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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 1/31/2015 11:32:31 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Status: offline 		Check it yourself.
Look at how many are Islamic compared to non-Islamic.

http://list25.com/25-worst-acts-terrorism-committed/


ETA: the actual numbers are pretty irrelevant, it's the results that are important.
There were only a couple of nuclear bombs out of the hundreds of thousands of bombs that were dropped all around the world from WW1 to the present day; yet there are really only 2 bombs that people remember.

< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 1/31/2015 11:35:38 AM >

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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 1/31/2015 11:38:20 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Of all the horrible acts in the world, you pick 25.

That's not a "study." It simply shows what we already know -- that when radicals are a small minority, they turn to terrorism as a tactic. Duh.


Again. . .

You have no support for "the majority of extremist actions come from the Islamic faith" nor for "that faith, in and of itself, is anathema to the general way of western life" beyond your perception and belief.

I've pointed out that 1.6 billion Muslims considerably dwarfs the terrible actions of the radicals. To help bring that number into context, I even shared that this is more than double the population of Europe. It's more than the population of China. The majority are living around the world in peace. I'm sorry that didn't make the news for you. But it's what is.

You simply repeated your belief. And added a little cherry picking--and we could cherry pick the nasty parts of the Bible too. I'll pass on both.

You have a sweeping dismissal and judgment of the faith of 1.6 billion people, 23% of the global population, ignoring the reality of their daily existence in favor of your prejudice, which you insist is fact, but can't factually support.

Anecdotes do not a majority make.


The entire population of all the middle east and north Africa, all faiths, is 336 million. That's only 20% of the global Islamic population. We could add all of Europe to the middle east and north Africa, all faiths, and we'd have 1 billion people--still only 60% of the global Islamic population. We could all the entire population of the US, all faiths, and we'd have 1.3 billion -- still only 80% of the global Islamic population.

Now go back and take ONLY the Muslims. Then only the radicals. It's a fraction of Islam, whatever numbers you want to assume.

The tail is wagging your dog.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/31/2015 11:51:46 AM >

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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 1/31/2015 11:40:36 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
ETA: the actual numbers are pretty irrelevant, it's the results that are important.
There were only a couple of nuclear bombs out of the hundreds of thousands of bombs that were dropped all around the world from WW1 to the present day; yet there are really only 2 bombs that people remember.

Both dropped by the US.....

Damn Islamic terrorist country!

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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 1/31/2015 11:57:07 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Of all the horrible acts in the world, you pick 25.

That's not a "study." It simply shows what we already know -- that when radicals are a small minority, they turn to terrorism as a tactic. Duh.


Again. . .

You have no support for "the majority of extremist actions come from the Islamic faith" nor for "that faith, in and of itself, is anathema to the general way of western life" beyond your perception and belief.


So.... 16 of the top 20 terrorist acts, all from Islamic groups doesn't show that the majority are Islamic??
My maths tells me that's a ratio of 4:1 and to me, at 80%, that would be a 'majority'.
I don't care about the other 1.6 billion others, those facts speak for themselves.
Or do you continue to dispute them??
[ETA: I didn't cherry pick any old 25 events, they are the top-most 25 events in recent history]

The same for the ancient crusades that no doubt someone will drag up.
How many actual crusaders compared to the millions of erstwhile peaceful christians were there?
The same applies to your 1.6 billion Muslims and 80% of the worst terrorism committed by Islamic faith groups.

As for the last part of your quote, how many Islamics approve of equality for women?
Scant few.
How many Islamics approve of gays and TG's? Even less!
How many Islamics still approve of honour killings? The majority.
How many Islamics prefer to live by their own religious laws and not those of the country they live in? The majority.

Can you actually refute these facts with citable and creditable links?
So far, all I have seen is your nonchelant dismissal and no discernible facts.


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 1/31/2015 12:03:34 PM >

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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 1/31/2015 12:04:19 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Wait.....I thought you were moving the goal posts to most damage?

....and in the process, proved that the US is the world's largest threat.

AND, again, you've restricted all the terrible events of the world to terrorism. No massive civil wars, no ethnic cleansing, just your own cherry-picked way of inflicting horror, and one picked frankly because it's the best choice OF A FACTION IN THE MINORITY.

As for your latest silly attempt at moving the goal posts again --
quote:

As for the last part of your quote, how many Islamics approve of equality for women?
Scant few.
How many Islamics approve of gays and TG's? Even less!
How many Islamics still approve of honour killings? The majority.
How many Islamics prefer to live by their own religious laws and not those of the country they live in? The majority.

