quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Everything you have said so far on this thread indicates that you have a deeply fucked up understanding of jihad.

The best way to fight jihad over the long term is books and schools. The very worst way to fight it is by creating more martyrs for their fucked up cause.

Sure, there has to be a military response to ISIS, but unless you are labouring under the mapprehension that the Vietnam war was a win for freedom and democracy you should have a fair idea of the long term effectiveness of military might is in situations like this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Everything you have said so far on this thread indicates that you have a deeply fucked up understanding of jihad.

The best way to fight jihad over the long term is books and schools. The very worst way to fight it is by creating more martyrs for their fucked up cause.

Sure, there has to be a military response to ISIS, but unless you are labouring under the mapprehension that the Vietnam war was a win for freedom and democracy you should have a fair idea of the long term effectiveness of military might is in situations like this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


NYT contributers are all over the map about what to do. Here's one Machiavellian proposal:

To Crush ISIS, Make a Deal With Assad

• the only real “boots on the ground” capable of destroying ISIS are the Syrian Army and its local allies, including Hezbollah.

• Despite its oppressive and brutal history, Mr. Assad’s regime not only poses no discernible threat to the West or its interests, but is ready and willing to act on the basis of common objectives.

• First, it is imperative to find a way to work with the most effective forces on the ground: Mr. Assad’s Syrian Army and the Iranian-backed Hezbollah fighters. All of the West’s differences with the Syrian regime should be postponed until the tide of battle has turned.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/16/opinion/to-crush-isis-make-a-deal-with-assad-.html

The logic here is: the palatable allies can't win -- so strike a deal with someone who can.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Isis and Assad are allies

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Isis and Assad are allies

My understanding is that ISIS came into being to fight ASSAD. Check your facts. Remember that Fox News trucks in bad information.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Isis and Assad are allies

My understanding is that ISIS came into being to fight ASSAD. Check your facts. Remember that Fox News trucks in bad information.

Then why does Assad oppose bombing ISIS?

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Isis and Assad are allies

My understanding is that ISIS came into being to fight ASSAD. Check your facts. Remember that Fox News trucks in bad information.

Then why does Assad oppose bombing ISIS?

Perhaps it's because ISIS is also fighting against Assad's foes? Looks like there is a "Opposite of" Love Triangle thing going on there.

ISIS was fighting against Assad with the Syrian "rebels." Now, the rebels and ISIS are also fighting, while Assad is fighting both.

At least that's the way I understand it.

There were concerns raised about whether or not we armed ISIS when we were sending arms to anti-Assad rebels.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Isis and Assad are allies

My understanding is that ISIS came into being to fight ASSAD. Check your facts. Remember that Fox News trucks in bad information.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Isis and Assad are allies

My understanding is that ISIS came into being to fight ASSAD. Check your facts. Remember that Fox News trucks in bad information.

Then why does Assad oppose bombing ISIS?

Perhaps it's because ISIS is also fighting against Assad's foes? Looks like there is a "Opposite of" Love Triangle thing going on there.
ISIS was fighting against Assad with the Syrian "rebels." Now, the rebels and ISIS are also fighting, while Assad is fighting both.
At least that's the way I understand it.
There were concerns raised about whether or not we armed ISIS when we were sending arms to anti-Assad rebels.

Sorry I missed when we sent arms to anti Assad rebels, doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that I missed it.
Isis went in originally to help Assad but they could easily decided he is in the way of their caliphate.

quote:

Declaration and dispute with al-Nusra Front
In March 2011, protests began in Syria against the government of Bashar al-Assad. In the following months, violence between demonstrators and security forces led to a gradual militarisation of the conflict.[283] In August 2011, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi began sending Syrian and Iraqi ISI members, experienced in guerilla warfare, across the border into Syria to establish an organization inside the country. Led by a Syrian known as Abu Muhammad al-Jawlani, the group began to recruit fighters and establish cells throughout the country.[284][285] On 23 January 2012, the group announced its formation as Jabhat al-Nusra li Ahl as-Sham—Jabhat al-Nusra—more commonly known as al-Nusra Front. Al-Nusra grew rapidly into a capable fighting force with popular support among Syrian opposition.[284]

In April 2013, al-Baghdadi released an audio statement in which he announced that al-Nusra Front had been established, financed and supported by the Islamic State of Iraq[286] and that the two groups were merging under the name "Islamic State of Iraq and Al-Sham".[91] Al-Jawlani issued a statement denying the merger and complaining that neither he nor anyone else in al-Nusra's leadership had been consulted about it.[287] In June 2013, Al Jazeera reported that it had obtained a letter written by al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri, addressed to both leaders, in which he ruled against the merger, and appointed an emissary to oversee relations between them to put an end to tensions.[288] In the same month, al-Baghdadi released an audio message rejecting al-Zawahiri's ruling and declaring that the merger was going ahead.[289] In October 2013, al-Zawahiri ordered the disbanding of ISIS, putting al-Nusra Front in charge of jihadist efforts in Syria,[290] but al-Baghdadi contested al-Zawahiri's ruling on the basis of Islamic jurisprudence,[289] and the group continued to operate in Syria. In February 2014, after an eight-month power struggle, al-Qaeda disavowed any relations with ISIS.[81]

