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RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/16/2015 4:25:35 PM   
crumpets


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
I don't believe it can't be easily separated. A good portion is biology/evolution. Another part is culture.


I have to be careful how I respond to this, because every scientist or engineer or psychologist or politician or manager (etc) who ever pondered ANY difficult problem has ALWAYS had to deal with details.

However, if the details prevent the (scientist/engineer/psychologist/etc) from coming to any sort of conclusion, then they don't know their subject matter all that well.

Anyone who knows children, for example, can summarize how they act, in general, and they can group them.
Anyone who understands toddlers, for example, can do the same.
Anyone who understands teens, realizes things get more complicated, but they can still make generalizations that hold well under scrutiny.
As we age, to young adults (as the OP seems to be), things definitely get more complicated, but, that increase of detail shouldn't mean we just give up, and declare every relationship so totally different that nothing useful can be concluded from any of them.

(in reply to NookieNotes)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/16/2015 4:46:51 PM   
NookieNotes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets
I have to be careful how I respond to this, because every scientist or engineer or psychologist or politician or manager (etc) who ever pondered ANY difficult problem has ALWAYS had to deal with details.


There are things that women (in general) are better at than men. There are things that men (in general) excel at. Because of evolution.

There are outliers and exceptions, but understanding simple biology gives us a starting place.

Then, add on culture, and we have even more to go on.

Again, all of these things are generalities.

As FemDoms are outliers of femininity, IN GENERAL, as women tend towards sexual submission overall.

BUT, that does not (necessarily) make them outliers in other areas, although we may well be.

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(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/16/2015 4:48:58 PM   
crumpets


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug
How is a female led relationship fundamentally different in your view?


I don't think I UNDERSTAND the dynamic well enough to characterize the differences with any sort of accuracy.

I'd stake a bet that the dynamic isn't fundamentally at all the same - mainly because women are fundamentally different than men, kinky or otherwise; but I have never compiled reliable statistics to back this up - which is why I take an interest in this thread.

I am interested in this thread because I have the PRESUMPTION that there are people here (like FieryOpal & NookieNotes ) who seem to actually UNDERSTAND there is a different dynamic, and some here have taken a stab at DEFINING those differences.

If I were forced to prematurely characterize what I THINK is a major difference, I'd be testing whether the hypothesis that men tend to lead with sex while women tend to lead with relationships hold true in D/s relationships.

We'd have to design a set of experiments (or questions) to flesh out if that hypothesis holds water, but, one test is to see what women COMPLAIN about when it comes to female led relationships. Or, we could look at it from the standpoint of PRAISE.

Q: What is the biggest complaint women have when seeking prospective male submissives?
Q: What do women PRAISE most when they've found an excellent male submissive?

(in reply to littleladybug)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/17/2015 10:58:40 PM   
FieryOpal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

"women are women first, and men are men first..." what is that even supposed to mean?

There wasn't a Google translate on this , but here goes:

Women are women first, then Dominant second.
Primary = Dominant Woman
Secondary = Female Dominant

Men are men first, then Dominant second.
Primary = Dominant Man
Secondary = Male Dominant

Further,
Women are women first, then submissive second.
Primary = submissive Woman
Secondary = Female submissive

Men are men first, then submissive second.
Primary = submissive Man
Secondary = Male submissive

And so on, with S/switches.

If this does not fit into your biological vs. cultural influences, or Nature vs. Nurture dogmatism regarding (primary/secondary) gender differences, then please explain or support your position regarding (primary/secondary) characteristics for Dominance and for submission:

-- Is Dominance biologically based (innate/inherent) or culturally influenced (a result of conditioning, environment, or a learned response)?
-- Is submission biologically based (innate/inherent) or culturally influenced (a result of conditioning, environment, or a learned response)?
-- Is being a S/switch biologically based (innate/inherent) or culturally influenced (a result of conditioning, environment, or a learned response)?

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(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/19/2015 10:23:25 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
Whether any of the above is biologically/anatomically-based, culturally-based, or ideologically-based, is irrelevant to the starker realities of the situation(s) at hand.


I would disagree and here's why:

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.brandeis.edu/barnett/docs/7535.pdf
As I’m sure you are all aware, we
have a cultural bias in the
U.S. towards thinking that women
are not capable of
being effective
leaders.
This bias is clearly reflect
ed in the media
treatment of
women in politics and business.

One driver of this bias is t
he belief in the natural order of things.