...that's your unsupported opinion.

As you say...
quote:


Can you actually [SUPPORT] these facts with citable and creditable links?
So far, all I have seen is your nonchelant dismissal and no discernible facts.


That's 1.6 billion people you're claiming to speak for.

And the reason you can't support it is....you're making up your version of reality.

Because something as pervasive as you claim ought to have some sort of record.

...unless what you're claiming isn't so.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/31/2015 12:05:58 PM >

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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 1/31/2015 12:14:17 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Wait.....I thought you were moving the goal posts to most damage?

....and in the process, proved that the US is the world's largest threat.

No... you are twisting words that aren't even my own.
Not the most damage or even the most deaths.
Did you actually look at the link??

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
AND, again, you've restricted all the terrible events of the world to terrorism. No massive civil wars, no ethnic cleansing, just your own cherry-picked way of inflicting horror, and one picked frankly because it's the best choice OF A FACTION IN THE MINORITY.

Well.... isn't this thread about Islamics and what they did?
I stayed on topic.
If you want to derail it with other non-relevant minutae, go ahead.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
As for your latest silly attempt at moving the goal posts again --
quote:

As for the last part of your quote, how many Islamics approve of equality for women?
Scant few.
How many Islamics approve of gays and TG's? Even less!
How many Islamics still approve of honour killings? The majority.
How many Islamics prefer to live by their own religious laws and not those of the country they live in? The majority.

...that's your unsupported opinion.

How many Islamic people do you speak to every day?
You must live in a part of Utopia because I see this attitude every single day and all around me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
As you say...
quote:


Can you actually [SUPPORT] these facts with citable and creditable links?
So far, all I have seen is your nonchelant dismissal and no discernible facts.


That's 1.6 billion people you're claiming to speak for.

Actually, I specifically said that I am not speaking for the other 1.6 billion Islamics.

Do you actually have any creditable rebuttal?
Or do I say, just like you calmly waived away, that it is just your unsubstantiated opinion?
I did at least prove most of my point. You have yet to prove anything.


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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 1/31/2015 12:38:20 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Burden of proof is on the party making the claim, Sparky. And that's you, with some pretty sweeping claims (and a lot of creative tap dancing).

quote:

How many Islamic people do you speak to every day?
You must live in a part of Utopia because I see this attitude every single day and all around me.


We've played this silly game before. Hundreds, especially at university--Turkey, Pakistan, Palestine, Etirea, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Somalia, Bosnia, Bhutan, India, Kenya, Nepal, Nigeria, and many in the spirituality community from the good old USA. My primary business adviser is a Sufi.

You must live in hell, because I've met no one whatsoever who thinks that. We done with the anecdotes now?

Look, if you can establish this shit, fine--do it. But so far, you just keep twist to support your prejudice and frankly, bigotry. I don't think you really grasp the significance of 1.6 billion around the globe. And you cherry pick like crazy.

I get I'm not going to turn that made-up mind of yours.

WATCH OUT! THE MOOOSLEMS ARE COMING!!!!

And they're coming for you first, because they know you're on to them!

I think we're done here. It just gets sillier. Carry on with your blanket condemnation, and enjoy your living hell.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/31/2015 12:46:11 PM >

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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 1/31/2015 1:00:27 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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Status: offline 		I provided a link that tells you that 80% of the worst terrorist events were from Islamic groups.

Are you still refuting those facts?
If so, with what? Because I haven't seen any yet.

And yes, I DO see that attitude all day every day around me.
And no, it's not hell either.
But it IS more realistic than the obvious Utopia that you live in.
I see how the local kids behave in the local schools - everything from Infant schools to colleges.
I see how kids of Islamic faith are able to bend school rules that other kids are not allowed.
I also see it every day in the local shops and supermarkets.
I see that Islamists get away with carrying knives but I'm prohibited from carrying my Athame.
We hear of honour killings on our news quite regularly (though none locally to me).
We see legislation being enacted to enforce the banning of illegal Sharia Courts.
We hear of record calls to Islamic help lines because of unrest amongst Islamic groups; yet we don't hear a peep from any other group or of local clerics outing potential jihadists.

And again I'll ask - how many non-Islamic terrorist acts do you see anywhere compared to those from Islamic groups??
Beheadings from IS, kidnappings and brutal killings from Boku Haram and other groups.
Jihadists all over the Middle East and engaging in nasty stuff in the western world.

