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RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/22/2014 10:18:48 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
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Status: offline 		South Korea? Chortles. Do you know when, and how, S Korea became a functioning democracy?


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RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/22/2014 3:08:47 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
I'm shocked that French bombs can find their way to the ground.
Anoher moron who does not believe in gravity[/color]
Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?

A quality post Thompson.

Cite please


Fuck!! That was funny!!! Nice one!!


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RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/22/2014 3:35:25 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
the best way to bring people to enlightened democracy isn't by killing them.

I'd be interested to know of how many countries around the world have had democracy forced upon them and it has worked and stood the test of time.
I can't think of many.
It worked in Germany but that country was the odd one out of the bunch because it was highly civilised for obvious reasons that don't need to be explained,
But, where else?
I think that people/countries have to go through the civil strife in order to arrive at the obvious conclusion.
And, what I meant to say but didn't is that democracy is organic. It is a thought process that only you can solve; no one can do it for you.
The whole point of democracy is that you think for yourself, and if someone else is doing the thinking for you then that's a monumental paradox that simply can't be reconciled.


It's a bit fucked up to think you can "force" democracy onto a people. Talk about cognitive dissonance!

While it's possible for one nation to help another nation change to a democratic (or a democratic republic) form of government, that nation has to choose for itself that it's going to be some form of democracy. If the typical citizen of a country doesn't truly want a democracy or a republic, he isn't going to be willing to lay down his life for it. Without that, it's going to be damn difficult to change a country's government.


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RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/22/2014 5:00:14 PM   
cloudboy


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Status: offline 		According to the NYT -- air strikes are not working to reduce ISIS territorial foothold. Part of the foreign policy decision-making is who do you back to do the actual fighting on the ground? The IRAQI army looks too petrified to do anything at all.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 9/22/2014 5:05:16 PM >

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RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/22/2014 5:05:27 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


According to the NYT -- air strikes are not working to reduce ISIS territorial foothold. Part of the foreign policy decision-making is who do you back to do the actual fighting on the ground?

I have stated repeatedly that the Kurds would have to be first choice.
But let's face it, even Assad is less dangerous than ISIS.

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RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/22/2014 6:36:31 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
According to the NYT -- air strikes are not working to reduce ISIS territorial foothold. Part of the foreign policy decision-making is who do you back to do the actual fighting on the ground? The IRAQI army looks too petrified to do anything at all.


Who do we back? Why should we back anyone yet? If the Iraqi's aren't willing to fight and die for it, they aren't the ones to back.

We might need to wait and see who is willing to fight and die for their freedom.


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What I support:

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RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/22/2014 6:48:06 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
According to the NYT -- air strikes are not working to reduce ISIS territorial foothold. Part of the foreign policy decision-making is who do you back to do the actual fighting on the ground? The IRAQI army looks too petrified to do anything at all.


Who do we back? Why should we back anyone yet? If the Iraqi's aren't willing to fight and die for it, they aren't the ones to back.

We might need to wait and see who is willing to fight and die for their freedom.


That is why my first choice would be the Kurds. They are fighting for their freedom without outside help and have had more success than much better equipped forces.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/22/2014 7:11:47 PM   
cloudboy


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My question was a general one. It's hard for soldiers to fight and try to protect a failed state -- something that IRAQ highly resembles....

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RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/22/2014 7:43:24 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

According to the NYT -- air strikes are not working to reduce ISIS territorial foothold. Part of the foreign policy decision-making is who do you back to do the actual fighting on the ground? The IRAQI army looks too petrified to do anything at all.

First day of bombing in Syria, a little early to declare failure isn't it.
Turn it around, we have had sanctions all day and they haven't worked.

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/23/2014 3:12:53 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
My question was a general one. It's hard for soldiers to fight and try to protect a failed state -- something that IRAQ highly resembles....


Iraq was stable when we pulled out, wasn't it?

If Iraq is a failed state, then there isn't any state to defend.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
According to the NYT -- air strikes are not working to reduce ISIS territorial foothold. Part of the foreign policy decision-making is who do you back to do the actual fighting on the ground? The IRAQI army looks too petrified to do anything at all.

Who do we back? Why should we back anyone yet? If the Iraqi's aren't willing to fight and die for it, they aren't the ones to back.
We might need to wait and see who is willing to fight and die for their freedom.

That is why my first choice would be the Kurds. They are fighting for their freedom without outside help and have had more success than much better equipped forces.


The only problem with that, though, is that the Kurds want their freedom from Iraq, too. So, we won't actually be defending Iraq. We'll be helping the Kurds protect themselves from ISIS AND helping them separate from Iraq.

All the while, this isn't our fight, and there isn't any authority we can rest on to act.


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What I support:

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RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/23/2014 3:17:40 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
According to the NYT -- air strikes are not working to reduce ISIS territorial foothold. Part of the foreign policy decision-making is who do you back to do the actual fighting on the ground? The IRAQI army looks too petrified to do anything at all.

First day of bombing in Syria, a little early to declare failure isn't it.
Turn it around, we have had sanctions all day and they haven't worked.


And, that is where the problem resides.

ISIS will act to preserve itself, at the expense of innocent civilians. Sanctions won't hit ISIS. It will hit the civilians. Air strikes might hit ISIS and do a great deal of damage to the group, but it's also going to hit civilians, creating an atmosphere that will make it easier for ISIS (or another group) to grow.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/23/2014 5:19:20 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
According to the NYT -- air strikes are not working to reduce ISIS territorial foothold. Part of the foreign policy decision-making is who do you back to do the actual fighting on the ground? The IRAQI army looks too petrified to do anything at all.

