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RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/15/2015 6:54:11 AM   
crumpets


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

@crumpets, thank you for your contribution from your own perspective. It's always good to hear from the /m side of F/m.


I appreciate the acknowledgement.
I'm learning, myself, from this communication on the fundamental differences between male and female dominance dynamics.

Initially, it seemed folks just assumed the female dominant dynamic was the flip side of the male dominance dynamic, but, if you read the most enlightening posts, there apparently is nothing in common, other than superfluous minutia.

I think the most compelling summary came from the op himself, when he said paradoxically "women are women first, and men are men first, and therein lies all the difference!".

(in reply to FieryOpal)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/15/2015 10:10:29 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets
Initially, it seemed folks just assumed the female dominant dynamic was the flip side of the male dominance dynamic, but, if you read the most enlightening posts, there apparently is nothing in common, other than superfluous minutia.

I think the most compelling summary came from the op himself, when he said paradoxically "women are women first, and men are men first, and therein lies all the difference!".


"women are women first, and men are men first..." what is that even supposed to mean?

(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/15/2015 1:14:55 PM   
crumpets


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From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
"women are women first, and men are men first..." what is that even supposed to mean?


I think what the OP and others were getting at is the dynamic difference stems from the biology of the person first, and foremost.

So, for example, if men, overall, tend to lead with, say, their sexual needs in vanilla relationships, then they'll tend to lead with their kinky needs in dominant relationships, and, to the point, they'll tend to lead with their kink when in submissive relationships.

Likewise, I think it means that if women, biologically, tend to lead with relationships in the vanilla world, then they'll tend to lead with relationships in the submissive world, and, to the point of this thread, they'll tend to lead similarly in the female dominance dynamic.

At least that's how I interpret what the OP was trying to say, and what others have implied before him.


(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/15/2015 1:35:38 PM   
littleladybug


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets


I think what the OP and others were getting at is the dynamic difference stems from the biology of the person first, and foremost.

So, for example, if men, overall, tend to lead with, say, their sexual needs in vanilla relationships, then they'll tend to lead with their kinky needs in dominant relationships, and, to the point, they'll tend to lead with their kink when in submissive relationships.

Likewise, I think it means that if women, biologically, tend to lead with relationships in the vanilla world, then they'll tend to lead with relationships in the submissive world, and, to the point of this thread, they'll tend to lead similarly in the female dominance dynamic.

At least that's how I interpret what the OP was trying to say, and what others have implied before him.




Ok..I'll admit that I'm completely confused here.

I am a submissive woman, in a relationship with a Dominant male. Ok.

Now, what makes my relationship any different from a "female led relationship"? Precisely NOTHING except the gender of the person who is "leading" the relationship. Or, am I missing something here?

I am a gal who *likes* to have her doors opened, and her coat taken from her. I know submissive women who happily open doors for their man, and take their coats. Not my thing, but ok. You treat a woman like you want to treat her, and in the manner in which she wants to be treated, no?

In this regard, how am I different from any woman, in any sort of relationship? How *is* the FLR such a "weird animal"?

Maybe you, crumpets (not to put you on the spot) can enlighten me on this. I am sincerely interested to know, because I am at a loss.




(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/15/2015 2:06:09 PM   
crumpets


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug

Now, what makes my relationship any different from a "female led relationship"? Precisely NOTHING except the gender of the person who is "leading" the relationship. Or, am I missing something here?


You understand well.
The suggestion is that the realization that gender tendencies determines the dynamic more so than the dominant/submissive tendencies.
That's the concept we're fleshing out anyway.

(in reply to littleladybug)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/15/2015 2:33:54 PM   
littleladybug


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets

You understand well.
The suggestion is that the realization that gender tendencies determines the dynamic more so than the dominant/submissive tendencies.
That's the concept we're fleshing out anyway.


Honestly, I'm not trying to be a bitch here, really. But, I have to ask...why is *this* thread even here?

Are we trying to say that the relationships are "different" because the person leading them doesn't have a Y chromosome? Or, is it something more than that?

I have spent a lot of time speaking with other female submissives in male-led relationships. The one thing we have in common is that the person we call "Sir", "Master" or whatever, has a Y chromosome. Nothing else. Hell, my first correspondence with my man on here was me asking him, quite sarcastically, why he had an alpaca with him on a hiking trail. Yeah, turned out to be a llama....but, point being, this is what brought *us* together. We've been together for several months, are looking long term. Nothing sexual at the onset, and, much to my chagrin, *I* was the one who first made contact.

I've also been in relationships where our first contact was purely sexual, and the relationship turned out to be really long term.