Do you see that from other groups in general (and yes, I know there are some)?
But I still posit that Islam is the major factor in world unrest and I blame the religion for breeding jihadists and for those following it for not doing more to out the trouble-makers.

Where are these 1.6 billion peaceful moderates then?? You'll notice that they conveniently stay quiet and generally keep their heads down.
Some speak up, but not even 0.1% make their voices heard.




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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 1/31/2015 1:21:15 PM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		FD, seriously. You should give up this religious determinism. What's said in the Koran isn't necessarily going to be what self-identified Muslims are, or do. It is utterly senseless.

Unless, of course, you're able to come up with an explanation - grounded in the writings of the Koran (for which you can provide excerpts to evidence your position, of course) - or, failing that, at least the pronouncements of their religious "leaders", why the majority of Muslims don't actually bomb, don't kill actually kill people and don't actually become terrorists.

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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 1/31/2015 1:39:10 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FD, seriously. You should give up this religious determinism. What's said in the Koran isn't necessarily going to be what self-identified Muslims are, or do. It is utterly senseless.

Unless, of course, you're able to come up with an explanation - grounded in the writings of the Koran (for which you can provide excerpts to evidence your position, of course) - or, failing that, at least the pronouncements of their religious "leaders", why the majority of Muslims don't actually bomb, don't kill actually kill people and don't actually become terrorists.

That may be true Peon.

But, FWIW, as kd pointed out, the actions (or inaction) of Islamics is just as barbaric in many ways as the terrorists' actions themselves.
Take the one-minute silence that many ordinary citizens of virtually all faiths and non-faiths observed throughout the country as a mark of respect for those that died in the wake of the Charlie Edbo attack.
I don't always agree with what the satirical media does, but I uphold the right for them to do it.
When there was a minute silence, almost everyone here, in the shops, the schools and even on the streets, stopped for just that one minute.
The only people I saw that didn't observe it were the local Muslims; both adult and children alike.
So while they might not actually become a suicide bomber, they are actually backing and supporting what the terrorists did.
If they were as 'moderate' as many people claim they are, why were there only a handful of Muslims (of that 1.6 billion worldwide) that voiced opposition to it and why didn't they join in the majority of others in that one minute silence??
The silence of the majority speaks volumes.

There are many other things within our society, the workplace, the schools, where Islam is bending the rules where others are not allowed to - purely because of that specific faith.


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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 1/31/2015 2:29:41 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Check it yourself.
Look at how many are Islamic compared to non-Islamic.

http://list25.com/25-worst-acts-terrorism-committed/


ETA: the actual numbers are pretty irrelevant, it's the results that are important.
There were only a couple of nuclear bombs out of the hundreds of thousands of bombs that were dropped all around the world from WW1 to the present day; yet there are really only 2 bombs that people remember.

The problem with your list is that anyone with a search engine and 5 seconds can see that your list is far from definitive and appears to be a wee dram biased.

Wanna talk terror? How about 300,000 civilians murdered (many raped first) in Nanking China in 1937?
That death toll probably exceeds everything you have on your list combined but it never made it.

Read about the sweep of Genghis Khan through Asia if you wish to read about terror attacks.

Heck, that military genius Joshua knew how to wage a terror war.

How about Vlad Dracul? If it weren't for his habit of impaling his enemies alive on stakes, he would probably be hailed as the savior of Europe because he stopped the Muslim invasion in the mid 15th century.
Pure terror and tens of thousands dead.

There are dozens if not hundreds of worse ones than your little article mentioned.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 1/31/2015 2:30:33 PM >

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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 1/31/2015 2:43:28 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		Its a fucking opinion piece, FD
nothing more


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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 1/31/2015 3:04:42 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Where are these 1.6 billion peaceful moderates then?



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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 1/31/2015 3:14:30 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Take the one-minute silence that many ordinary citizens of virtually all faiths and non-faiths observed throughout the country as a mark of respect for those that died in the wake of the Charlie Edbo attack.



Minute's silence? First I've heard if it, and no one else here has mentioned it either.

I'm fairly confident that no one in this part of the country cares about people drawing cartoons in France and other people killing them, and I'd be amazed were the sentiment any different the length and breadth of the country.

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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 1/31/2015 5:18:28 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

There's a reason I don't have one to share--I don't make up facts.

The "all Islam is against us and coming after us" is hysteria. 23% the world is Muslim -- if they were all radical and coming after you, they're be FAR more news about if for you to speculate over. That's more than twice the population of all Europe.

