SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (Full Version)

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vincentML -> SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/1/2015 7:46:20 PM)

Senator John McCain called CODEPINK protesters “LOW LIFE SCUM” for protesting the appearance of former Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger, before a Senate Committee hearing. McCain called the demonstration “disgraceful, outrageous and despicable,” accused the protesters of “physically intimidating” the 91 year old Kissinger.

CODEPINK replies in this opinion piece that Kissinger:
1. facilitated the September 11, 1973 coup against Chile’s democratically elected President Salvador Allende and brought the ruthless Augusto Pinochet to power.
2. and President Ford gave their approval and U.S Weapons to Indonesia to spur the invasion against East Timor in 1975.
3. gave the order for the secret bombing of Cambodia and prolonged our war in Vietnam.

According to CODEPINK:

if Senator McCain was really concerned about physical intimidation, perhaps he should have conjured up the memory of the gentle Chilean singer/songwriter Victor Jara. After Kissinger facilitated the September 11, 1973 coup, Victor Jara and 5,000 others were rounded up in Chile’s National Stadium. Jara’s hands were smashed and his nails torn off; the sadistic guards then ordered him to play his guitar. Jara was later found dumped on the street, his dead body riddled with gunshot wounds and signs of torture.

According to CODEPINK THE Indonesia invasion of East Timor:

led to a 25-year occupation in which over 100,000 soldiers and civilians were killed or starved to death. The UN's Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor (CAVR) stated that U.S. "political and military support were fundamental to the Indonesian invasion and occupation" of East Timor.

If McCain could stomach it, he could have read the report by the UN Commission on Human Rights describing the horrific consequences of that invasion. It includes gang rape of female detainees following periods of prolonged sexual torture; placing women in tanks of water for prolonged periods, including submerging their heads, before being raped; the use of snakes to instill terror during sexual torture; and the mutilation of women’s sexual organs, including insertion of batteries into vaginas and burning nipples and genitals with cigarettes.


According to CODEPINK:

From 1969 through 1973, it was Kissinger, along with President Nixon, who oversaw the slaughter in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos—killing perhaps one million during this period. He gave the order for the secret bombing of Cambodia. Kissinger is heard on tape saying, “[Nixon] wants a massive bombing campaign in Cambodia. He doesn't want to hear anything about it. It's an order, to be done. Anything that flies or anything that moves.”

AND THEN:

French Judge Roger Le Loire served Kissinger with summons in 2001 at the Ritz Hotel in Paris. Kissinger fled the country. More indictments followed from Spain, Argentina, Uruguay—even a civil suit in Washington DC.

My questions are:

1. Is John McCain, A Member of the U.S. Senate, a scurrilous scoundrel for treating protesting citizens with such foul and undignified expletives? Or is he a champion of a great warrior nation? Was John justified?

2. Should Henry Kissinger be tried before the ICC for war crimes, despite the technicality that we are not parties to the ICC? Big technicality, I know. Should we join that treaty?

3. Should politicians who have taken us to war or committed war crimes against foreign peoples in our name be held accountable for their deeds?

4. Obviously a standing American President is not going to indict his predecessors, so should the United States have an independent war crimes tribunal as a fourth branch of government charged with holding our leaders accountable for their actions and demanding justification after they leave office?

5. Is there any solution to this endless chain of U.S. foreign interventions?

6. Has democracy failed? The only post WW2 president who did not aggressively act against a foreign nation with unprovoked animus was Jimmy Carter. Jimmy gave us our only four years of peace since 1945. What does that say about our nation?


FULL ARTICLE


yea Pats!!




Moderator3 -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/1/2015 8:22:44 PM)

Before this thread gets started, I am asking members to see my post in the thread, from moderators. Consider what I have said there. Before I allow the section and choice for members to be lost, I will try to temper things if members cannot and that could mean some bans for harassment, running from thread to thread and doing word combat with the same people, etc.

I am sorry that I am forced to do this. I wanted lighter moderation across the forum and was the one that asked for the Feisty sections. I guess it is only right that I be the one to determine whether it works or not and take it to those I answer to.

Remember, you can start another thread on this topic in Current Affairs.




DaddySatyr -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/1/2015 8:40:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

My questions are:

1. Is John McCain, A Member of the U.S. Senate, a scurrilous scoundrel for treating protesting citizens with such foul and undignified expletives? Or is he a champion of a great warrior nation? Was John justified?



First: Howdy, Vincent!

I don't think your answers are given "fairly". I think there's some middle ground.

I don't believe that Sen. McCain being an elected official negates his right to speak his mind. I do think that his being an elected official amplifies his voice (he's in the spotlight) and allows for possible consequences for him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

2. Should Henry Kissinger be tried before the ICC for war crimes, despite the technicality that we are not parties to the ICC? Big technicality, I know. Should we join that treaty?