First day of bombing in Syria, a little early to declare failure isn't it.
Turn it around, we have had sanctions all day and they haven't worked.


And, that is where the problem resides.

ISIS will act to preserve itself, at the expense of innocent civilians. Sanctions won't hit ISIS. It will hit the civilians. Air strikes might hit ISIS and do a great deal of damage to the group, but it's also going to hit civilians, creating an atmosphere that will make it easier for ISIS (or another group) to grow.



The civilians who ISIS is massacring are very likely to see our airstrikes against ISIS as a good thing.

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RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/23/2014 5:21:34 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
My question was a general one. It's hard for soldiers to fight and try to protect a failed state -- something that IRAQ highly resembles....


Iraq was stable when we pulled out, wasn't it?

If Iraq is a failed state, then there isn't any state to defend.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
According to the NYT -- air strikes are not working to reduce ISIS territorial foothold. Part of the foreign policy decision-making is who do you back to do the actual fighting on the ground? The IRAQI army looks too petrified to do anything at all.

Who do we back? Why should we back anyone yet? If the Iraqi's aren't willing to fight and die for it, they aren't the ones to back.
We might need to wait and see who is willing to fight and die for their freedom.

That is why my first choice would be the Kurds. They are fighting for their freedom without outside help and have had more success than much better equipped forces.


The only problem with that, though, is that the Kurds want their freedom from Iraq, too. So, we won't actually be defending Iraq. We'll be helping the Kurds protect themselves from ISIS AND helping them separate from Iraq.

All the while, this isn't our fight, and there isn't any authority we can rest on to act.



It is our fight. Protecting innocent civilians and preventing the spread of the cancer that is ISIS is good in its own right, and is its own reward.

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RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/23/2014 7:15:18 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		W has brought those freedoms to the area, right?

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RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/23/2014 10:54:56 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

W has brought those freedoms to the area, right?


According to some, yes.

Barack Obama: 'We're Leaving Behind a Sovereign, Stable and Self-Reliant Iraq'

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/12/14/remarks-president-and-first-lady-end-war-iraq

Joe Biden:

quote:


“I am very optimistic about Iraq. I think it’s gonna be one of the great achievements of this administration. You’re gonna see 90,000 American troops come marchin’ home by the end of the summer. You’re gonna see a stable government in Iraq that is actually movin’ toward a representative government. I’ve been there 17 times now. I go about every two months, three months. I know every one of the major players in all the segments of that society. It’s impressed me. I’ve been impressed, how they have been deciding to use the political process, rather than guns, to settle their differences.”

Then Joe rode off on a unicorn down a road made of rainbows.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/06/12/watch-joe-biden-call-iraq-one-of-the-great-achievements-of-this-administration/



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RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/23/2014 11:00:38 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Yet W and the nutsuckers seem to have created this mess they are distancing themselves from and foisting blame on others for.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1411750/mpage_14/key_freedom/tm.htm#1423952
http://www.collarchat.com/m_954826/mpage_1/key_freedom/tm.htm#955034

Nutsuckers have molded and guided your mind, so your thought belongs to them. Free yourself.

Here is a pretty big headpipe you blew:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_2342761/mpage_4/key_stable/tm.htm#2344946


This mission was never accomplished, unless the nutsuckers goal was the massive destabilation of the middle east, and they did that in spades.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 9/23/2014 11:11:40 AM >

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RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/23/2014 1:48:35 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
According to the NYT -- air strikes are not working to reduce ISIS territorial foothold. Part of the foreign policy decision-making is who do you back to do the actual fighting on the ground? The IRAQI army looks too petrified to do anything at all.

First day of bombing in Syria, a little early to declare failure isn't it.
Turn it around, we have had sanctions all day and they haven't worked.

And, that is where the problem resides.
ISIS will act to preserve itself, at the expense of innocent civilians. Sanctions won't hit ISIS. It will hit the civilians. Air strikes might hit ISIS and do a great deal of damage to the group, but it's also going to hit civilians, creating an atmosphere that will make it easier for ISIS (or another group) to grow.

The civilians who ISIS is massacring are very likely to see our airstrikes against ISIS as a good thing.


I look forward to you posting a poll of all the massacred people who are "for" our airstrikes.


_____________________________

What I support:

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  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 317
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/23/2014 1:50:13 PM   
cloudboy


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Once again you've proven that CROSS EXAMINATION is better than sex.

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RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/23/2014 1:51:38 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
All the while, this isn't our fight, and there isn't any authority we can rest on to act.

It is our fight. Protecting innocent civilians and preventing the spread of the cancer that is ISIS is good in its own right, and is its own reward.


That's not true at all. The United States of America was not set up to protect innocent civilians of other countries, in other countries. Nor was it set up to prevent the spread of "cancers" in foreign countries.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
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Profile   Post #: 319
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/23/2014 2:04:22 PM   
BitYakin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
All the while, this isn't our fight, and there isn't any authority we can rest on to act.

It is our fight. Protecting innocent civilians and preventing the spread of the cancer that is ISIS is good in its own right, and is its own reward.


That's not true at all. The United States of America was not set up to protect innocent civilians of other countries, in other countries. Nor was it set up to prevent the spread of "cancers" in foreign countries.



well he never said the USA was set up to do that, he said doing it was good and its own reward...

sort of like its not my JOB to help my neighbor when he is stuck in the snow, but it is the neighborly thing to do

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