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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 8:46:06 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

DomKen I did not say that... you should know me better than that... but what is happening does mean something in reality... it is in the minds of white AND blacks in St. Louis... I am not making up stories... just check out the Post Dispatch... these things are happening and people are afraid.. the downtown area is dying... We now have to have metal detectors everywhere... The Mayor of St Louis just asked for 160 new police officers because the crime is beyond the departments ability to control... And no matter if you or I like it or not the majority is black crime

Should we all just ignore what is happening because to tell the truth sounds racist... will that is not me... I decided long ago to be truthful online.

Butch

The truth is that most violent crime is committed by poor people so if most poor people in St. Louis are black then of course that will be who commits  most of the violent crime. Having police forces act like occupying forces and legislative bodies passing punitive laws for minor offences will only make matters worse.

What needs to happen is integration of neighborhoods and reforms to the governments in the area.

yep government reform will miraculously change the morals of the people


Umm. . . how about less stupid shit being illegal?


I am all for that, the Gardner case would have been avoided completely had that advice been followed.
Somehow I doubt that that is the kind of reform DK has in mind.


Well, a crap load of cases would be avoided as well as cutting down on "prosecutorial discretion" and the ability to indict a "ham sandwich."

How much of the ill feelings directed towards the police would be ended if we did not have so many stupid things that were illegal? Is there a good reason to have to have a license to cut hair or put nail polish on someone for money? We have so much crap that is a crime that we do not actually know WHAT is a crime anymore.

I think that I mentioned on another thread, when you pass a law, however trivial, you are providing an opportunity for police to use lethal force.

That would require two things, people in government who realize that there actually things that are none of their business, and citizens who don't think that government can, and should, take care of everything for them.
Something as simple as asking someone to get out of the middle of the street can get a cop attacked. And outlawing a man from selling individual cigarettes can lead to a confrontation where the man is needlessly killed.
Stupid nitpicking laws make the later more likely, and create hostility leading to the former.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 12/4/2014 8:48:16 PM >


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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 8:48:31 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Well, a crap load of cases would be avoided as well as cutting down on "prosecutorial discretion" and the ability to indict a "ham sandwich."
How much of the ill feelings directed towards the police would be ended if we did not have so many stupid things that were illegal? Is there a good reason to have to have a license to cut hair or put nail polish on someone for money? We have so much crap that is a crime that we do not actually know WHAT is a crime anymore.
I think that I mentioned on another thread, when you pass a law, however trivial, you are providing an opportunity for police to use lethal force.


I'm willing to bet that those licenses are more about "Big Brother" getting his pound of flesh.

But, what you're suggesting is damn dangerous. We can't have just anyone with a pair of scissors cutting hair. Same goes for someone with an emery board. It's too dangerous to let just anyone find ways to use their skills to make money.


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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/4/2014 8:52:35 PM   
kdsub


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dc what a depressing article...and one that is not accurate....at least in some respects. Again if you lived here... if you read the local paper every day... you would hear over and over... how a crime was committed and witnesses refused to cooperate and testify.

I am not sure if the reason is fear of retribution from the criminal element or just distrust of the police. But it is next to impossible to solve crimes when people refuse to help by being witnesses.

Having African American officers on the force as St. Louis has not slowed the crime... I am not sure then what having better police would require but i have a few ideas. I think civilian review boards are needed to keep officers honest... I want to see police officers in the schools setting examples... I want to see active recruiting of African Americans especially in Ferguson... I want to see financial aid and a scholarship program in law enforcement for people of color. I want to see police officers out of their cars and on the streets talking with residents. I want to see the police trying to mend relations with the African American community... even if it is not believed eventually it will make a difference. I want new training and stricter laws when it comes to deadly force. I want to see community watch programs set up in high crime areas. Body cameras will not make police be respected in their communities... It is like saying... " I don't trust you and a camera is needed to protect me from you"...dumb shit in my opinion to think this will solve anything.

I am not sure what he means by white people are not asked to correct the behavior of other whites... of course we are. That part of the article makes little sense to me.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/4/2014 9:00:17 PM >


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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/5/2014 4:29:14 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Well, a crap load of cases would be avoided as well as cutting down on "prosecutorial discretion" and the ability to indict a "ham sandwich."

How much of the ill feelings directed towards the police would be ended if we did not have so many stupid things that were illegal? Is there a good reason to have to have a license to cut hair or put nail polish on someone for money? We have so much crap that is a crime that we do not actually know WHAT is a crime anymore.

I think that I mentioned on another thread, when you pass a law, however trivial, you are providing an opportunity for police to use lethal force.


The more big government control over our lives the better, right

Isnt that always the case

How dare some poor dude make a buck selling black market cigarettes in a liberal city

There will be retribution


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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/5/2014 4:50:42 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

So forgive the whites, and me, who have little sympathy for a petty criminal getting shot for attacking a police officer or the punk that took three shots at a police officer who then shot back and killed the bastard.