Point is, I guess, that relationships simply are what they are. And that I am still failing to see how M/f is so radically different from F/m. Unless, of course, part of the appeal is to accentuate the perceived differences...

(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/15/2015 2:43:49 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug


quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets

You understand well.
The suggestion is that the realization that gender tendencies determines the dynamic more so than the dominant/submissive tendencies.
That's the concept we're fleshing out anyway.


Honestly, I'm not trying to be a bitch here, really. But, I have to ask...why is *this* thread even here?

Are we trying to say that the relationships are "different" because the person leading them doesn't have a Y chromosome? Or, is it something more than that?

I think they are desperately trying to make it more than that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug
Point is, I guess, that relationships simply are what they are. And that I am still failing to see how M/f is so radically different from F/m. Unless, of course, part of the appeal is to accentuate the perceived differences...

To me, they aren't.
Each and every relationship is what it is - very individual.
Whether the leader has a Y chromosome or not, makes no difference.
Everyone has their own dynamic.

One leads, one follows. That's pretty much it.
That's all there is to it. Simples!!

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to littleladybug)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/15/2015 7:03:34 PM   
LiveSpark


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug


quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets

You understand well.
The suggestion is that the realization that gender tendencies determines the dynamic more so than the dominant/submissive tendencies.
That's the concept we're fleshing out anyway.


Honestly, I'm not trying to be a bitch here, really. But, I have to ask...why is *this* thread even here?

Are we trying to say that the relationships are "different" because the person leading them doesn't have a Y chromosome? Or, is it something more than that?

I think they are desperately trying to make it more than that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug
Point is, I guess, that relationships simply are what they are. And that I am still failing to see how M/f is so radically different from F/m. Unless, of course, part of the appeal is to accentuate the perceived differences...

To me, they aren't.
Each and every relationship is what it is - very individual.
Whether the leader has a Y chromosome or not, makes no difference.
Everyone has their own dynamic.

One leads, one follows. That's pretty much it.
That's all there is to it. Simples!!


Well said FD and llb It really IS that simple yet there are some who make it seem so much more complicated.

_____________________________

I've been here as MontrealPhoenix, zephyr and
TheFireWithinMe.

I also have the sarcasm gene which is NOT to be taken seriously.

If you fall I'll always be there to catch you ~ Floor

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/15/2015 7:33:33 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		Reasonable positions, what a breath of fresh air.

(in reply to LiveSpark)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/15/2015 8:49:03 PM   
crumpets


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From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Each and every relationship is what it is - very individual.


I hope you take it right, but, that's a copout.
Each and every grain of salt is different.
Each and every snowflake is different.
Each and every zebra is different.
Each and every empire is different.
Each and every president is different.
Each and every tree is different.
(ad infinitum)

Sure. Those are all true statements.
But anyone making those kinds of statements is only showing they haven't ever bothered to figure out the topic well enough to conclude anything useful about it.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/15/2015 9:53:16 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets
Likewise, I think it means that if women, biologically, tend to lead with relationships in the vanilla world, then they'll tend to lead with relationships in the submissive world, and, to the point of this thread, they'll tend to lead similarly in the female dominance dynamic.


You've thrown the word biologically in there, what exactly is the claim you're making?

(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/16/2015 2:47:25 AM   
NookieNotes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Each and every relationship is what it is - very individual.


I hope you take it right, but, that's a copout.
Each and every grain of salt is different.
Each and every snowflake is different.
Each and every zebra is different.
Each and every empire is different.
Each and every president is different.
Each and every tree is different.
(ad infinitum)

Sure. Those are all true statements.
But anyone making those kinds of statements is only showing they haven't ever bothered to figure out the topic well enough to conclude anything useful about it.


You are both right, in my view.

Yes, every relationship (individual) must stand on it's own, be created specifically for the two individuals involved.

However, there are generalities that will be true for the majority of people.

For example, the statement "FemDoms are more likely to focus on relationships over sex," will likely hold true for 70-85% of women.

YES, there will be exceptions. And those exceptions will probably be loud and outspoken, but that does not make the generalization less true.

The issue is when people try to use the generalizations we need (yes, need) to hold to navigate the world to define individuals, and when we do not experience enough to split our generalizations into smaller parts. That's when that particular survival method fails us.

_____________________________

Nookie
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https://datingkinky.com

I Write! A few of my books on Amazon: http://amazon.com/author/msnnotes

(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/16/2015 7:46:48 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
However, there are generalities that will be true for the majority of people.


I would expect there to be trends, but there seems to be a difference of opinion in the thread on where they come from. Are they a matter of biology or are they attributable to the horse I've been backing, culture.