According to journalist Sarah Birke, there are "significant differences" between al-Nusra Front and ISIS. While al-Nusra actively calls for the overthrow of the Assad government, ISIS "tends to be more focused on establishing its own rule on conquered territory". ISIS is "far more ruthless" in building an Islamic state, "carrying out sectarian attacks and imposing sharia law immediately". While al-Nusra has a "large contingent of foreign fighters", it is seen as a home-grown group by many Syrians; by contrast, ISIS fighters have been described as "foreign 'occupiers'" by many Syrian refugees.[291] It has a strong presence in central and northern Syria, where it has instituted sharia in a number of towns.[291] The group reportedly controlled the four border towns of Atmeh, al-Bab, Azaz and Jarablus, allowing it to control the entrance and exit from Syria into Turkey.[291] Foreign fighters in Syria include Russian-speaking jihadists who were part of Jaish al-Muhajireen wal-Ansar (JMA).[292] In November 2013, the JMA's ethnic Chechen leader Abu Omar al-Shishani swore an oath of allegiance to al-Baghdadi;[293] the group then split between those who followed al-Shishani in joining ISIS and those who continued to operate independently in the JMA under a new leadership.[14]

In May 2014, al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri ordered al-Nusra Front to stop attacks on its rival ISIS.[31] In June 2014, after continued fighting between the two groups, al-Nusra's branch in the Syrian town of al-Bukamal pledged allegiance to ISIS.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Isis and Assad are allies

My understanding is that ISIS came into being to fight ASSAD. Check your facts. Remember that Fox News trucks in bad information.

Well, IS said that they came into being to establish a caliphate to rule over all the Muslims. But what the f&ck do they know? They think they are Islamic as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Isis and Assad are allies

My understanding is that ISIS came into being to fight ASSAD. Check your facts. Remember that Fox News trucks in bad information.

Then why does Assad oppose bombing ISIS?

Perhaps it's because ISIS is also fighting against Assad's foes? Looks like there is a "Opposite of" Love Triangle thing going on there.
ISIS was fighting against Assad with the Syrian "rebels." Now, the rebels and ISIS are also fighting, while Assad is fighting both.
At least that's the way I understand it.
There were concerns raised about whether or not we armed ISIS when we were sending arms to anti-Assad rebels.

Sorry I missed when we sent arms to anti Assad rebels, doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that I missed it.
Isis went in originally to help Assad but they could easily decided he is in the way of their caliphate.

http://rt.com/news/164536-syria-rebels-supplied-lethal/

http://rt.com/news/congress-approves-weapons-syria-secretly-270/

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/14/world/meast/syria-civil-war/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#As_Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant_.282013.E2.80.932014.29

quote:

Declaration and dispute with al-Nusra Front
In March 2011, protests began in Syria against the government of Bashar al-Assad. In the following months, violence between demonstrators and security forces led to a gradual militarisation of the conflict.[283] In August 2011, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi began sending Syrian and Iraqi ISI members, experienced in guerilla warfare, across the border into Syria to establish an organization inside the country. Led by a Syrian known as Abu Muhammad al-Jawlani, the group began to recruit fighters and establish cells throughout the country.[284][285] On 23 January 2012, the group announced its formation as Jabhat al-Nusra li Ahl as-Sham—Jabhat al-Nusra—more commonly known as al-Nusra Front. Al-Nusra grew rapidly into a capable fighting force with popular support among Syrian opposition.[284]

In April 2013, al-Baghdadi released an audio statement in which he announced that al-Nusra Front had been established, financed and supported by the Islamic State of Iraq[286] and that the two groups were merging under the name "Islamic State of Iraq and Al-Sham".[91] Al-Jawlani issued a statement denying the merger and complaining that neither he nor anyone else in al-Nusra's leadership had been consulted about it.[287] In June 2013, Al Jazeera reported that it had obtained a letter written by al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri, addressed to both leaders, in which he ruled against the merger, and appointed an emissary to oversee relations between them to put an end to tensions.[288] In the same month, al-Baghdadi released an audio message rejecting al-Zawahiri's ruling and declaring that the merger was going ahead.[289] In October 2013, al-Zawahiri ordered the disbanding of ISIS, putting al-Nusra Front in charge of jihadist efforts in Syria,[290] but al-Baghdadi contested al-Zawahiri's ruling on the basis of Islamic jurisprudence,[289] and the group continued to operate in Syria. In February 2014, after an eight-month power struggle, al-Qaeda disavowed any relations with ISIS.[81]

According to journalist Sarah Birke, there are "significant differences" between al-Nusra Front and ISIS. While al-Nusra actively calls for the overthrow of the Assad government, ISIS "tends to be more focused on establishing its own rule on conquered territory". ISIS is "far more ruthless" in building an Islamic state, "carrying out sectarian attacks and imposing sharia law immediately". While al-Nusra has a "large contingent of foreign fighters", it is seen as a home-grown group by many Syrians; by contrast, ISIS fighters have been described as "foreign 'occupiers'" by many Syrian refugees.[291] It has a strong presence in central and northern Syria, where it has instituted sharia in a number of towns.[291] The group reportedly controlled the four border towns of Atmeh, al-Bab, Azaz and Jarablus, allowing it to control the entrance and exit from Syria into Turkey.[291] Foreign fighters in Syria include Russian-speaking jihadists who were part of Jaish al-Muhajireen wal-Ansar (JMA).[292] In November 2013, the JMA's ethnic Chechen leader Abu Omar al-Shishani swore an oath of allegiance to al-Baghdadi;[293] the group then split between those who followed al-Shishani in joining ISIS and those who continued to operate independently in the JMA under a new leadership.[14]

In May 2014, al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri ordered al-Nusra Front to stop attacks on its rival ISIS.[31] In June 2014, after continued fighting between the two groups, al-Nusra's branch in the Syrian town of al-Bukamal pledged allegiance to ISIS.

They took up with the opposition to Assad. While it may be debatable as to whether they opposed Assad, or they were more concerned with gaining and holding territory they took in their opposition to Assad, the facts are that they were, and are, opposed to Assad.