quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko

Paternal and maternal duties cannot be called "sacrifice", it is duty to legacy and RESPONSIBILITY. Any parent with such perception would be someone I would put headphones in when around them to not hear the complaints or self compliments.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

everything we feel is to do with hormones, love is no different. it's exactly why some mothers feel no attachment to their babies, and it's exactly why women don't respond to every screaming child in the same way. it's exactly why what you find endearing in one person rubs you up the wrong way in another. otherwise you'd love everyone that showed you the exact same mush that makes you goo from one particular person.

needles

I disagree. There's no evidence at all that hormones control our feelings. In fact, the exact interplay of hormones is not even fully understood by scientists due to their complexity. I don't doubt that hormones *can* have an effect on feelings, but in terms of complex feelings like love, admiration and respect, I think the main factor is a feeling of approval or emulation.

I disagree at least from the point of view of romantic love which usually starts with sexual attraction, which is governed by a chemical reaction to a person.

That is why it's so difficult sometimes to extricate yourself from a bad relationship.

In my own case, my intellect and heart told me I was with someone, as GoddessManko put it, who did not speak my love language, yet my chemical/hormonal feelings for him sexually made me stay.

I also know my love feelings for him were not based on respect or admiration, which in itself tells a lot. Any other love relationship I had involved respect and admiration and if I sacrificed anything, it would be met with appreciation and reciprocity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

everything we feel is to do with hormones, love is no different. it's exactly why some mothers feel no attachment to their babies, and it's exactly why women don't respond to every screaming child in the same way. it's exactly why what you find endearing in one person rubs you up the wrong way in another. otherwise you'd love everyone that showed you the exact same mush that makes you goo from one particular person.

needles

I disagree. There's no evidence at all that hormones control our feelings. In fact, the exact interplay of hormones is not even fully understood by scientists due to their complexity. I don't doubt that hormones *can* have an effect on feelings, but in terms of complex feelings like love, admiration and respect, I think the main factor is a feeling of approval or emulation.

I disagree at least from the point of view of romantic love which usually starts with sexual attraction, which is governed by a chemical reaction to a person.

That is why it's so difficult sometimes to extricate yourself from a bad relationship.

In my own case, my intellect and heart told me I was with someone, as GoddessManko put it, who did not speak my love language, yet my chemical/hormonal feelings for him sexually made me stay.

I also know my love feelings for him were not based on respect or admiration, which in itself tells a lot. Any other love relationship I had involved respect and admiration and if I sacrificed anything, it would be met with appreciation and reciprocity.

With all due respect (and truly meaning no offence) your love is not my love. I met my partner online and our first contact was the written word. My first feelings for him were that he was funny, intelligent, interesting, etc. Sexual attraction, for me, is more about how good they are in bed - it's something that grows with time, rather than seeing someone and instantly wanting to sleep with them. I feel that it is not chemistry or hormonal but more a feeling of comfort and excitement - when you are happy to let someone see you at that level, where you are relaxed and where the sex is fun and intense at the same time. I don't think I have ever met a person and instantly thought that I wanted to sleep with them, no matter how objectively attractive they were. First I like them, then I desire them.

As regards getting out of bad relationships, for me it has never been about sex since problems with sex were often the reason I wanted to get out of the relationships. Usually the sticking factor was guilt on my part or being too stubborn to give up.

With my husband, I know exactly what it is that I love about him, and it's not hormonal, although I can't say that it's not hormonal for anyone else.

As regards Nookie's point about sacrifice, it's not that I never do anything for my partner, of course I do, it's just that I do it because I prefer it. It's like ordering take-away, I could have pizza or I could have chicken. If I order pizza, I'm not sacrificing the chicken, I'm actively choosing the pizza because that's what I prefer. So when I decide to stay home instead of going out with friends, it's not because I'm making some sort of noble sacrifice for him, it's because the thought of being snuggled with him watching the film seems better than any other options.

I think my sticking point on the discussion in general is that we all have to pick one thing over another thing, but when you call that selection process a sacrifice, it's like you don't actually prefer the thing you picked, you prefer something else but you feel obliged to choose this way. In that respect, nothing I do for him is a sacrifice because I wouldn't choose it any other way regardless of what it entails for me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
The original meaning of the word "sacrifice" is to make sacred. An unwilling sacrifice is no sacrifice, just as begrudgingly offering one's submission...is not submission either.

quote:

Nature is full of examples of self-sacrifice overriding the primal instinct for (solely) self-preservation. Insects instinctively protect their Queens with as much dedication as a dutiful soldier. All hatchling octopi are born motherless; the mother octopus dies of exhaustion digging her nest and guarding it with her life until her time comes. (The father octopus doesn't stick around.) I have been accused of anthropomorphizing, but I'll be damned if the maternal love instincts of an octopus will ever eclipse my own.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
I disagree at least from the point of view of romantic love which usually starts with sexual attraction, which is governed by a chemical reaction to a person.