(in reply to NookieNotes)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/16/2015 9:31:23 AM   
FieryOpal


Posts: 2821
Joined: 12/8/2013
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		~ FR ~ Below for illustrative purposes is good advice given by (male sub) seekingreality to a femsub OP from the current thread on "submissive rights..."
http://www.collarchat.com/m_4761505/mpage_5/key_/tm.htm#4770399

quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingreality
quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillsurrnder

I was talking to a Dom and He decided He wanted to meet me for dinner. i had agreed to meet with the condition that i do not get sexual on a first meet. When i put this condition on meeting, He changed from dinner to having a drink. He told me that in order to meet, He had to have full control over everything including whether or not there would be sex. i told Him that i could not agree to that. i am single and new to this and i am not here to be used by every Dom i meet for the first time and that is why i have this rule for myself. He told me that He doesn't think i am submissive because i have this rule in place to protect myself from being taken advantage of. He told me that i was trying to be in control. i was told by a friend that happens to be a Dom, i should have this rule in place. So, my question is...as long as i am not taken...do i have the right to say no sex at a first meet?

Here's how I'd respond to something like that:

I may be submissive, but I am not your submissive. At this moment, you don't have full control over me -- you have no control over me. The purpose of meeting is not for me to instantly submit to you; it's for us to see if we have any connection and even like each other. So your best course is to think of me as a human being first, not as a submissive, and make no presumptions, because at this moment we have no relationship and neither of us has any obligation to the other. If you want to try again and ask me out again, I'll give you one more chance. And if you think anything I said indicates something "wrong" about my submissiveness or you want to negatively critique anything I said, please just go away -- you aren't the dom I am looking for. My submissiveness is not given away but earned, and not easily earned. Remember and respect that.

While the above scenario could apply to a small minority of FemDoms seeking a sex slave, it is more prevalent within the maleDom environment from what I've gleaned. YMMV.

For those who would say that there are no significant differences between FemDom and maleDom, I have yet to encounter a complaint within FemDom from a male sub who didn't want more (instant) sexual access than what a Domme was prepared to give him, while it is more the opposite with male Dominants and female s-types.

Whether any of the above is biologically/anatomically-based, culturally-based, or ideologically-based, is irrelevant to the starker realities of the situation(s) at hand.

_____________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/16/2015 9:54:51 AM   
NookieNotes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
However, there are generalities that will be true for the majority of people.


I would expect there to be trends, but there seems to be a difference of opinion in the thread on where they come from. Are they a matter of biology or are they attributable to the horse I've been backing, culture.


I don't believe it can't be easily separated. A good portion is biology/evolution. Another part is culture.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

For those who would say that there are no significant differences between FemDom and maleDom, I have yet to encounter a complaint within FemDom from a male sub who didn't want more (instant) sexual access than what a Domme was prepared to give him, while it is more the opposite with male Dominants and female s-types.

Whether any of the above is biologically/anatomically-based, culturally-based, or ideologically-based, is irrelevant to the starker realities of the situation(s) at hand.


Agreed.

_____________________________

Nookie
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(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/16/2015 11:20:23 AM   
littleladybug


Posts: 1082
Joined: 5/30/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal



For those who would say that there are no significant differences between FemDom and maleDom, I have yet to encounter a complaint within FemDom from a male sub who didn't want more (instant) sexual access than what a Domme was prepared to give him, while it is more the opposite with male Dominants and female s-types.

Whether any of the above is biologically/anatomically-based, culturally-based, or ideologically-based, is irrelevant to the starker realities of the situation(s) at hand.


Men will be men. That stupid "Y" chromosome that I love and hate so much.... I view that issue much the same as a FemDom coming on here speaking about a guy "wanting her to be a fetish delivery system".

I suppose my interest in this comes from the perspective of someone who looks for a more "long term" thing, which may make things a little different. When I read FemDoms speaking about "treat me as a woman first"...yup, I can totally relate to that one. And "don't expect me to be your fetish delivery system". Yup. A man who is unwilling to open his wallet for a first date is someone that won't have a second date with me. (Maybe that's the "femsub" version of tribute?)

Point is, as much as I feel like I *should* be seeing these relationships as different (apart from the person who is actually leading the relationship), I'm really having a hard time doing so.


quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets

Sure. Those are all true statements.
But anyone making those kinds of statements is only showing they haven't ever bothered to figure out the topic well enough to conclude anything useful about it.


Ok, so what in your opinion is to be concluded about the topic? I am asking this out of sheer interest, as this is a topic that has been on my mind since I've joined here. You have spoken about biological differences, and I'd really like to hear more about that.