That there's radicalism, certainly. That's it's spread, of course.

But "the world is ending at the hands of Islam" is, along with what actual threat exists, the 21st century version of first "the reds are coming," then "the communists are coming."

And you couldn't get the hysteria believers to look at the reality of data then either.

But it's spreading hate from this side, and I'm not playing along. The world is full of peace-loving Islamists, just as the world is full of hateful Christians too, along with many wonderful people.

And all the rounds of jabs and quips and snark people can throw over the Internet isn't going to change that.

Just a few people's perceptions of it.


Where did you get the idea I am saying the end of the world is coming at the hands of Islam... I made no such comment...Let me be clear what I am saying. I believe, and the world situation today supports it in my opinion, there is a problem not just with radicals in Islam but also with the more moderate Muslims. Our basic values are in conflict and I do not believe there is an easy way to reconcile these differences.

I am forever hearing how all this trouble is just a very few radicals and the vast majority of Muslims are peace loving and should not be held accountable for the actions of the few. I do not believe this is true. I do agree that the vast majority want peace but more than just a few radicals support their actions. The happenings in the world are proof enough.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/31/2015 5:25:27 PM >

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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 1/31/2015 7:30:28 PM   
dcnovice


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Interesting read:

Freshman state Rep. Molly White, R-Belton, is not in Austin today to celebrate Texas Muslim Capitol Day. But she left instructions for the staff in her Capitol office on how to handle visitors who are, including asking them to declare allegiance to the United States.

"I did leave an Israeli flag on the reception desk in my office with instructions to staff to ask representatives from the Muslim community to renounce Islamic terrorist groups and publicly announce allegiance to America and our laws," she posted on Facebook. "We will see how long they stay in my office."

More at http://www.texastribune.org/2015/01/29/rep-staff-ask-muslim-visitors-pledge-allegiance/


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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 1/31/2015 7:50:24 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		It looks like my basic values are conflicting with some in Texas as well.

Butch

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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 2/1/2015 10:26:42 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FD, seriously. You should give up this religious determinism. What's said in the Koran isn't necessarily going to be what self-identified Muslims are, or do. It is utterly senseless.

Unless, of course, you're able to come up with an explanation - grounded in the writings of the Koran (for which you can provide excerpts to evidence your position, of course) - or, failing that, at least the pronouncements of their religious "leaders", why the majority of Muslims don't actually bomb, don't kill actually kill people and don't actually become terrorists.


What percent does it take to be an effective force?

The majority of Americans do not bomb or kill enemies.

In fact the majority of the Military does not bomb or kill enemies.

The majority of the Army does not bomb or kill enemies.

I am not even really sure that the majority of an infantry brigade bombs and kills enemies.

---

Now, I would fully expect that the Muslim fighting forces have much less bureaucracy (in fact we know that they do.) They also have different and less efficient supply chains. This means that their actual % of those that are engaged in "blow things up and kill people" is going to be far higher than ours. They also have no use for the "hearts and minds" teams.

----

But, just as we do not need every individual employed in "blow things up and kill people," why would you assume they would as well?

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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 2/1/2015 3:33:51 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

What percent does it take to be an effective force?


Well, what would 'effective' mean, for you? That's the key question.

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RE: The French Learn Their Lesson - 2/1/2015 6:16:03 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

What percent does it take to be an effective force?


Well, what would 'effective' mean, for you? That's the key question.

Well, for W., it was 20: 19 hijackers and Osama. Or, if you want to be generous, 3,000-4,000 members of al-Qaeda.

So of 1.6 billion global Muslims, that's 0.00025%, radicals to Muslims generally.

And not to forget--al-Qaeda attacks other Muslims as well. Saudi Arabia in particular.

But 19 hijackers made Bush. He campaigned against nation building. But while the early 20th century could get away with crap like Schneck by playing up the red scare, and while the later 20th century could spend trillions by playing up the communist scare, suddenly Bush/Cheney had an Islamic scare, and they ran with it--including lying about it to invade Iraq.

"War of Terror!" Sounds damn scary. And suddenly Americans are going along with Patriot Act domestic spying, with trillions spent invading countries, with the largest and most expensive new embassy in the world, a new Dept. of Homeland Theater bureaucracy at a cost of billions annually, and a ton of new time-wasting and invasive air travel procedures.

If instead, W. had gone on TV and said, "We will catch the criminals responsible for this heinous crime," the terrorists (er...criminals...) would have accomplished nothing beyond the destruction of that day, and Americans would have gone on with their lives.


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