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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/9/2014 7:09:40 PM

GoddessManko

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Thanks kdsub for continuing the discussion. According to this map, there is an issue with "Income inequality" in St. Louis specifically. "Income inequality" means "wage disparity based on race or gender. Do you think it's mere coincidence that this too is the only part of Missouri with a crime problem? Or possibly a contributing factor? Thanks. Map of income inequality in Missouri, Color Coded.

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Post #: 101

RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/9/2014 7:17:33 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

Should I post the links again about the Bosnian neighborhood...

No thanks. I was thinking of something more systemic than a single neighborhood.

quote:

I just do not think poor is an excuse for murder.

Nobody does, so you can put that strawman to bed.

The question is whether race or class (or perhaps some combination) is the driving factor for crime. It seems, well, oddly important to you to pin this entirely on race.

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No matter how cynical you become,
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Post #: 102

RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/9/2014 7:25:53 PM

kdsub

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HERE is another map...easy to read and even tells you which neighborhoods are majority black or white.

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Post #: 103

RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/9/2014 7:38:14 PM

GoddessManko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

HERE is another map...easy to read and even tells you which neighborhoods are majority black or white.

OK, so those areas are the same ones with income disparity is your point?

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Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

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The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

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Post #: 104

RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/9/2014 7:44:04 PM

kdsub

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You have that wrong dc...all I am doing is stating facts... please tell me how i am trying to pin crime on race... I am just telling you...and proving to you that in St. Louis blacks are committing the the vast majority of murders, robberies and assaults.

Here is what I know for a fact... the areas of black majorities are the highest in crime...and especially violent crime... committed by other blacks not police. 90 percent of ALL murders in st Louis are committed by blacks...

African American areas are comparably poorer than many but not all white areas in the city but higher than many out state counties that are majority white.

Please tell me how stating these undeniable facts can mean I am trying to pin anything on blacks... Sometimes people just have to face up to facts so they can come up with solutions... sticking ones head in the sand will solve nothing.

I am tried of people making excuses for murder then trying to say police are the problem.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/9/2014 7:45:52 PM >

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Post #: 105

RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/9/2014 7:57:24 PM

GoddessManko

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So you pretty much dismissed my map entirely because it didn't fit into your weird scope of things that is not popular nor mainstream. Yep, you're not close minded at all, LMAO!

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The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

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Post #: 106

RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/9/2014 8:12:16 PM

kdsub

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Do you not read... I already said exactly what your map points out...except you did not check out state counties for comparison.... Now I ask you in your opinion... is being poor a reason or an excuse to murder? Is it an excuse to accuse the police of murder when 50 to 1 you kill your own? Is it not a problem if state wide 11 percent of the people commit 58 percent of the murders...and 86 percent of those murders their own race? Yet the very same people that deny these facts riot...burn...and loot over falsehoods. In the city of St. Louis... 49 percent of the population commit 90 percent of the murders...can you tell me that you believe being poor is an excuse for this mayhem? Will i will guarantee you many blacks will not agree with you...especially those that have lost love ones.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/9/2014 8:14:26 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to GoddessManko)

Post #: 107

RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/9/2014 8:18:48 PM

GoddessManko

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OK, but 90% of white people are killed by other white people as well. And I do not know why there is so much murder here, I think Michael Moore did a movie about it, correct? The school shootings and such? Why do you think there are school shootings, pray tell?

_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 108

RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/9/2014 8:41:47 PM

kdsub

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83 percent state wide actually... get your figures right... now lets break this down since you are having problems...If blacks...49 percent of the population are committing 90 percent of the murders in St Louis... that means all other races other than black... 51 percent... are committing 10 percent of the murders... hmmmm

Now of the 90 percent of the murders blacks commit 90 percent of the victims were black and the other 10 percent other than black... and of the other than blacks 10 percent of murders we do not have the victims race... but assume it was 83 percent.

What does the above show... 1.) there is a problem of black crime in St. Louis...2.) Black children are 50 times more likely to be killed by another black than a police officer... and if they are killed by a police officer they are more likely to be killed by a black police officer.

Lets take the 10 year average murder rate per year in St Louis... 136... This means blacks, half the population committed 122 murders and non whites of all other races, the other half killed 14

What the hell can you not understand about these FACTS.

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/9/2014 8:45:26 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to GoddessManko)

Post #: 109

RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/9/2014 8:46:34 PM

GoddessManko

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OK, that's fine, my point still stands with a 7% differential. Why do school shootings happen? Should a murderer be prosecuted regardless of station? These are the fundamental questions right? I mean we can say in St Louis blacks commit 90% of murder but in a trailer park in Mississippi those numbers might change, am I correct in my assessment?

_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 110

RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/9/2014 8:54:46 PM

kdsub

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I wish I knew why... but I do know where the problem lies... with the people doing the murders... GoddessManko all along the point i have been trying to make is the protesters in Ferguson need to understand why many people in the St Louis area have little sympathy for the protesters. They have much sympathy for the victims and for Michael Browns Parents however. I don't understand your point in what race most often kills what race...blacks are killing on average 122 people every year and non whites only 14. The only reason i brought up the 90 percent was to show it is fellow blacks more likely to kill fellow blacks than white police officers.

