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Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 12:14:22 PM   
kdsub


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There has been much said about the unrest in Ferguson Missouri not happening in a vacuum. This insinuates that even if the incidents that set off the violence and protests were lawful there are other valid reasons African Americans are protesting.

Will this goes both ways… there are also happenings that are not in a vacuum that have molded non-blacks response and attitudes to the protests in the St. Louis area.

These attitudes may be particular to our immediate area and have good reason behind them. St. Louis is often given the moniker as one of the most racists cities in America… Well here is why:

Let me give you a few examples… the vast majority of crime is committed by blacks in St. Louis and St. Louis county.

Just yesterday three black men enter a bar in St. Louis… they shoot in the air then grab a white woman…put a gun to her head and blow her brains out. The idea is to scare the rest of the patrons into submission. It was a mistake as a retired policeman had a gun and shot two of the men… they managed to also shoot four other people before he shot one in the eye and the other in the butt… the third got away. Two days before this a white man was beaten to death by black men with hammers demanding money. This death was protested by whites in a demonstration in the streets… bet you never heard of that demonstration.The week before a white woman walked along the street in St. Louis when a group of black female teens beat her up because she would not give them money. The week before that a group of black teens demanded money from a white man who refused and was beaten to within an inch of his life. A few months before a white girl setting in her car at an intersection in St. Louis was murdered by a black man because she would not give him her cell phone… she was talking to her mother at the time. Or the grandmother walking her two grandchildren home from school and was shot in the head by drive by blacks in a gang war… Lets not forget the 12 and 8 year old boys shot or the man killed in his bed asleep… all in the last few weeks. Don’t forget the knockout game originated in St. Louis… It started with a 70 year old white man beaten to death for fun… you know the game where blacks see who can hit a white man with one sucker punch and knock him or her out.

I could go on and on and on and on and on and on and on listing the violent crime committed by blacks… and my God the crime they commit against each other is even worse… just check out the number of blacks killing blacks in St Louis… we are talking hundreds of murders in a year. In my little sub of St Louis in the last 5 years two police officers have been murdered by blacks… our Mayor…our public works director and two councilmen have been murdered by blacks.

So forgive the whites, and me, who have little sympathy for a petty criminal getting shot for attacking a police officer or the punk that took three shots at a police officer who then shot back and killed the bastard.

It is tough to be honest and I do find myself in conflict with what I know is the right way to think and what feelings burn deep in my stomach. Just as we in my area are supposed to overlook these isolated, although not real isolated, incidents and not think of all blacks as criminals so should blacks not think all cops are killers... yes there are reasons we feel the way we do... even if wrong.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/4/2014 12:55:10 PM >


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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 2:08:35 PM   
BitYakin


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heheh

nobody wants to touch this one...

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 3:25:31 PM   
DaNewAgeViking


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There used to be a racist group called the Citizens Council in St Louis back in the 60s and 70s. They published a regular newspaper filled with such accounts of black-on-white violent crime. They were also the group which fomented the Dr King assassination. Your post is a trip down memory lane - or rather, sewer.

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 3:27:00 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

heheh

nobody wants to touch this one...

Or they're coming up with ways to show that white on black racism is the root cause beneath all this...even the black on black crimes.

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 3:29:33 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking

There used to be a racist group called the Citizens Council in St Louis back in the 60s and 70s. They published a regular newspaper filled with such accounts of black-on-white violent crime. They were also the group which fomented the Dr King assassination. Your post is a trip down memory lane - or rather, sewer.

Sort of like what the media all across the country does now concerning white on black crime?

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 3:34:02 PM   
DomKen


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No. All the problems in Str. Louis are definitely due to black on white crime

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 3:58:19 PM   
kdsub


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I don't know you enough to say you are a dumb shit so I will just say something nice like fuck you.


< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/4/2014 4:09:35 PM >


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 4:00:28 PM   
kdsub


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What I am saying is there is a real problem with black crime period in St. Louis... and It does shape the way people look at this situation. The crime is vicious and frequent and it should not be ignored.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 4:07:15 PM   
kdsub


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DomKen I did not say that... you should know me better than that... but what is happening does mean something in reality... it is in the minds of white AND blacks in St. Louis... I am not making up stories... just check out the Post Dispatch... these things are happening and people are afraid.. the downtown area is dying... We now have to have metal detectors everywhere... The Mayor of St Louis just asked for 160 new police officers because the crime is beyond the departments ability to control... And no matter if you or I like it or not the majority is black crime

Should we all just ignore what is happening because to tell the truth sounds racist... will that is not me... I decided long ago to be truthful online.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/4/2014 4:09:16 PM >


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 4:24:01 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

No. All the problems in Str. Louis are definitely due to black on white crime

Any time you care to cite where I said that they are, please do so.