It is tough to be honest and I do find myself in conflict with what I know is the right way to think and what feelings burn deep in my stomach. Just as we in my area are supposed to overlook these isolated, although not real isolated, incidents and not think of all blacks as criminals so should blacks not think all cops are killers... yes there are reasons we feel the way we do... even if wrong.


Yep - I get what you feel! Myself, I watched this event unfolding and thought to myself, 'Another incidence of nastiness in America'. It's really difficult not to think of Americans as savages ... It's wrong to feel that way, but there are reasons for the way we Brits feel, even they're wrong reasons ....

Actually, I don't feel that at all. You get the point, though? You'd rightly get pretty damned prickly if a Brit were to say that about Americans - tarring all of you with the same brush? So, you could understand why black Americans would get pissed off at white Americans tarring *them* all with the same brush, no? Isn't it the same principle?


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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/5/2014 5:22:11 AM   
tweakabelle


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Yes. We have a similar problem here. It has even been institutionalised by the police, who have established the gloriously-named 'Middle East Organised Crime Squad'. Note that it is the 'Middle East' squad not the Arab or Muslim squad. That would be a no-no of course in these PC days it would be sooooo discriminatory. But every fool and their dogs know who is really being targetted.

Just like the US, we have 'middle east/Aborigine crime' committed by Arabs/Aborigines and 'crime' for all other races. We have no concept of white crime even though the vast majority of crimes are carried out by white Australians. It's odd that the nature of the offender rather than the nature of the crime is the only distinguishing factor in incidents involving Arabs or Aborigines but of course it's not racist. No way is it racist - it's just the way things are .......

[/sarcasm]

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/5/2014 5:32:40 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


Yep - I get what you feel! Myself, I watched this event unfolding and thought to myself, 'Another incidence of nastiness in America'. It's really difficult not to think of Americans as savages ... It's wrong to feel that way, but there are reasons for the way we Brits feel, even they're wrong reasons ....

Actually, I don't feel that at all. You get the point, though? You'd rightly get pretty damned prickly if a Brit were to say that about Americans - tarring all of you with the same brush? So, you could understand why black Americans would get pissed off at white Americans tarring *them* all with the same brush, no? Isn't it the same principle?




Why yes, you do on a regular basis and we do. Not sure why you put the "if" in there.

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/5/2014 7:22:14 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I could go on and on and on and on and on and on and on listing the violent crime committed by blacks… and my God the crime they commit against each other is even worse… just check out the number of blacks killing blacks in St Louis… we are talking hundreds of murders in a year. In my little sub of St Louis in the last 5 years two police officers have been murdered by blacks… our Mayor…our public works director and two councilmen have been murdered by blacks.

So forgive the whites, and me, who have little sympathy for a petty criminal getting shot for attacking a police officer or the punk that took three shots at a police officer who then shot back and killed the bastard.

It is tough to be honest and I do find myself in conflict with what I know is the right way to think and what feelings burn deep in my stomach. Just as we in my area are supposed to overlook these isolated, although not real isolated, incidents and not think of all blacks as criminals so should blacks not think all cops are killers... yes there are reasons we feel the way we do... even if wrong.

Butch


I can understand one's frustration over crime in one's area. We have our share of violent crime in southern Arizona, in addition to being close to the border which is another source of frustration for many here. The type of violent criminal behavior you're describing here can actually be found among all races.

One thing that should not be overlooked is that a lot of these cities were, at least at one time, ruled by organized crime which was aided and abetted by the local police and government. After generations of turning the blind eye to organized crime, it shouldn't be too surprising that some of these cities end up as they do. Popular culture and the entertainment media have glorified organized crime as well. If whites don't like what's happening in these cities, then they never should have allowed organized crime to become so powerful in the first place. At least if we're willing to recognize this, then it might put us on a road towards a solution.

So, in order to rein in all the delinquent "little fish," society still has to take a more direct and forthright approach against all the "big fish" who have been calling the shots and allowing situations like this to fester for as long as they have. That's not to mitigate or excuse any crimes the "little fish" are committing out there, but we should at least try to put this in an honest and realistic perspective. That's the main problem with issues like this, since society only really wants to deal with symptoms without making any honest effort to seek out the root cause.

It's much the same with our problems here along the border, the cartel and gang wars and so forth. There's a strong police presence, a lot of Border Patrol, yet all they ever do is go after the small fry. That tells me that the powers that be are not really interested in solving the problem, they're full of shit, and they're nothing more than wanton hypocrites who mock the very ideals they pretend to uphold. When viewed from that perspective, the police force becomes nothing more than just another criminal gang in the eyes of many people. I know that many who see the police differently might take offense at comparisons like this, but at least we should be realistic enough to acknowledge that such perceptions exist for a reason. And no, they don't exist in a vacuum either.