I don't think we should join the treaty and never have. I don't think we should be members of the UN because ... never mind. I'll get to that in a later question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

3. Should politicians who have taken us to war or committed war crimes against foreign peoples in our name be held accountable for their deeds?



"All wars are crimes"

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

4. Obviously a standing American President is not going to indict his predecessors, so should the United States have an independent war crimes tribunal as a fourth branch of government charged with holding our leaders accountable for their actions and demanding justification after they leave office?



Another branch of government? Not just "No" but "HELL NO!!!" We have courts martial to handle accusations of war crimes.



quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

5. Is there any solution to this endless chain of U.S. foreign interventions?



We can only wish. I think the water is always very muddy, when we try to distinguish between national interests and intervention in the internal affairs of another sovereign nation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

6. Has democracy failed? The only post WW2 president who did not aggressively act against a foreign nation with unprovoked animus was Jimmy Carter. Jimmy gave us our only four years of peace since 1945. What does that say about our nation?



I think, a good portion of our actions since WW2 were arrived at because of our membership in the UN. I think that we should be a sovereign nation, beholden only to our own national interests and decide for ourselves if military action is necessary.



Michael




Aylee -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/1/2015 10:55:20 PM)

Foul and undignified explicatives?

You are referring to a group that dresses up like vulvas. After that, I don't think that you CAN do anything foul and undignified to them.

And why are you holding all of these other cultures to Western standards of behavior? That is kind of imperialistic, don't ya think?




tweakabelle -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/1/2015 11:33:57 PM)

If any one is thinking that the bombing of Laos and Cambodia is in the past and should be left there, can I remind them that to this day, circa a thousand Laotians and Cambodians still die every year from unexploded ordinance (UXO) left over from Kissinger's days. Thousands more receive horrible injuries. Massive areas of agricultural land cannot be farmed. .

Tourists are advised not to leave clearly established or marked trails for fear of UXO. I know this to be true as I saw the signs myself when I was there. It's really quite startling to be out in the middle of idyllic countryside and suddenly be confronted by signs advising people of the presence of UXO. It is harrowing to see the horribly mutilated and maimed survivors of UXO incidents who are reduced to begging as the poor economies of Laos and Cambodia cannot care for them adequately. But my discomfort is nothing compared to the stresses imposed on the populations there who have to live with these hidden horrors 24/7/365. Kissinger's 'calling cards' are still buried in the country side by the million of units of UXO. I am unaware if the US contributes or funds the UXO clearance programs, but I do know they are massively underfunded. $10 million pa would make all the difference ....

So while Kissinger is 91 and frail, he is still alive, has all his limbs and lives an affluent lifestyle with his reputation intact (well relatively speaking it is intact as he hasn't been tried or convicted). Unlike his victims who are either dead or maimed, begging in poverty-stricken towns and cities of rural Laos and Cambodia. And the number of his victims is increasing every year ...... The effects of his crimes are felt every day in Laos and Cambodia, so why should he remain free while the numbers of his victims grows daily?




Aylee -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 9:37:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If any one is thinking that the bombing of Laos and Cambodia is in the past and should be left there, can I remind them that to this day, circa a thousand Laotians and Cambodians still die every year from unexploded ordinance (UXO) left over from Kissinger's days. Thousands more receive horrible injuries. Massive areas of agricultural land cannot be farmed. .

Tourists are advised not to leave clearly established or marked trails for fear of UXO. I know this to be true as I saw the signs myself when I was there. It's really quite startling to be out in the middle of idyllic countryside and suddenly be confronted by signs advising people of the presence of UXO. It is harrowing to see the horribly mutilated and maimed survivors of UXO incidents who are reduced to begging as the poor economies of Laos and Cambodia cannot care for them adequately. But my discomfort is nothing compared to the stresses imposed on the populations there who have to live with these hidden horrors 24/7/365. Kissinger's 'calling cards' are still buried in the country side by the million of units of UXO. I am unaware if the US contributes or funds the UXO clearance programs, but I do know they are massively underfunded. $10 million pa would make all the difference ....

So while Kissinger is 91 and frail, he is still alive, has all his limbs and lives an affluent lifestyle with his reputation intact (well relatively speaking it is intact as he hasn't been tried or convicted). Unlike his victims who are either dead or maimed, begging in poverty-stricken towns and cities of rural Laos and Cambodia. And the number of his victims is increasing every year ...... The effects of his crimes are felt every day in Laos and Cambodia, so why should he remain free while the numbers of his victims grows daily?


Gallantry in war just does not last long. The goal is actually subtraction. Because if you kill enough of them, the other side stops fighting. This current method of prolonging conflicts is cruel.

The unwashed masses eventually get sick of the lawyers in war. And then things are . . . less than pretty.