I'm coming from a place of believing that the only generalization that can be made about male-led relationships is that there is some sort of authority transfer. It could be for a minute a day, or it could be 24/7. It can be partial control, total control, or anywhere in between. As far as the other stuff? Sex, no sex...other sorts of service, or not...worship of various body parts...isn't it really, whatever the people in the relationship want from their relationship? How is a female led relationship fundamentally different in your view?



(in reply to FieryOpal)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/16/2015 4:03:56 PM   
crumpets


Posts: 1614
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From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
It really IS that simple yet there are some who make it seem so much more complicated.


If you think every rock is the same, then you clearly don't understand rocks at all.
If you think every black person is the same, then you clearly don't understand black people.
If you think every tree is the same, then you clearly don't understand trees very well.
etc.

If you think that a female-led relationship is the same thing as a male-led relationship, only of difference genders, then you are telling us absolutely nothing about the relationships. Worse, you're almost certainly wrong.

I'm NOT saying I understand, but I understand things well enough to know that they're not at all the same.

(in reply to LiveSpark)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/16/2015 4:11:23 PM   
LiveSpark


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/25/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
It really IS that simple yet there are some who make it seem so much more complicated.


If you think every rock is the same, then you clearly don't understand rocks at all.
If you think every black person is the same, then you clearly don't understand black people.
If you think every tree is the same, then you clearly don't understand trees very well.
etc.

If you think that a female-led relationship is the same thing as a male-led relationship, only of difference genders, then you are telling us absolutely nothing about the relationships. Worse, you're almost certainly wrong.

I'm NOT saying I understand, but I understand things well enough to know that they're not at all the same.


Break it down to basics and yes they are. Each relationship is different but bottom line is that they are basically the same only with the roles reverses. But hey if it makes you feel better to exaggerate have at it.

_____________________________

I've been here as MontrealPhoenix, zephyr and
TheFireWithinMe.

I also have the sarcasm gene which is NOT to be taken seriously.

If you fall I'll always be there to catch you ~ Floor

(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/16/2015 4:16:07 PM   
crumpets


Posts: 1614
Joined: 11/5/2014
From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
However, there are generalities that will be true for the majority of people.


Exactly my point to the people who reply that they're either ALL the same or ALL different.
The simple fact is that anyone saying that is stating nothing of value.
It's like saying all trees are the same or all trees are different - and then thinking you've imparted some kind of knowledge upon the recipient.

Some trees are hardwoods, and some are softwoods (not to be confused with hard wood and soft wood).
Some are conifers while others are angiosperms.
Some are oaks, while some are maples.
etc.

If you truly believe you can't GROUP people into some sort of category, then you either know everything or nothing about them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
For example, the statement "FemDoms are more likely to focus on relationships over sex," will likely hold true for 70-85% of women.


Exactly my point. There ARE generalizations which CAN be made, but only by those who truly UNDERSTAND the dynamic.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
YES, there will be exceptions. And those exceptions will probably be loud and outspoken, but that does not make the generalization less true.

Exactly. It's really all about statistics, but, keeping math out of our generalizations, what we mean is the majority or at least a large group of the individuals act, in general, in a certain way.

To say that they all act differently (or that they all act the same) would, again, merely mean that the speaker knows either everything or nothing at all (where the certainty is that closer to the latter than to the former).


quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
The issue is when people try to use the generalizations we need (yes, need) to hold to navigate the world to define individuals, and when we do not experience enough to split our generalizations into smaller parts. That's when that particular survival method fails us.


Wonderfully summarized!
The word is we NEED to make these generalizations if we are to UNDERSTAND that which we seek to understand.

If we didn't generalize that oaks have acorns and lobate leaves and that they are angiosperms and hard wood, then we could never understand why the pine in the back yard behaves totally differently than the oak in the front. Yet, some oaks might not have lobate leaves, and some might not have acorns, and some might have a softer wood than others (although, in general, an oak won't have the tell-tale characteristics of a pine just as a female led relationship most likely won't have the same characteristics of a male led relationship).

Those who can't generalize, don't know anything, while those who understand general characteristics know a lot, but, they also know not to assume all individuals fit the generalization all the time. This is basic intelligence, people.

(in reply to NookieNotes)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/16/2015 4:21:24 PM   
crumpets


Posts: 1614
Joined: 11/5/2014
From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
For those who would say that there are no significant differences between FemDom and maleDom, I have yet to encounter a complaint within FemDom from a male sub who didn't want more (instant) sexual access than what a Domme was prepared to give him, while it is more the opposite with male Dominants and female s-types.


That is EXACTLY the kind of insightful intelligent discourse this thread needs, to come to any sort of understanding of the difference in dynamics.

(in reply to FieryOpal)
Profile   Post #: 100
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