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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/5/2014 8:29:36 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I am not sure what he means by white people are not asked to correct the behavior of other whites... of course we are. That part of the article makes little sense to me.

I read it as meaning that white criminals are not taken as emblematic of the entire white population. Nor are whites, at least in my experience, expected to somehow have the ability to change the behavior of other whites simply on the basis of skin color.

"Back in 2011, the most recent year for which data is available, a staggering 83 percent of white murder victims were killed by fellow Caucasians" (source). Yet I haven't heard or read calls for "the white community" to get its act together or rethink its violent culture. It's hard to imagine anyone's saying that the victims--and their grieving loved ones--don't deserve sympathy because of the prevalence of white-on-white crime.

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/5/2014 8:38:27 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

Actually, I don't feel that at all. You get the point, though? You'd rightly get pretty damned prickly if a Brit were to say that about Americans - tarring all of you with the same brush? So, you could understand why black Americans would get pissed off at white Americans tarring *them* all with the same brush, no? Isn't it the same principle?


Peon I do see your and others point about painting all African Americans... All I can do is reiterate what I have said before... I am not painting all Blacks as criminals. I am however saying there are good reasons why many whites AND BLACKS think the black protesters... not all blacks...are protesting for the wrong reasons...And.. they need to stand up to their part in the crisis and stop blaming everything on police and whites.

I listed some crime in the news yesterday and below in the paper today. If you lived in an area with this type and frequency of crime... and this crime was committed overwhelmingly by African Americans...would you not say there is a problem with crime in the black community... without being called a RACISTS?

1.) Body found In river Deperes

2.)St Louis… murder charges filed on Tarron Anderson… First degree Murder and armed criminal action Police said he shot two men one fatally.

3.) St Louis… Shots fired kill car passenger Terrell Bass in gun battle between two cars near Norwood.

4.) St Louis…One dead in triple shooting...Three traveling west on Page were shot from another vehicle. One man was killed another two gunshot wounds to the side the other a graze wound.

5.) St. Louis…Female driver with two year old were chased and fired on along Martin Luther King bridge as they tried to flee across the river.

This is EVERY day not just now and then. The above is in this days Post Dispatch

Then you have the media... tell me did you see a report of hundreds of Whites marching in the streets of South St Louis with signs that say " Bosnian Lives Matter" Maybe you did but i will almost bet you did not because that would not fit into the picture the national news media is painting all white people and police. This is an immigrant area of St. Louis... These people are poor trying to build new lives...They are suffering from black crime and want more police protection. Is it racists to state facts!!!

I have been trying to show people the other side... by giving facts and truth... I am not lessening the problems of African Americans but I am showing you some of the reasons why the problems are deeper than police interactions with African Americans and why there is disdain for the protests because they fail to admit to their part in the problems of the area.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/5/2014 9:00:56 AM >


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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/5/2014 8:48:29 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I am not sure what he means by white people are not asked to correct the behavior of other whites... of course we are. That part of the article makes little sense to me.

I read it as meaning that white criminals are not taken as emblematic of the entire white population. Nor are whites, at least in my experience, expected to somehow have the ability to change the behavior of other whites simply on the basis of skin color.

"Back in 2011, the most recent year for which data is available, a staggering 83 percent of white murder victims were killed by fellow Caucasians" (source). Yet I haven't heard or read calls for "the white community" to get its act together or rethink its violent culture. It's hard to imagine anyone's saying that the victims--and their grieving loved ones--don't deserve sympathy because of the prevalence of white-on-white crime.

There are two differences.
A The crime rate among blacks is much higher than among whites.
B No matter what the circumstances whites do not feel they have a right to riot if a white person is killed by a cop.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 12/5/2014 8:49:32 AM >


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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/5/2014 8:49:10 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

I can understand one's frustration over crime in one's area. We have our share of violent crime in southern Arizona, in addition to being close to the border which is another source of frustration for many here. The type of violent criminal behavior you're describing here can actually be found among all races


Zonie I agree it can be found... but I challenge you to find it in St. Louis among whites at that frequency.. remember St Louis is divided 50/50 African Americans to white.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/5/2014 8:53:06 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

This thread brings to mind a point made in the latest New Yorker:

Giuliani’s argument [that the real problem is black-on-black crime] is a curious, if durable, one that would seem to suggest that the members of a community should themselves be responsible for correcting the behavior of other members of their demographic. (Nobody asks the same of the white population.)