Viking brought up something about the media. I just replied in kind.

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 4:53:06 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

DomKen I did not say that... you should know me better than that... but what is happening does mean something in reality... it is in the minds of white AND blacks in St. Louis... I am not making up stories... just check out the Post Dispatch... these things are happening and people are afraid.. the downtown area is dying... We now have to have metal detectors everywhere... The Mayor of St Louis just asked for 160 new police officers because the crime is beyond the departments ability to control... And no matter if you or I like it or not the majority is black crime

Should we all just ignore what is happening because to tell the truth sounds racist... will that is not me... I decided long ago to be truthful online.

Butch

The truth is that most violent crime is committed by poor people so if most poor people in St. Louis are black then of course that will be who commits  most of the violent crime. Having police forces act like occupying forces and legislative bodies passing punitive laws for minor offences will only make matters worse.

What needs to happen is integration of neighborhoods and reforms to the governments in the area.

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 5:25:12 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

DomKen I did not say that... you should know me better than that... but what is happening does mean something in reality... it is in the minds of white AND blacks in St. Louis... I am not making up stories... just check out the Post Dispatch... these things are happening and people are afraid.. the downtown area is dying... We now have to have metal detectors everywhere... The Mayor of St Louis just asked for 160 new police officers because the crime is beyond the departments ability to control... And no matter if you or I like it or not the majority is black crime

Should we all just ignore what is happening because to tell the truth sounds racist... will that is not me... I decided long ago to be truthful online.

Butch

The truth is that most violent crime is committed by poor people so if most poor people in St. Louis are black then of course that will be who commits  most of the violent crime. Having police forces act like occupying forces and legislative bodies passing punitive laws for minor offences will only make matters worse.

What needs to happen is integration of neighborhoods and reforms to the governments in the area.

yep government reform will miraculously change the morals of the people

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 5:47:30 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

DomKen I did not say that... you should know me better than that... but what is happening does mean something in reality... it is in the minds of white AND blacks in St. Louis... I am not making up stories... just check out the Post Dispatch... these things are happening and people are afraid.. the downtown area is dying... We now have to have metal detectors everywhere... The Mayor of St Louis just asked for 160 new police officers because the crime is beyond the departments ability to control... And no matter if you or I like it or not the majority is black crime

Should we all just ignore what is happening because to tell the truth sounds racist... will that is not me... I decided long ago to be truthful online.

Butch

The truth is that most violent crime is committed by poor people so if most poor people in St. Louis are black then of course that will be who commits  most of the violent crime. Having police forces act like occupying forces and legislative bodies passing punitive laws for minor offences will only make matters worse.

What needs to happen is integration of neighborhoods and reforms to the governments in the area.

yep government reform will miraculously change the morals of the people


Umm. . . how about less stupid shit being illegal?

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 6:35:48 PM   
DaNewAgeViking


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It's worth noting that someone once described the high level of ghetto crime as a 'slow motion riot'. He may have had a point there.

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 7:11:17 PM   
kdsub


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DomKen I am sorry poor is no excuse for violent crime...but I do agree it does no good for police to over-react... but remember St. Louis proper does have a good mix of white and minority officers... It is not just the white police that are getting flak from African Americans... it is all police black as well...and sometimes even worse.

When it comes to integration it is a choice.. there are many mixed areas of St Louis proper and in the county there is no area strictly African American by force or economics. My City of Kirkwood has a large African American presence. Some concentrated in an area called Meacham Park by choice to be around people they know and families... but many others all over the town. African Americans are and have been represented in our government for years... but the blacks in Kirkwood vote. That is all that is required to be represented in governments. By the way... there is no ghetto in Ferguson.. it is a solid middle class community... Get on line and check out the quality of the apartments where the boy was shot... you may be surprised. That is a problem with the media...they make things look different than they really are and do not represent the truth.

I think all it will take to reduce crime is for the African American community to cooperate with police to solve crime in their area. I will not make excuses for police actions but I am telling you they are shell shocked from constant crime in the county. When you have to deal with crime every day as they do you become callus and lose connection with the people you are trying to protect who do not help you or respect you.

