RE: Does grammar matter to you?

RE: Does grammar matter to you? (Full Version)

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MariaB -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/26/2014 6:27:26 AM)
The problem (especially within the medical field) with cursive writing is, it may mean several people standing around a nursing station trying to decipher what the notes say. If someone who is not familiar with the way you write and can’t read your notes on a first attempt, then cursive writing can be a problem. It has its place but that place is getting smaller. One of my hobbies is calligraphy but even when I’m not using the tools I tend to write very flamboyantly. With text, type and print, I rarely use cursive writing within a workplace environment. I do use it in my journals but I doubt any grandchildren of the future will be able to despiser what they say!

inkedone -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/26/2014 6:39:48 AM)
quote: My thing is, seriously millennials are looked down upon by baby boomers all the time, for a lot of things. Cursive is the stupidest one of those things. Not knowing cursive isn't going to doom my generation. It is not a travesty. No one is going to have a summit to discuss what will happen if we lose cursive. This is the quote I was referring to, but I do not want to argue on a discussion rather had seen this a debate of friendly banter. There are always two sides of a discussion, that does not mean offensive is taken, rather an open discussion to introduce new ideas and just maybe through this affair we will all learn something from each other in the process. The idea keeping it as an open form and a welcomed space for All to learn from each others ideas. Debate or discussion has equal and opposite sides, and our ideas are formed with perception which may differ greatly. This is why I tend not to post on any discussion board as my views on subjects tend to out of the box as compared to most. From personal experience, I have had to teach my sons to write in cursive also as a edge to fill out college forms, job applications, and in general get a leg up on the competition in the flooded job market. The goal was to give them the necessary skills to land the acceptance letter or interview. Many an hour was spent at the kitchen table practicing such skills as to accomplish the intended goal. While this may not seem as added value, it was a skill that helped them get where they wanted to go. Landed the interview was the hard part, but then the rest of the skills they have learned helped them meet the intended goal.

shiftyw -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/26/2014 6:39:49 AM)
Maria, That is a problem within the restaurant industry as well...however- less so with the advent of point of sales systems and computers. I have never ever filled out a job application in cursive. I've gotten huge jobs. I worked for one of our national governing bodies of a specific sport. I worked at my university within an office. I have been a receptionist within a tax office year after year. Clearly, either my personality or creative natural penmanship did it for me...I must be another exception...

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/26/2014 6:44:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB Sounds more like you have a little bee in your bonnet about me that goes way back. Get over it. Absolutely not. Sometimes I agree with you, other times I don't. Be that as it may, you do seem to have a trait in nit-picking the exceptions and flouting them as 'the norm' when challenged. quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 But I would contest that there is no correlation between the two. Oh well, science says otherwise but you know better! Citation please?? Because I have applied some basic logic into my argument that makes sense to me. Dismissing it out of hand doesn't discredit it unless you can provide evidence of such. Some answers that give credence to my logic - http://www.quora.com/In-modern-communication-is-there-a-correlation-between-correct-English-usage-such-as-spelling-grammar-and-punctuation-and-intelligence http://www.forbes.com/sites/cherylsnappconner/2013/03/11/report-how-grammar-influences-your-income/ And a real study of said subject on foreign students - http://www.pulib.sk/elpub2/FF/Kacmarova2/pdf_doc/eddy.pdf (see page 68) And it concludes with: "The research conducted showed that, in the respondents participating, there was a significant interconnection between their performance in English grammar and the level of the cognitive processes tested" ... "...the correlations found were significant and they suggest that there is a relationship present between the acquisition of the examined grammatical areas and the involvement of the cognitive processes in question" Can you back up your claim??

ExiledTyrant -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/26/2014 6:52:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 >snip< argument >snip< There, I fixed it for clarity and brevity.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/26/2014 7:02:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 >snip< argument >snip< There, I fixed it for clarity and brevity. Luvit ET!! [:D]

UnholyBear -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/26/2014 7:03:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 >snip< argument >snip< There, I fixed it for clarity and brevity. Yea it's fairly apparent this is turning into a useless argument and this Bear is getting the hell off this thread. I ain't gonna get me anywhere yanno?