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/12/08/crimes-commissions


My recent dust-up with Mr. Giuliani on national television tapped a deep vein of racially charged perception. In a discussion on “Meet the Press” of Ferguson and its racial fallout, Mr. Giuliani steered the conversation down the path of a conservative shibboleth: that the real problem facing black communities is not brutality at the hands of white cops but brutality in the grips of black thugs. He cited the fact that 93 percent of black homicide victims are killed by black people; I argued that these murderers often go to jail, unlike the white cops who kill blacks with the backing of the government. What I didn’t have time to say was that 84 percent of white homicide victims are killed by white people, and yet no language of condemnation exists to frame a white-on-white malady that begs relief by violent policing.

.........Many whites who point to blacks killing blacks are moved less by concern for black communities than by a desire to fend off criticism of unjust white cops. They have the earnest belief that they are offering new ideas to black folk about the peril we foment in our own neighborhoods.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/opinion/sunday/where-do-we-go-after-ferguson.html

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 12/5/2014 9:04:48 AM >

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/5/2014 8:54:57 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I am not sure what he means by white people are not asked to correct the behavior of other whites... of course we are. That part of the article makes little sense to me.

I read it as meaning that white criminals are not taken as emblematic of the entire white population. Nor are whites, at least in my experience, expected to somehow have the ability to change the behavior of other whites simply on the basis of skin color.

"Back in 2011, the most recent year for which data is available, a staggering 83 percent of white murder victims were killed by fellow Caucasians" (source). Yet I haven't heard or read calls for "the white community" to get its act together or rethink its violent culture. It's hard to imagine anyone's saying that the victims--and their grieving loved ones--don't deserve sympathy because of the prevalence of white-on-white crime.

There are two differences.
A The crime rate among blacks is much higher than among whites.
B No matter what the circumstances whites do not feel they have a right to riot if a white person is killed by a cop.

Apparently you've never heard of right-wing militia groups.

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/5/2014 8:57:29 AM   
kdsub


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dc check the murder rate among blacks and compare it to whites... then tell me again if it is not disproportionate. The difference I believe IS in the distrust of police...In white neighborhoods when a murder in committed it makes no difference what race did it police get cooperation from witnesses and the crime is often solved... This IS policing yourself... But in African American neighborhoods when a murder is committed often witnesses refuse to cooperate and the murders go unsolved. Of course this is not all the time and we are speaking in generalities. But it is happening frequently and news stories often list this fact when covering them.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/5/2014 9:00:17 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

why there is disdain for the protests because they fail to admit to their part in the problems of the area.

I can't help wondering: What was my "part" as a white person in, say, the Fort Hood killings or Sandy Hook massacre?

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/5/2014 9:02:19 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Apparently you've never heard of right-wing militia groups.

Or the mafia and its code of omerta.

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/5/2014 9:05:05 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

The difference I believe IS in the distrust of police

Have you considered the possibility that many African Americans may not have found the police to be trustworthy?

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/5/2014 9:09:11 AM   
kdsub


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I personally think we all had a part in that tragedy... we failed to make treatment for the mentally ill affordable... we failed to properly control access to killing weapons and I don't see the direct link to Ferguson and not policing white people.

I do seem to remember outrage in all communities and races and I don't , thank heavens, see that happening every day like the carnage in St. Louis.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Is Ferguson happening in a vacuum - 12/5/2014 9:11:43 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

dc check the murder rate among blacks and compare it to whites... then tell me again if it is not disproportionate. The difference I believe IS in the distrust of police...In white neighborhoods when a murder in committed it makes no difference what race did it police get cooperation from witnesses and the crime is often solved... This IS policing yourself... But in African American neighborhoods when a murder is committed often witnesses refuse to cooperate and the murders go unsolved. Of course this is not all the time and we are speaking in generalities. But it is happening frequently and news stories often list this fact when covering them.

Butch


I can't believe how racist you are. That is not true at all about "white neighborhoods" but it might be true about affluent neighborhoods.

>The one topic that’s not being discussed and is never discussed is [that] we don’t believe it’s an issue of race. We believe it’s an issue of poverty. Communities that have distrust of law enforcement — it’s because law enforcement is the only part of government they ever see. They’re poor; infant mortality rates are higher; single-family homes are higher; unemployment is higher; people don’t live as long as the average American. And that is the issue in every community in America that we police.

Race is an issue that should have open discussion, but the bottom line is, when you have depressed communities, it leads to higher crime, which leads to more police, which leads to the only part of government they ever see. Law enforcement’s even used in child cases. In most states, social workers can’t take a child away: Police are required to do that. Even when it’s not a criminal matter, police are usually the people who have to enforce it.<

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/12/04/police-union-on-brown-and-garner-we-dont-believe-its-an-issue-of-race-we-believe-its-an-issue-of-poverty/

The problem as I see it is when you combine the underclass with a racial minority --- white people have racist reactions like your post above.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 12/5/2014 9:14:06 AM >

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