That is why it's so difficult sometimes to extricate yourself from a bad relationship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


Of course love (sometimes) requires sacrifice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I've said this before: time is the only resource we can't replenish so I consider this the ultimate sacrifice one can make and still be alive at the end of it.

Having said that, let me go a step further: my son loved his country and gave the ultimate sacrifice.

Sometimes, love hurts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12
As regards Nookie's point about sacrifice, it's not that I never do anything for my partner, of course I do, it's just that I do it because I prefer it. It's like ordering take-away, I could have pizza or I could have chicken. If I order pizza, I'm not sacrificing the chicken, I'm actively choosing the pizza because that's what I prefer. So when I decide to stay home instead of going out with friends, it's not because I'm making some sort of noble sacrifice for him, it's because the thought of being snuggled with him watching the film seems better than any other options.

I think my sticking point on the discussion in general is that we all have to pick one thing over another thing, but when you call that selection process a sacrifice, it's like you don't actually prefer the thing you picked, you prefer something else but you feel obliged to choose this way. In that respect, nothing I do for him is a sacrifice because I wouldn't choose it any other way regardless of what it entails for me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

To me, above, when you say 'love hurts,' I think that is an example of what I am railing against in this thread.

I have lost loved ones. To me, it's not my love for them that hurts, it is the loss of them in my life. The expectation denied that I would have them longer, see them grow and share important events with them.

I think saying love hurts is putting a lot more into love, again, than one single word need to carry.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: usememistress775

I can't think of a single type of love that doesn't involve sacrifice or the willingness to sacrifice. The very idea of love to me is a willingness to do for someone else even at a detriment to myself. If that means that a father works a back breaking job to provide for his family giving up the well being of his body to ensure his family is taken care of. A parent who gives up a career they enjoy for their children and/or spouse. A friend taking time off work that they can ill afford to drive over and help a friend in need. A sub giving up control over everything to please their dom/domme. A dominant reigning in some of their wilder urges to look after the well being of their sub. A complete stranger stopping in the pouring rain to help someone with a flat tire. Each is an act of love between different types of people, each is a sacrifice of some kind. Without a sacrifice, love is just a paper title but with sacrifice love is the rod and crown.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

To me, above, when you say 'love hurts,' I think that is an example of what I am railing against in this thread.

I have lost loved ones. To me, it's not my love for them that hurts, it is the loss of them in my life. The expectation denied that I would have them longer, see them grow and share important events with them.

I think saying love hurts is putting a lot more into love, again, than one single word need to carry.

I might not have been specific enough. I recognize my pain is selfish; that I "suffer" because I will never speak with him, again or punch him in the arm or let him cry on my shoulder ...

I meant that love (of country) hurt him because of the SACRIFICE he chose to make. My son had opportunity after opportunity to stop doing what he was doing. he was offered positions (MOSs) that would have taken him out of harm's way and he didn't want them becuase he knew: "If not me, who? If not now, when?"
Michael

quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

I wonder what others think of this?

I had it said to me that it was my fault that a persons actions hurt me because they had told me they were a crappy person, it was my fault that I had feelings for them, so my fault those feelings were hurt.

in any relationship at all should it be expected that a person is to have no feelings what-so-ever for a person, and can you really expect to give yourself a 'get out of jail free' card by saying that you are a shit person, therefore you'll hurt that person at some point, and if you do it's that person's fault because they chose to be in your life? or is it really just a given that actually if we have people in our lives then we do form some sort of attachment to them, and thus you have to take some responsibility for not hurting those people?

needles

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidsel

But not sacrifices. Not the fundamentally important things. Love does not conquer all, in fact it can get you into a lot of trouble by way of hooking you up with a partner you are not suited to live with, and while you might be able to work it out, it isn't love that solves the problems.

quote:



Agreed. *smiles* Welcome to the forums!

quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

I wonder what others think of this?

I had it said to me that it was my fault that a persons actions hurt me because they had told me they were a crappy person, it was my fault that I had feelings for them, so my fault those feelings were hurt.

in any relationship at all should it be expected that a person is to have no feelings what-so-ever for a person, and can you really expect to give yourself a 'get out of jail free' card by saying that you are a shit person, therefore you'll hurt that person at some point, and if you do it's that person's fault because they chose to be in your life? or is it really just a given that actually if we have people in our lives then we do form some sort of attachment to them, and thus you have to take some responsibility for not hurting those people?

needles

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nookie
I hate to say it, but it is your fault... Or maybe not fault, because there is not reason to take blame for their shitty behavior, but it is your responsibility.