shiftyw -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/26/2014 7:04:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: inkedone quote: My thing is, seriously millennials are looked down upon by baby boomers all the time, for a lot of things. Cursive is the stupidest one of those things. Not knowing cursive isn't going to doom my generation. It is not a travesty. No one is going to have a summit to discuss what will happen if we lose cursive. This is the quote I was referring to, but I do not want to argue on a discussion rather had seen this a debate of friendly banter. There are always two sides of a discussion, that does not mean offensive is taken, rather an open discussion to introduce new ideas and just maybe through this affair we will all learn something from each other in the process. The idea keeping it as an open form and a welcomed space for All to learn from each others ideas. Debate or discussion has equal and opposite sides, and our ideas are formed with perception which may differ greatly. This is why I tend not to post on any discussion board as my views on subjects tend to out of the box as compared to most. From personal experience, I have had to teach my sons to write in cursive also as a edge to fill out college forms, job applications, and in general get a leg up on the competition in the flooded job market. The goal was to give them the necessary skills to land the acceptance letter or interview. Many an hour was spent at the kitchen table practicing such skills as to accomplish the intended goal. While this may not seem as added value, it was a skill that helped them get where they wanted to go. Landed the interview was the hard part, but then the rest of the skills they have learned helped them meet the intended goal. And I'd argue teaching them excel, money handling skills, interview skills, word processing skills, how to use an email client, or html or website building, drafting, editing skills would be tremendously more important. I can't tell you if I got any jobs because of cursive, but I can tell you I got jobs because of my words per minute, cash handling skills and for sure my excel skill set. Teach him how to type a resume or job application that presents that and how to present that upon interview and he will land that job.

Kaliko -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/26/2014 7:10:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: shiftyw I have not written in cursive since grade school. I know many companies that refuse to employ people who cannot fill in a job application in cursive. Non-cursive and un-capitalized entries get shredded before the applicant has even left the building. Interesting. I've never - ever - been asked to submit an application with any cursive. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, of course, but I'm surprised - that's the first I've ever heard of it. And more companies now (including the one I work for) accept applications only online. Paper applications, with or without cursive, are the ones that are turned away. (Not that I think that's necessarily the way to go.) quote: ORIGINAL: shiftyw Penmanship, cursive, and grammar are all different things. And the first two have little to do with the last. Grammar IS still rightfully taught in school and I never said anything about a generational gap there. Writing and learning how to write isn't a waste of time. Learning useless cursive IS. I agree. First of all, cursive is still taught in schools - at least some schools. Though it is on its way out. But secondly, so what if it is? If you want your child to learn cursive, then teach your child cursive. Schools aren't meant to raise your children for you. If you think your child would fare better in life by learning the art of cursive writing, then by all means, stop complaining on Facebook about how shitty today's education is and pursue cursive for your child. Personally, I think cursive should still be offered in schools, in much the same way calligraphy is offered. It's an art. I think cursive writing, when done nicely, is beautiful. But required? Definitely not. There is also the argument that learning cursive writing at a young age helps develop some fine motor skills. That may be so. But surely, kids were developing fine motor skills long before cursive came around and surely, they can be developed in ways other than through cursive. But I'll say it again: if you feel your child needs cursive in order to help develop her fine motor skills, then by all means, teach her. (Directed in general - I know no one in this thread was making this particular argument as a parent.) ETA: Nod to inkedone for teaching your sons cursive when you felt you needed to. I saw that after I wrote my post - I would have mentioned you if I had.

MariaB -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/26/2014 7:12:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shiftyw Maria, That is a problem within the restaurant industry as well...however- less so with the advent of point of sales systems and computers. I have never ever filled out a job application in cursive. I've gotten huge jobs. I worked for one of our national governing bodies of a specific sport. I worked at my university within an office. I have been a receptionist within a tax office year after year. Clearly, either my personality or creative natural penmanship did it for me...I must be another exception... I don't know about you shifty but dyslexia and the lack of a diagnosis for the greater part of my school years, was not only a frustrating curse but something that gave me a huge amount of self doubt. I constantly worried about my intelligence and my future ability to get a half decent career. People who are not dyslexic and do not have trouble with grammar, spelling or the written word likely can't comprehend what its like to live in the shoes of someone who has difficulty doing what they do with ease. I wasn't reassured as a youngster, in fact I was continually told I was stupid, thick or lazy. Much as I would love to shake that off, I have to accept, even with my test paper that clearly states I'm dyslexic and have a reasonably high IQ, people will still judge my intelligence on my grammar. It will always hurt, it will always trigger an emotion in me that I'd rather not have and it will always leave me questioning my own intelligence. Like you, I have had some good jobs in both the medical sector and running successful businesses but unfortunately I still doubt my own intelligence on a regular basis. To everyone else. I'm sorry if this thread has got serious. For me it was serious from the moment I read the title and even though my head kept saying, "don't open the topic" my curiosity had to see what others had to say about people like me.

