article in SWAT magazine in 1983 and in a police training video by the same title, "How Close is Too Close?"[1]

A defender with a gun has a dilemma. If he shoots too early, he risks being charged with murder. If he waits until the attacker is definitely within striking range so there is no question about motives, he risks injury and even death. The Tueller experiments quantified a "danger zone" where an attacker presented a clear threat.[2]

The Tueller Drill combines both parts of the original time trials by Tueller. There are several ways it can be conducted:[3]
1.The "attacker and shooter are positioned back-to-back. At the signal, the attacker sprints away from the shooter, and the shooter unholsters his gun and shoots at the target 21 feet (6.4 m) in front of him. The attacker stops as soon as the shot is fired. The shooter is successful only if his shot is good and if the runner did not cover 21 feet (6.4 m).
2.A more stressful arrangement is to have the attacker begin 21 feet (6.4 m) behind the shooter and run towards the shooter. The shooter is successful only if he was able take a good shot before he is tapped on the back by the attacker.
3.If the shooter is armed with only a training replica gun, a full-contact drill may be done with the attacker running towards the shooter. In this variation, the shooter should practice side-stepping the attacker while he is drawing the gun.

Mythbusters covered the drill in the 2012 episode "Duel Dilemmas". At 20 feet the gun wielder was able to shoot the charging knife attacker just as he reached the shooter. At shorter distances the knife wielder was always able to stab prior to being shot.[4]

----------------
http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/102828-Edged-Weapon-Defense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/

(this is only an excerpt from a much longer piece.)

For more than 20 years now, a concept called the 21-Foot Rule has been a core component in training officers to defend themselves against edged weapons.

1. Because of a prevalent misinterpretation, the 21-Foot Rule has been dangerously corrupted.

2. When properly understood, the 21-Foot Rule is still valid in certain limited circumstances.

3. For many officers and situations, a 21-foot reactionary gap is not sufficient.

4. The weapon that officers often think they can depend on to defeat knife attacks can't be relied upon to protect them in many cases.

5. Training in edged-weapon defense should by no means be abandoned.
--------------------------
http://www.21footrule.com/


http://bigstory.ap.org/article/us-dea-agent-killed-colombia-robbery-attempt
Friday, June 21, 2013

DEA agent stabbed to death

Despite the "I'll just shoot him" bravado, the gun culture keeps dying by the knife culture. It is unclear whether or not he had an equalizer such as a gun or a knife, but it is clear he died by the knife.





freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 3:19:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


But, again, looking at the video, I saw nothing substantially or inherently dangerous enough that the officers couldn't have taken a different non-lethal route.

So you did not notice that he was black? Maybe if you slowed the video down?[8|]


I don't consider a black man to be any more dangerous than a white man, or a yellow man, or even a pink man with yellow spots (aka, Mr Blobby! lol).

The colour of his skin makes no difference and I won't succumb to a racially-slurred PoV on what I consider to be a perfectly simple case of over-zealous trigger-happy cops.




PeonForHer -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 3:26:20 PM)

quote:

Taser is off the table, they didn't have them.


As a matter of interest - why? Someone has been shot, recently, in the area, and it's caused a monumental outcry across the country. Wouldn't it have been prudent to avoid any more shootings by, for instance, arming police ASAP with non-lethal weapons and telling them to for God's sake use these *first*?




thompsonx -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 3:31:25 PM)


ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


But, again, looking at the video, I saw nothing substantially or inherently dangerous enough that the officers couldn't have taken a different non-lethal route.

So you did not notice that he was black? Maybe if you slowed the video down?[8|]




I don't consider a black man to be any more dangerous than a white man, or a yellow man, or even a pink man with yellow spots (aka, Mr Blobby! lol).


It would appear that my attempt at humor was lost on you. He was shot for being black in public. If pamala anderson was acting like that you can bet your as there would have been a wraslin' match and not a gunfight.

The colour of his skin makes no difference and I won't succumb to a racially-slurred PoV on what I consider to be a perfectly simple case of over-zealous trigger-happy cops.

I think I can come up with a pretty simple way to disabuse you of your ingorance.
Take a look see at how many blacks get shot like this vs. how many whites. Then consider that whites outnumber blacks in this country by about four to one. Dont forget to factor that into your cipherin'







freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/28/2014 3:32:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Taser is off the table, they didn't have them.


As a matter of interest - why? Someone has been shot, recently, in the area, and it's caused a monumental outcry across the country. Wouldn't it have been prudent to avoid any more shootings by, for instance, arming police ASAP with non-lethal weapons and telling them to for God's sake use these *first*?

The problem is, Peon, an awful lot of Americans don't think like that.

They have the gun. The 2nd gives them 'rights' to carry and use one and by golly that's what they're gonna do! [:D]

Tazers aren't as much fun - so they don't carry them in favour of a proper 'real' gun.




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