Put simply, by nature, men take charge and women take
care.
If this thinking is correct, t
hen powerful women, women in
leadership positions ar
e anomalies; they go agai
nst the natural order.
Like other beliefs,
this belief shape
s our perceptions,
expectations, our behavio
rs, and importantly what
the next generation
learns about wome
n and leadership.

The belief in gender difference
in leadership is
reinforced
endlessly.
One particularly insidious and well-documented way is
through a process social psycholo
gists call stereotype confirmation.


(in reply to NookieNotes)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/19/2015 10:31:24 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

The belief in gender difference
in leadership is
reinforced
endlessly.
One particularly insidious and well-documented way is
through a process social psycholo
gists call stereotype confirmation.


Nothing counterintuitive in that. On the other hand, maybe kinksters are kinksters because of something that 'bubbles up through' the stereotype confirmation.

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/20/2015 1:06:24 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Nothing counterintuitive in that. On the other hand, maybe kinksters are kinksters because of something that 'bubbles up through' the stereotype confirmation.


Not for me, my kinkyness is very much the product of social cues I was exposed to at an impressionable age, more specifically this is how sexy was presented to me. How about you, where does your kinky come from?






Attachment (1)

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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/20/2015 3:23:48 PM   
littleladybug


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets


quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
For those who would say that there are no significant differences between FemDom and maleDom, I have yet to encounter a complaint within FemDom from a male sub who didn't want more (instant) sexual access than what a Domme was prepared to give him, while it is more the opposite with male Dominants and female s-types.


That is EXACTLY the kind of insightful intelligent discourse this thread needs, to come to any sort of understanding of the difference in dynamics.



Ok...with all due respect to FO...and she knows from whence I come...

What, Mr. Crumpets, differentiates your search for a partner from mine?

What *is* it about a FemDom that you see that is *so* different from a male Dom?

I'm just not seeing it. Which isn't to say that it isn't there. I'm just reading all about "FemDom" and am seeing that others see it as a completely different animal, and I wonder where that comes from.

My man is my dominant. Period.

Yeah, I give him shit. On occasion, I'm the one who reassures him...because that's where my knowledge comes in...but I never doubt that he is the one leading the relationship.

Are we speaking strictly sexually here? If so, I call bullshit on that. There are many reasons for that...not the least of which is the implication that male-led relationships are "less than" due to the sexual aspect. What I'm getting from this conversation is that "FLRs" are *different*because there is some hurdle that male submissives need to get over that is inherently *different*. And, I wonder what that is...

If I were to speak about my relationship to "outsiders", the first thing that I would say is that my man puts me on a pedestal. I don't quite "get it", but it's there. That's just the way he is...and, at the end of the day, doesn't make me any more or less "submissive". What does make me "submissive", at least in my mind, is the way I treat him. I *defer* to him. And, no, it's not just the "sexual aspect". That's actually the least of it, as far as our relationship goes.

I know, for a fact, that I'm more like a lot of FemDoms than femsubs...

I've come to *want* that "pedestal thing". I've come to expect him to treat me like the woman that I am. That is...opening doors, taking my coat, that sort of thing. From what I have seen here, that's the difference spoken about a lot of times between women Doms and subs. Crap...my man had BETTER be treating me like some of the findoms around here are treated.

I am a submissive. Nothing more, nothing less. What I would like to know is how my male dominant is so different than a female dominant.


(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/20/2015 4:15:06 PM   
crumpets


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug
What *is* it about a FemDom that you see that is *so* different from a male Dom?


I'm not saying I understand, but I am seeking to understand.
As I read the responses, I throw out the datapoints that make no sense, to me, such as anyone declaring they're all the same or that they're all different (as those are merely copouts for saying that one has no clue what they're talking about).

That's why I brought up the tree and rock and novel example. If one actually understood the stuff, they'd have certain generalizations, which should work for the most part, but which wouldn't work in all cases. Yet, if one couldn't generalize about trees, rocks, or novels, (etc), then one clearly knows nothing about them.

Once my interest was piqued by the comments in this thread, s I read along, pondering those datapoints which actually made sense, I came to a belated realization that the fundamental difference may be that the entire dominance dynamic is coming from a different point in psychological/biological needs when it comes from females than when it comes from males.

However, I, myself, am still working on my ideas, and need input, mostly from female dominants, as to what they want and enjoy and don't want and don't enjoy, which is why I had asked the two questions above:
Q: What is the biggest complaint women have when seeking prospective male submissives?
Q: What do women praise most when they've found an excellent male submissive?