There is much to protest in St Louis... but they are protesting the wrong things...I feel and many I know feel they are ignoring their part in our problems and trying to blame it all on the police and racism.. that is dead wrong.

I knew from the start when I was pointing out the crime in St Louis that I would be accused of being racists... but damn it it is the truth. The only way our problems here in the St Louis are will ever be solved is if all of us recognize are part in the problem.

And I apologize for my can't you read comment... I did not notice your link so i guess i was guilty of what i accused you of... not reading post closely.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/9/2014 9:28:31 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to GoddessManko)

Post #: 111

RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/9/2014 9:14:38 PM

GoddessManko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I wish I knew why... but I do know where the problem lies... with the people doing the murders... GoddessManko all along the point i have been trying to make is the protesters in Ferguson need to understand why many people in the St Louis area have little sympathy for the protesters. They have much sympathy for the victims and for Michael Browns Parents however. I don't understand your point in what race most often kills what race...blacks are killing on average 122 people every year and non whites only 14. The only reason i brought up the 90 percent was to show it is fellow blacks more likely to kill fellow blacks than white police officers.

There is much to protest in St Louis... but they are protesting the wrong things...I feel and many I know feel they are ignoring their part in our problems and trying to blame it all on the police and racism.. that is dead wrong.

I knew from the start when I was pointing out the crime in St Louis that I would be accused of being racists... but damn it it is the truth. The only way our problems here in the St Louis are will ever be solved is if all of us recognize are part in the problem.

Butch

No, no, I think you are the same as me, trying to rationalize why it is happening. The unfortunate thing is that murder itself should have repercussions. Repercussions are exactly what deters others from thinking they too can commit murders and get away with it. We saw it with OJ Simpson, Casey Anthony and others. It is a problem when a murderer is let go on a technicality.
We already know murder is not a racial thing, the statistics show that. However we can admit that as a universal rule, poverty and crime are relative. I do not believe in infringing upon someone's right to bear arms but perhaps curtailing the illegal distribution of firearms may help as well as assessments of whether someone is responsible enough to be a firearm carrier. On another thread, someone said a Dom used a gun on his sub, that to me is a tad too far. I think boundaries are good. Also tackling the "inequality issue", not only in St Louis but in poor communities around the nation may be something to be addressed. Not all parents can micromanage their kids, my father surely could not, he was always working after hours crunching numbers. Your thoughts?

_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 112

RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/9/2014 9:27:42 PM

kdsub

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First I added an apology to my previous post and you may not of read it... please do.

I am ready to admit crime and poverty are related...but i just cannot see where poverty justifies murder.

There are of course situations where it will be hard to watch a child closely. If however you lived in my area you would have read articles in our local media about black children on the streets late at night unsupervised... children in gangs.... children not being made to attend school...children not being taught respect for others...children murdering children. I don't believe all these situations can be attributed to working parents although it can certainly contribute to the problem... I believe it is an attitude that only black parents can change.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to GoddessManko)

Post #: 113

RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/9/2014 9:44:30 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

please tell me how i am trying to pin crime on race... I am just telling you...and proving to you that in St. Louis blacks are committing the the vast majority of murders, robberies and assaults.

I think you answered your own question here.

What strikes me in your posts is that I keep reading that blacks, blacks, blacks do all these awful things. Yet there's little to no discussion of what other factors might be at work: economics and the pathologies of poverty, broken families, mental illness, addiction, gang membership, etc. Without delving into those thorny questions, you come dangerously close to saying "Blacks commit crimes because they're black."

quote:

Sometimes people just have to face up to facts so they can come up with solutions...

True. So what solutions do you propose?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 114

RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/9/2014 9:45:02 PM

BamaD

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curtailing the illegal distribution of firearms may help

GoddessManko

Obviously it is already illegal, I don't know if you were suggesting a new law, lack of a law isn't the problem, enforcement is.
We are reminded of the 100s of thousands of people stopped from getting the guns by the system, but virtually none of them are prosecuted. They railroad a woman for following a road taking her out of the state where she had a permit, they ban people from legitimate firearms purchases, but they seem to turn a blind eye to gangbangers and other criminals armed to the teeth.

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Post #: 115

RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/10/2014 6:18:02 AM

kdsub

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dc I have proposed solutions in this thread and the other on Ferguson...many. I proposed training programs.... citizen review boards... mentoring....reimbursement for education... hiring preferences...voter registration drives... petitioning. I have proposed ways the police could regain the trust of the citizens... In fact I am the only one that has proposed solutions that I know of.

In the previous threads on Ferguson on this site there was a lot of misinformation about the area... the participants in the protests...and on the reasons for the rioting and the demands and how many whites felt in being accused of racism in the area. The whole point of this thread was to point out what needs to be done for a lasting solutions. All the media coverage has centered on the Brown shooting and how blacks, and I say black because it is easier than typing out African American every time... just as i say white rather than Caucasian and every other non-black...feel and what they have to say with no coverage or little coverage on the majority opinion.