So what does all this come down to?...Things are a mess and the point i have been trying to make over and over in all the threads and all my posts is that the blame is NOT just with the police and white community. African Americans are just as much at fault as any group and they need to recognize this and act on it and stop blaming everyone else. This attitude that they have no blame is what pisses people off about the protests.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/4/2014 7:28:28 PM >


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 7:28:03 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

DomKen I did not say that... you should know me better than that... but what is happening does mean something in reality... it is in the minds of white AND blacks in St. Louis... I am not making up stories... just check out the Post Dispatch... these things are happening and people are afraid.. the downtown area is dying... We now have to have metal detectors everywhere... The Mayor of St Louis just asked for 160 new police officers because the crime is beyond the departments ability to control... And no matter if you or I like it or not the majority is black crime

Should we all just ignore what is happening because to tell the truth sounds racist... will that is not me... I decided long ago to be truthful online.

Butch

The truth is that most violent crime is committed by poor people so if most poor people in St. Louis are black then of course that will be who commits  most of the violent crime. Having police forces act like occupying forces and legislative bodies passing punitive laws for minor offences will only make matters worse.

What needs to happen is integration of neighborhoods and reforms to the governments in the area.

yep government reform will miraculously change the morals of the people


Umm. . . how about less stupid shit being illegal?


I am all for that, the Gardner case would have been avoided completely had that advice been followed.
Somehow I doubt that that is the kind of reform DK has in mind.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 12/4/2014 7:30:54 PM >


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 7:43:35 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

heheh

nobody wants to touch this one...


I didn't want to touch this one either... Some people I like and respect have called me racists for the way I have posted on the rioting and protesting in this area. I cannot convince them I'm not and i am hoping myself I'm not but I know what i am saying is shared by many in my community and is the truth.

Telling things as they are is not what some people want to hear. I am being honest and if more people around here were, especially the political leaders, we could have real progress rather than the divisive actions on both sides of the issue we are seeing.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 8:01:54 PM   
Aylee


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Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

DomKen I did not say that... you should know me better than that... but what is happening does mean something in reality... it is in the minds of white AND blacks in St. Louis... I am not making up stories... just check out the Post Dispatch... these things are happening and people are afraid.. the downtown area is dying... We now have to have metal detectors everywhere... The Mayor of St Louis just asked for 160 new police officers because the crime is beyond the departments ability to control... And no matter if you or I like it or not the majority is black crime

Should we all just ignore what is happening because to tell the truth sounds racist... will that is not me... I decided long ago to be truthful online.

Butch

The truth is that most violent crime is committed by poor people so if most poor people in St. Louis are black then of course that will be who commits  most of the violent crime. Having police forces act like occupying forces and legislative bodies passing punitive laws for minor offences will only make matters worse.

What needs to happen is integration of neighborhoods and reforms to the governments in the area.

yep government reform will miraculously change the morals of the people


Umm. . . how about less stupid shit being illegal?


I am all for that, the Gardner case would have been avoided completely had that advice been followed.
Somehow I doubt that that is the kind of reform DK has in mind.


Well, a crap load of cases would be avoided as well as cutting down on "prosecutorial discretion" and the ability to indict a "ham sandwich."

How much of the ill feelings directed towards the police would be ended if we did not have so many stupid things that were illegal? Is there a good reason to have to have a license to cut hair or put nail polish on someone for money? We have so much crap that is a crime that we do not actually know WHAT is a crime anymore.

I think that I mentioned on another thread, when you pass a law, however trivial, you are providing an opportunity for police to use lethal force.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 8:23:03 PM   
dcnovice


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FR

This thread brings to mind a point made in the latest New Yorker:

Giuliani’s argument [that the real problem is black-on-black crime] is a curious, if durable, one that would seem to suggest that the members of a community should themselves be responsible for correcting the behavior of other members of their demographic. (Nobody asks the same of the white population.)

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/12/08/crimes-commissions

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 8:41:58 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
DomKen I did not say that... you should know me better than that... but what is happening does mean something in reality... it is in the minds of white AND blacks in St. Louis... I am not making up stories... just check out the Post Dispatch... these things are happening and people are afraid.. the downtown area is dying... We now have to have metal detectors everywhere... The Mayor of St Louis just asked for 160 new police officers because the crime is beyond the departments ability to control... And no matter if you or I like it or not the majority is black crime
Should we all just ignore what is happening because to tell the truth sounds racist... will that is not me... I decided long ago to be truthful online.
Butch

The truth is that most violent crime is committed by poor people so if most poor people in St. Louis are black then of course that will be who commits  most of the violent crime. Having police forces act like occupying forces and legislative bodies passing punitive laws for minor offences will only make matters worse.
What needs to happen is integration of neighborhoods and reforms to the governments in the area.


Integration of neighborhoods? How are you going to effect that? Are you going to dictate where people live now? If so, are you going to subsidize the cost of housing for those who can't afford their new neighborhood they just got moved to? How is it that a person can't decide where he/she wants to live?


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What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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