inkedone -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/26/2014 7:13:51 AM)
quote: quote: ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 >snip< argument >snip< There, I fixed it for clarity and brevity. Yea it's fairly apparent this is turning into a useless argument and this Bear is getting the hell off this thread. I ain't gonna get me anywhere yanno? _____________________________ Off with this thread as well, " it is killing me smalls" .

littleladybug -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/26/2014 7:16:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UnholyBear I ain't gonna get me anywhere yanno? As an old guy, who had to walk to school 3 miles in the snow, uphill both ways, you're probably not getting anywhere fast at this point anyway. [;)] I'm still wondering how this Gen X'er fits into the mix. I may just take my Commodore 64 and join you in fading into the sunset. [:D]

DaddySatyr -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/26/2014 7:21:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: inkedone "it is killing me smalls" . Excellent Sandlot reference! I use it, myself, frequently. Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) *still* RULE! Ya feel me?

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/26/2014 7:38:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shiftyw And I'd argue teaching them excel, money handling skills, interview skills, word processing skills, how to use an email client, or html or website building, drafting, editing skills would be tremendously more important. I can't tell you if I got any jobs because of cursive, but I can tell you I got jobs because of my words per minute, cash handling skills and for sure my excel skill set. Teach him how to type a resume or job application that presents that and how to present that upon interview and he will land that job. Those are skills which would be specific to a particular type of job. Cursive and grammar skills are universal and can land you a job without those other skills. Money handling I learned at school and from my parents. Same with interview skills. As for using any type of software, be that word processing, drafting or editing skills etc comes with perseverance and practice. But more importantly, being able to read the manual and help files when necessary - which requires a knowledge of grammar and a half-decent knowledge of the language. I have used HTML and built my own website (many years ago now) but I wouldn't consider that an essential skill unless you are pursuing a career in that domain. Strangely, I have never found a use for Excel and still can't find a sensible use for it. What I can say is that a decent CV (Resume) and a properly filled-in job application (in cursive) has gotten me into jobs where I have had no other skills to offer the employer. What's more, I have gotten those jobs in preference to some of the other applicants I have known personally and who were more qualified than I to fill the position. I was cheeky at one induction and asked why I was the one that got the job and the answer was simple: I filled in the application form correctly, neatly, and accurately. The CV didn't actually count for much other than to show I had been educated beyond basic schooling; my cursive writing style, my grammar and my spelling got me the job - as a programmer where English and grammar count for nowt!! Both my kids have done a full 3-year course in IT and I still know more than they do because the schools only teach just enough to get a pass mark in the exam. And what's more, when I questioned the teachers at the PTA meetings at the end of each term, they know less than I do too.... and they are teaching the kids??? Eeeek!! I agree that cursive is probably of less importance these days because of the technical revolution where everything is typed and printed; but it is still extremely relevant. ETA: I wholly applaud Maria for persevering with what is obviously a tormenting problem. My son is dyslexic or maybe dyspraxic, so I know the sort of hell he went through at school. I know he is intelligent and had to be the supportive parent all through his schooling. I know it's a nightmare. Kudos to you.

shiftyw -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/26/2014 7:39:47 AM)
Maria, I was also undiagnosed. I have grown out of most of it. For a long time the letter E which is in my real name and the number 3 totally bamboozled me. I was writing backwards or switching them. "Off" was spelled "Ffo" a lot. Left and right took me so long to learn because despite showing me over and over that my left hand made an L- I would switch it bexcuse I couldn't see the L. Math was and continues to be a nightmare for me. I remember doing these timed multiplication tables and crying because I just could answer them that fast. I still "mis-tense" things, which I'm sure people see in here (I'll put pretend instead of pretending) cause I just don't see the mistake until pointed out. I also still have a hard time with certain things "Asiago" is a word that plagues me. I read it and occasionally write it as Asagio. I constantly need like full minutes before I write it out (being in the restaurant industry that is more than you know). Broccoli is somthing I routinely spell wrong. Names of towns in NJ were really brutal cause a lot have similar names and you have to read them quickly on the highway. Cursive really sucked because in third grade I was still making some letters backwards.