If I say to you, "I will hurt you," and you choose not to guard yourself against it, you are making that choice. Not me. In fact, you are quite possibly deciding the veracity (or not) of what I'm saying, instead of simply taking it at face value.

You see?

When my ex stole money from me, I shouldered the responsibility, because the first time he took $50 from my wallet to get drunk, and told me he felt he had a right, I could have put myself on guard right then and there, and opened my eyes to who he was becoming as a person.

I do not take blame for his behavior, but I do take responsibility for staying and accepting it long enough to lose more money (and self-respect).

Make sense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko

Paternal and maternal duties cannot be called "sacrifice", it is duty to legacy and RESPONSIBILITY. Any parent with such perception would be someone I would put headphones in when around them to not hear the complaints or self compliments.

Funny how those who have never been a parent or raised a family of their own, can presume to know the profound depth of sacrifice that parents are willing to go to in order to put their child's needs, desires, dreams and aspirations before their own. Such is the defining evidence of sacrifices made out of love, even on the most mundane level. Without this bedrock of familial "obligation," the flipside of which is appreciation, one can hardly learn how to internalize and externalize romantic love beyond self-centered lustful impulses.

Ideally, we come into this world bathed in parental love, and this is how we in turn learn to love others selflessly in return. Some parents fall short of this mark as loving caregivers, caring teachers and guides, but a critical step in mature self-ideation is to realize that our parents did the best they could with what they had to work with, within their own human limitations. To take off one's puerile glasses of self-entitled childishness and behold one another as living, breathing human beings and to embrace all of humanity for both its strengths and its weaknesses. Namaste.

I do agree that the ultimate sacrifice is made for love of country and for one's fellow man in order to make the world a better place in which to live in the present and for our future generations to come.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

The water is muddy here because "love" it is not one size fits all.

quote:

"Sacrifice" is going to be all about subjectivity and semantics, it all boils down to the "choices" you make, cuz really, you're not sacrificing, you are choosing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

I wonder what others think of this?

I had it said to me that it was my fault that a persons actions hurt me because they had told me they were a crappy person, it was my fault that I had feelings for them, so my fault those feelings were hurt.

in any relationship at all should it be expected that a person is to have no feelings what-so-ever for a person, and can you really expect to give yourself a 'get out of jail free' card by saying that you are a shit person, therefore you'll hurt that person at some point, and if you do it's that person's fault because they chose to be in your life? or is it really just a given that actually if we have people in our lives then we do form some sort of attachment to them, and thus you have to take some responsibility for not hurting those people?

needles

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nookie
I hate to say it, but it is your fault... Or maybe not fault, because there is not reason to take blame for their shitty behavior, but it is your responsibility.

If I say to you, "I will hurt you," and you choose not to guard yourself against it, you are making that choice. Not me. In fact, you are quite possibly deciding the veracity (or not) of what I'm saying, instead of simply taking it at face value.

You see?

When my ex stole money from me, I shouldered the responsibility, because the first time he took $50 from my wallet to get drunk, and told me he felt he had a right, I could have put myself on guard right then and there, and opened my eyes to who he was becoming as a person.

I do not take blame for his behavior, but I do take responsibility for staying and accepting it long enough to lose more money (and self-respect).

Make sense?

it does. I guess it also depends on the act though. there are some things you can protect against- like having your money stolen to an extent, and other things you can't.

I do think though that some people just refuse to take personal responsibility for hurting people for their own selfish ends.

this is why I have a 'one chance only' policy. fuck that up, you're gone.

needles

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

To me, above, when you say 'love hurts,' I think that is an example of what I am railing against in this thread.

I have lost loved ones. To me, it's not my love for them that hurts, it is the loss of them in my life. The expectation denied that I would have them longer, see them grow and share important events with them.

I think saying love hurts is putting a lot more into love, again, than one single word need to carry.

I might not have been specific enough. I recognize my pain is selfish; that I "suffer" because I will never speak with him, again or punch him in the arm or let him cry on my shoulder ...

I meant that love (of country) hurt him because of the SACRIFICE he chose to make. My son had opportunity after opportunity to stop doing what he was doing. he was offered positions (MOSs) that would have taken him out of harm's way and he didn't want them becuase he knew: "If not me, who? If not now, when?"
Michael

quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

I wonder what others think of this?

I had it said to me that it was my fault that a persons actions hurt me because they had told me they were a crappy person, it was my fault that I had feelings for them, so my fault those feelings were hurt.

in any relationship at all should it be expected that a person is to have no feelings what-so-ever for a person, and can you really expect to give yourself a 'get out of jail free' card by saying that you are a shit person, therefore you'll hurt that person at some point, and if you do it's that person's fault because they chose to be in your life? or is it really just a given that actually if we have people in our lives then we do form some sort of attachment to them, and thus you have to take some responsibility for not hurting those people?

needles

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
I hate to say it, but it is your fault... Or maybe not fault, because there is not reason to take blame for their shitty behavior, but it is your responsibility.