(in reply to littleladybug)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/20/2015 4:19:07 PM   
littleladybug


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets

As I read the responses, I throw out the datapoints that make no sense, to me, such as anyone declaring they're all the same or that they're all different (as those are merely copouts for saying that one has no clue what they're talking about).



Is it not possible, though, that there really is nothing different about them?

I'm not asking this to be snarky in any way....I'm just curious.

And, on another note..why are you so eager to find differences?

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Profile   Post #: 110
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/20/2015 4:30:17 PM   
LiveSpark


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_____________________________

I've been here as MontrealPhoenix, zephyr and
TheFireWithinMe.

I also have the sarcasm gene which is NOT to be taken seriously.

If you fall I'll always be there to catch you ~ Floor

(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/20/2015 4:34:09 PM   
littleladybug


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets


Once my interest was piqued by the comments in this thread, s I read along, pondering those datapoints which actually made sense, I came to a belated realization that the fundamental difference may be that the entire dominance dynamic is coming from a different point in psychological/biological needs when it comes from females than when it comes from males.



Datapoints that "actually made sense"...to you?

(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/20/2015 4:44:38 PM   
crumpets


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From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug
Is it not possible, though, that there really is nothing different about them?


Is it not possible, though, that there really is nothing different about every novel?
Is it not possible, though, that there really is nothing different about every tree?
Is it not possible, though, that there really is nothing different about every child?
etc.

I'll readily admit, anything is possible.
However, one can EASILY see clear differences (such as those which have been brought out in this thread), so, clearly, there ARE differences.

The dilemma isn't in recognizing that there are (obvious) differences; the enigma is in characterizing them accurately.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug
And, on another note..why are you so eager to find differences?


Clearly there are (huge) differences.
It's the characterization of those differences which is problematic.

As for my purpose, I'm INTERESTED in female led relationships. It should be patently obvious that I have absolutely no interest in male led relationships. I'm sure others may, so, they can help with the characterization. But it's not 'my' focus where I seek to understand.


quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug
Datapoints that "actually made sense"...to you?


Clearly, everyone has their own methods for sifting out the wheat from the chaff.
You have yours. I have mine.
Clearly, some of the comments in this thread come from less than stellar IQs, while other comments are prescient jewels of intelligence.

I prefer to ponder on the latter, and disregard the former.

(in reply to littleladybug)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/20/2015 4:48:31 PM   
littleladybug


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets

Clearly, some of the comments in this thread come from less than stellar IQs, while other comments are prescient jewels of intelligence.

I prefer to ponder on the latter, and disregard the former.




i.e., self-proclaimed FemDoms vs. the rest of us peons.

Gotcha.

(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/20/2015 4:50:21 PM   
LiveSpark


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug


quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets

Clearly, some of the comments in this thread come from less than stellar IQs, while other comments are prescient jewels of intelligence.

I prefer to ponder on the latter, and disregard the former.




i.e., self-proclaimed FemDoms vs. the rest of us peons.

Gotcha.


In other words:

People who agree with me geniuses
People who disagree not so much.

_____________________________

I've been here as MontrealPhoenix, zephyr and
TheFireWithinMe.

I also have the sarcasm gene which is NOT to be taken seriously.

If you fall I'll always be there to catch you ~ Floor

(in reply to littleladybug)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/20/2015 4:50:47 PM   
littleladybug


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets


Clearly there are (huge) differences.
It's the characterization of those differences which is problematic.



Seriously, WHAT are the differences that you see?

Here's what I see in my world--

Man likes woman.
Man woos woman.
Intimacy ensues.
They live happily ever after.


How does your view of life differ from that?

(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/20/2015 5:05:07 PM   
crumpets


Posts: 1614
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From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
In other words:
People who agree with me geniuses
People who disagree not so much.


That brought a smile to my lips, as I probably explained the thrown-away datapoints a bit too honestly.
I should have used more tact in explaining how I choose datapoints to disregard.