There are terrible problems in the African American community that only they can solve... I have been pointing that out. They are ignoring these problems in their protests blaming the wrong people. It is not the police that are the problem.

This would be a good time to go into the social issues... the real problem in this situation... I have already stated how I would try to solve them... To me the biggest problem in the African American community is lack of education. Companies in the St Louis area are looking for African Americans to hire. Part of the City's requirement of contractors is a minority representation quota and ownership but they are having problems finding qualified applicants. The City of St Louis has had to start mentoring programs of volunteer police and fireman to teach young blacks the basics of reading writing and arithmetic just so they can apply for city jobs... this is great but it should not be needed. Every school year the board and city has to have a program trying to get African American parents to get their kids to school. A good 10 percent, that was the last figure in the paper, just do not show up the first few weeks of class. They should not have to do that. The education system is falling apart in St. Louis becoming unaccredited. We need innovative ideas in Jefferson City on how to get these kids in school and the system working properly... That is beyond me.

Uneducated children are unemployable in all but the most menial dead-in jobs. AND because of the high crime rate there are fewer and fewer of those jobs in the black areas. So the next big step is to control the crime in African American neighborhoods so business can flourish. The single biggest complaint of police in solving crime is the almost total lack of cooperation of the community in doing so. I talked about how to build trust and a representative department, by the way who else has, so I am skipping that for now... Blacks must be witnesses to crime... they must aid to police in solving crime... they must start neighborhood watch programs... be proactive in reporting and preventing crime...know where their children are and what they are doing. Most of all what is needed is cooperation in the solutions... so far every attempt for meetings to come up with answers has been disrupted and speakers shouted down.

I would like to see more tax incentives to attract business to depressed areas... I would like to see derelict buildings condemned tore down and if nothing else planted with grass... I would like to see small business aid and education and encourage local start ups.

All of these things are within the reach of African Americans and all require their participation and most of all their VOTE.

Lets hear your suggestions and others... Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/10/2014 6:28:31 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 116

RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/10/2014 12:45:19 PM

Zonie63

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
There are terrible problems in the African American community that only they can solve... I have been pointing that out. They are ignoring these problems in their protests blaming the wrong people. It is not the police that are the problem.

This is a point that you've brought up in the past, but I think when looking at the wider community and the nation at large, this becomes a tricky question by itself. Whatever might be defined as the African American "community" - it's not something that exists on some isolated island or on a different planet. They're part of whatever community/municipality/county/state/country they're in.

A lot of what you're addressing here seems to affect the community encompassing the St. Louis metropolitan area. I don't live there myself, but if I did, I would see it as affecting "my" community just as much as "their" community. I live in a diverse community myself, but some people might live a few streets over or on the other side of the railroad tracks - they're still in the same municipality and under the same government. When I look at St. Louis, that's far away from me, and I would say it's more "your" community (or the community of all races living in that area) than it would have anything to do with African Americans living here in Tucson.

And how can they or anyone else actually "solve" the problem? Politicians, sociologists, psychologists, and other learned and intelligent people have tried for decades to figure out this problem and come up with a solution. The government has enacted all kinds of programs, financial aid for college, urban renewal projects, better housing, job training...but it only seems to go so far and to be sure, budgets are stretched to the limit. There's still a need for better mental health services, including drug and alcohol treatment. Of course, that will also mean an end to the insane "war on drugs" and taking a more rational approach to this public health problem.

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Post #: 117

RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/10/2014 6:54:11 PM

kdsub

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Zonie... I do understand your viewpoint...and it is depressing how we all have failed to solve our social problems. But I believe as slow and painful as race relations have been in the past there has been progress... I really do believe there is little systematic racism in America... but there is now sort of a well " they are just like me with the same opportunities now so they no longer need my help or special treatment from the government" attitude.

I believe that civilizations and cultures take a long time to change. And there is an overall accumulation of wealth and job opportunities and education in a particular group. For instance, it is a lot easier for me to help my daughter with her trigonometry homework because of my past education and experience. The same African American child may not get that same help from their parent because of that parent's lack of education and or opportunity. But if that child fights their way through, and it will be harder for him or her than my daughter, and learns the trig... It will be past along to the next generation when they have children.. and the civilization and culture advances. This takes time.

The above is just one social issue however... some of those I pointed out in the previous post can only be done by African Americans.. I cannot make them do those things and they are important. I do not think there is anything wrong with talking of a group as needing to do something. It is reality that I think of them as a group and they think of themselves as a group. It is only racist if I think my group superior to theirs. When I look at my neighbor down the street that happens to be black, and is one hell of a lot smarter than I... I think of him and her as Bill and Nancy and nothing else. Their race never enters my mind... Yet in the circumstance of Ferguson when we talk we talk about groups of people...weird but a fact of life.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/10/2014 7:02:55 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Zonie63)

Post #: 118

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