If I say to you, "I will hurt you," and you choose not to guard yourself against it, you are making that choice. Not me. In fact, you are quite possibly deciding the veracity (or not) of what I'm saying, instead of simply taking it at face value.

You see?

When my ex stole money from me, I shouldered the responsibility, because the first time he took $50 from my wallet to get drunk, and told me he felt he had a right, I could have put myself on guard right then and there, and opened my eyes to who he was becoming as a person.

I do not take blame for his behavior, but I do take responsibility for staying and accepting it long enough to lose more money (and self-respect).

Make sense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko

FieryOpal my father quit Oxford to raise me. You don't know me. What I do know is there are two things he never did. Complain and self compliment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

The water is muddy here because "love" it is not one size fits all. It is a multifaceted creature with varying degrees and intensity. Some people are more capable than others, some are more expressive, and some have a twinge of attachment and that is the best they can do.

Some people are more faceted than others, some are more intense, and some just make you wonder everyday if you have any significance to them at all or if you are just a blip on their radar until better comes along.
<snip>

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidsel

I think sacrifices are generally a very bad idea except during exceptional circumstances, such as war, catastrophes, the end of the world and the like..also perhaps if you burn for a specific cause.

But as a condition for or definition of love I disagree. Making sacrifices means making yourself unhappy and resentful in the end and will eventually break the relationship, it means you are not well suited to each other. If it doesn't make you resentful, then it isn't a sacrifice but something you choose because it is ok.

In all relationships there must be some bending towards each other, some giving a bit to make things work. And you always give up something to get something else. If you get into a mono relationship you cannot play the field, you choose one thing over the other. If you get kids, you will never have as much money or free time again, but you will have a lot of other things and so on.

But not sacrifices. Not the fundamentally important things. Love does not conquer all, in fact it can get you into a lot of trouble by way of hooking you up with a partner you are not suited to live with, and while you might be able to work it out, it isn't love that solves the problems.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

The water is muddy here because "love" it is not one size fits all. It is a multifaceted creature with varying degrees and intensity. Some people are more capable than others, some are more expressive, and some have a twinge of attachment and that is the best they can do.

Some people are more faceted than others, some are more intense, and some just make you wonder everyday if you have any significance to them at all or if you are just a blip on their radar until better comes along.
<snip>

What it boils down to is loyalty and devotion. At what price do we show the extent of our loyalty and devotion to those whom we profess to love?

It's ironic in a sense how as Dominants, we expect a high degree of loyalty and devotion from our submissives, which may or may not be reciprocated in kind. I hear Dominants speak of how they count *proof* of submission by the degree of willingness to which their sub "endures" making sacrifices for their sake, and yet these same Dominants don't believe in making sacrifices as *proof* of their own love and devotion toward their subs. How fair is that? I take no issue with whatever personal philosophy anybody espouses, as long as it is consistent and doesn't smack of hypocrisy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

To me, the issue isn't so much of *proving* how much we love others by what sacrifices we make, but of making our loved ones our highest priority in life.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

The water is muddy here because "love" it is not one size fits all. It is a multifaceted creature with varying degrees and intensity. Some people are more capable than others, some are more expressive, and some have a twinge of attachment and that is the best they can do.

Some people are more faceted than others, some are more intense, and some just make you wonder everyday if you have any significance to them at all or if you are just a blip on their radar until better comes along. You've taken a topic and condensed it into a single serving and that is why it looks like Pandora's box opened and going crazy.

Facets of love apply to how we love our mate(s), love our siblings (which is usually different with each sibling), how we love our parents, our children, our pets, our neighbor, etc. The intensity and degree varies with each and every facet. Some people do not have facets, for them it is a coin; I love them, I love them not.

The expression of love varies with each person, the intensity, and to what degree your love for them will take you. Everyone in my life that I have love for receives 100% love from me, however the intensity and the degree varies. There is a very, very, very short list of people that will ever know 100% love from me, 100% intensity, and a 100% degree of "I can and will do anything within my power for them".

I love very intensely and it is mirrored by my ability to hate... I love to the bone and hate to the marrow. It is a double edged sword, I just cannot have one without the other. Because I have such an intense passion for love and hate equally, I do not allow many people into my life. Because my capacity to hate is as intense as my capacity to love, those people that fuck up with me get shut out of my life completely, forever, for good, gone and done. I loath the feeling of hatred as much as love that feeling of love... I want to keep that love around me and do not ever want to feel that hate. For my own well being I shut people out of my life for good once they have deemed themselves unworthy.

"Sacrifice" is going to be all about subjectivity and semantics, it all boils down to the "choices" you make, cuz really, you're not sacrificing, you are choosing.

Jus sayin