Face it, a lot of what is written on these boards comes from people who probably have never solved a difficult engineering, or mathematical, or sociological, or scientific (etc) problem. I'm sure some of you, like I, have many papers in the scientific journals. Sure, they're written totally differently, in that they take years to compile, and they are specific in that the abstract is written in precise objective terms, while the conclusion is careful to be FULLY backed up by the (usually copious) references, and the body of the paper is consists of a series of documented facts. There is almost always a mess of detail, particularly in the biological scientific papers, some of which conflicts, most of which is incomplete, yet - were we to simply say "all bacteria are the same", we'd have no concept of the (clearly huge) differences between the pneumococci and the acid-fast micobacteria and the spiral-shaped treponemes.

Sure, to some, all bacteria are the same.
But they're not.
If I couldn't summarize the major (obvious) differences, then that would merely mean I didn't understand the subject matter.

And, if someone said to me, "all bacteria are the same", that patently untrue statement would make me ponder whether it's worth my while to edify the person, or just throw out their clearly naive datapoint.

Same here, with female led relationships versus male led relationships.
I'm not saying I understand them well enough to clearly characterize them with any accuracy; but I, like everyone else, can see there are obvious differences that belie the statement that they can't be better characterized.

(in reply to LiveSpark)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/20/2015 5:07:38 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Nothing counterintuitive in that. On the other hand, maybe kinksters are kinksters because of something that 'bubbles up through' the stereotype confirmation.


Not for me, my kinkyness is very much the product of social cues I was exposed to at an impressionable age, more specifically this is how sexy was presented to me. How about you, where does your kinky come from?



Damned if I know. All I really know for certain is that it seems to fly against what is 'appropriate' for me. (And btw, Princess Leia in that outfit made go into a sub sweat all over. I didn't care that she was meant to be Jubba's slave at the time. ;-))


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/20/2015 5:10:09 PM   
littleladybug


Posts: 1082
Joined: 5/30/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets


Face it, a lot of what is written on these boards comes from people who probably have never solved a difficult engineering, or mathematical, or sociological, or scientific (etc) problem. I'm sure some of you, like I, have many papers in the scientific journals. Sure, they're written totally differently, in that they take years to compile, and they are specific in that the abstract is written in precise objective terms, while the conclusion is careful to be FULLY backed up by the (usually copious) references, and the body of the paper is consists of a series of documented facts. There is almost always a mess of detail, particularly in the biological scientific papers, some of which conflicts, most of which is incomplete, yet - were we to simply say "all bacteria are the same", we'd have no concept of the (clearly huge) differences between the pneumococci and the acid-fast micobacteria and the spiral-shaped treponemes.



Ok...there's a difference between how you see things and how someone who is not a "published scientist" sees them.

Why don't you educate us on what you see the differences are here. Yes, I understand that it will go over most people's heads..but can't you just humor us?

(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: What is DIFFERENT about femdom than other sexy rela... - 1/20/2015 5:22:33 PM   
crumpets


Posts: 1614
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From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug
How does your view of life differ from that?


I don't think I have ever said I UNDERSTOOD how the relationship are different.
I only said I can clearly see that they ARE almost certainly different.
But, they may be different in many ways that I don't see.

If was actually hoping that people here, who clearly know more than I do, would EDIFY ME, and not that I would teach them.
I don't think I'm in a position to make a clear tenable statement on what the differences are.

If I were to be backed against the wall, with a whip threatened against my bare back, I would, at this point, tentatively state that the difference between female led D/s relationships and male lead D/s relationships has probably more to do with the (huge) differences between female biology and male biology.

However, I'd need to TEST that hypothesis, and that test would need to be a valid test (which is not easy to synthesize), and, most importantly, it would need a statistically valid sample set.

For example, while a mere 100 respondents would likely not be statistically valid, let's use that number for argument's sake.
if I asked 100 women what they hated most about prospective male submissives, and if the answer came back that they thought most men were fetish-fueled porn-fed wife-cheating cock-pic orgasm-centric do-me submissives, uninterested in the woman's true relationship needs, that might be a valid datapoint.

If I then asked 100 men the same question, and the answer came back they predominantly felt the women were too fat, too picky, too time consuming, too teasing, too relationship oriented, and that they all wanted gifts and expensive "tribute" before hopping into the sack with them, then I'd have another set of data, which might be different from the first set.

I haven't ASKED that question of hundreds of people, but my expectation, based on what I see in this thread and from some of the private conversations (thanks FO!), is that the answers may very well fall along the lines that they have fallen along for thousands of years, and that the major difference may likely be the biological determinant, more so than the fetish determinant.

Anyway, you backed me into a corner so I am explaining what direction I THINK a study might go toward, were it to be commissioned.

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Profile   Post #: 120
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