YouName -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/26/2014 7:44:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB quote: ORIGINAL: shiftyw Maria, That is a problem within the restaurant industry as well...however- less so with the advent of point of sales systems and computers. I have never ever filled out a job application in cursive. I've gotten huge jobs. I worked for one of our national governing bodies of a specific sport. I worked at my university within an office. I have been a receptionist within a tax office year after year. Clearly, either my personality or creative natural penmanship did it for me...I must be another exception... I don't know about you shifty but dyslexia and the lack of a diagnosis for the greater part of my school years, was not only a frustrating curse but something that gave me a huge amount of self doubt. I constantly worried about my intelligence and my future ability to get a half decent career. People who are not dyslexic and do not have trouble with grammar, spelling or the written word likely can't comprehend what its like to live in the shoes of someone who has difficulty doing what they do with ease. I wasn't reassured as a youngster, in fact I was continually told I was stupid, thick or lazy. Much as I would love to shake that off, I have to accept, even with my test paper that clearly states I'm dyslexic and have a reasonably high IQ, people will still judge my intelligence on my grammar. It will always hurt, it will always trigger an emotion in me that I'd rather not have and it will always leave me questioning my own intelligence. Like you, I have had some good jobs in both the medical sector and running successful businesses but unfortunately I still doubt my own intelligence on a regular basis. To everyone else. I'm sorry if this thread has got serious. For me it was serious from the moment I read the title and even though my head kept saying, "don't open the topic" my curiosity had to see what others had to say about people like me. Screw those dudes who would question your capabilities based on superficialities of different sorts. You say you've done well for yourself. It's time to stop doubting yourself. Even those who haven't should look forward and taken brazen steps, doing the best they can instead of worrying about the possible barriers they might face. It's not as easilly done as said but you've already overstepped many of them so just forget about them, or at least put them in a jar and pickle them :) Ensligh is not a phonetic language and this is why dyslexia is seemingly a bigger problem in anglian countries than slavic or even latin ones. Though this may contradict some modern theories on dyslexia but it's at least estimated by most that a portion of dyslectics can have an easier time learning more phonetic languages. Also I've heard it could be easier in comparison to learn symbols based ones on the very basic level. Although remembering too many symbols can be a hassle. Try chinese : )

RedMagic1 -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/26/2014 5:19:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pleasesir88 This boils down to personal preference. For me, the attempt at good grammar is important. After all, you wouldn't show up at a first date looking like a slob. I care about content. My lady friend mixes "your" and "you're" on a regular basis, and most people would consider her ridiculously intelligent. There's the famous saying, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Structure should conform to the needs of content delivery, not the other way around.

JeffBC -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/26/2014 10:09:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 I care about content. My lady friend mixes "your" and "you're" on a regular basis, and most people would consider her ridiculously intelligent. When you get down to it, I'm more impressed by substance than packaging. The idea that you can reasonably talk about someone's intelligence based upon their demonstrated writing skills on a BDSM discussion board would be pretty amusing to people who were actually "ridiculously intelligent". Usually when I talk about IQ with people we end up discussing things like "facility traversing abstraction layers" more than by-rote skills.

epiphiny43 -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/26/2014 10:55:21 PM)
The problem for those with structural neural issues affecting text and spoken communication, as well as the improperly educated or those who just won't make an effort, was most succinctly stated long ago: "If you can't say what you mean, you can't mean what you say." Actual communication is when intent and reception/understanding are identical. The military long ago recognized this with message protocols where the complete cycle requires the receiver to repeat the message clearly back to the sender. In our communication, it can take considerable effort to clearly identify what the Intent is even with 'correct' spelling, grammar or pronunciation. With less, and the often emotional response to an incorrect interpretation, not only misunderstanding occurs, but relations may be damaged or broken. I see no real fix, it's part of the human condition? Other than each actually trying to hear/read themself and at least with print, proof reading before hitting 'send' or 'OK'?

NookieNotes -> RE: Does grammar matter to you? (11/27/2014 3:42:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: epiphiny43 "If you can't say what you mean, you can't mean what you say." Reminds me of Sapir-Whorf. That said, spoken language and writing are two separate skills. My Pet is an architect. Above-average intelligence and intuition/creativity that is off the charts. He often mixes up homophones, skips a word, and misspells. Often = a few times a day, not a few times per text. I have no problems communicating with him, despite this for several reasons. 1. He is close enough for me to understand 99.9% of the time. 2. I can ask what he means. 3. I know him in person, and give him more credit than I might if it were online-only (I know this about me). quote: ORIGINAL: epiphiny43 Actual communication is when intent and reception/understanding are identical. The military long ago recognized this with message protocols where the complete cycle requires the receiver to repeat the message clearly back to the sender. To me, rote repetition is not understanding. I read at some point in my past a thought that has stuck with me and made a HUGE difference as a dominant (who is responsible for the communication in my relationships): *Communication is not about the words you say, but about the results you get.* If I am not getting the results I want from speaking, I have obviously not communicated, in one (or more) ways: 1. What I want. 2. Why I want it. 3. How it is to be done. 4. When I need it. 5. Priority level. 6. The benefits or consequences of said action.

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