So these constant calls for this or that person to be tried as a war criminal? Yeah. . . that just makes war that much worse.




Musicmystery -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 9:42:25 AM)

So...when were we at war with Laos and Cambodia again?




Sanity -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 9:47:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So...when were we at war with Laos and Cambodia again?


Where is Obama acting as judge, jury and executioner through drone assassinations again

What this is really about is that Kissinger is Jewish, and on top of that doesnt subscribe to the proper groupthink




Musicmystery -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 9:48:51 AM)

"It...it...it's -- it's all Obama's fault! That's why Kissinger ordered secret bombings!!!! Obama made him do it to support is Islamic/Socialist/Anti-semiticism!!!"




kdsub -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 10:07:06 AM)

Vincent I am with you...except when it comes to the ICC... they are a joke and only represent the powerful and victorious. I do not know the real circumstances you speak of but it really pisses me off when our elected representatives lies to us... and use our power in a way that goes against our collective values.

I don't think another branch of government is needed but I do believe we should hold our government libel for its actions and WE should be the ones to prosecute if necessary.

Sadly this will not happen on an international or national stage. We will just have to accept the fact that out country has much to be ashamed for and try to assure it does not happen in the future... An impossible task I'm afraid.

Butch




vincentML -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 11:48:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Foul and undignified explicatives?

You are referring to a group that dresses up like vulvas. After that, I don't think that you CAN do anything foul and undignified to them.

And why are you holding all of these other cultures to Western standards of behavior? That is kind of imperialistic, don't ya think?

John McCain is a Senator. We have a right to demand a higher standard of dignified behavior from our elected officials. CODEPINK dressing as vulvas is no excuse for a Senator to act like an angry impotent Dick. All he had to do was call for the Palace guards to quell the disturbance and restrain his need to express contempt for American citizens.

I don't understand your last comment about other cultures. Please clarify.




vincentML -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 11:57:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So...when were we at war with Laos and Cambodia again?

Thank you, Muse. Somehow, I missed our war with Chile and East Timor as well.




vincentML -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 12:04:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

"It...it...it's -- it's all Obama's fault! That's why Kissinger ordered secret bombings!!!! Obama made him do it to support is Islamic/Socialist/Anti-semiticism!!!"


Obama's actions in Libya, Afghanistan, and Syria should be subject to some sort of judicial scrutiny as well. I would also include the Congressional Leadership in a Judicial Review. Our government has failed miserably in keeping us out of foreign fire fights.




Aylee -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 12:07:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Foul and undignified explicatives?

You are referring to a group that dresses up like vulvas. After that, I don't think that you CAN do anything foul and undignified to them.

And why are you holding all of these other cultures to Western standards of behavior? That is kind of imperialistic, don't ya think?

John McCain is a Senator. We have a right to demand a higher standard of dignified behavior from our elected officials. CODEPINK dressing as vulvas is no excuse for a Senator to act like an angry impotent Dick. All he had to do was call for the Palace guards to quell the disturbance and restrain his need to express contempt for American citizens.

I don't understand your last comment about other cultures. Please clarify.


Wait. . . McCain should be respectful to a group of harridan's threatening a (n invited) 91 year old man with a broken shoulder? Why? Him being elected does not mean that those women were NOT low life scum.

Other cultures. . . you posted several stories about broken hands and nails being pulled out and such and they happened in other countries by other cultures. Who are you to be upset about another cultures practices. Such actions may not fit into our Western mores but it is imperialistic of you to try and may them fit into our world view, don't ya think?

I mean, after all, you are hunky-dory with a 91 year old man with a broken shoulder being threatened. What do you think the vulva ladies would do to Kissinger if they actually got the chance?




vincentML -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 12:15:59 PM)

quote:

Vincent I am with you...except when it comes to the ICC... they are a joke and only represent the powerful and victorious.


Butch, I don't know why or if the ICC is ineffectual. Can you elaborate? Is it underfunded maybe? And would its efficacy improve if the United States were a member?

quote:

I don't think another branch of government is needed but I do believe we should hold our government libel for its actions and WE should be the ones to prosecute if necessary.

Short of armed rebellion WE lack any venue for prosecuting and enforcement of judgment. Time for some thinking outside the box on how we can stop these acts of destruction on foreign soils by "America the Beautiful.'




vincentML -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 12:33:42 PM)

quote:

Wait. . . McCain should be respectful to a group of harridan's threatening a (n invited) 91 year old man with a broken shoulder? Why? Him being elected does not mean that those women were NOT low life scum.

The Constitution provides for peaceful assembly. If not peaceful the assembled are rightfully escorted out. As a Senator in situ McCain is protected from libelous and defamatory speech. Thus, he is cowardly as well.

Why is Kissinger's age an issue? Germany and Israel are still hunting Nazi war criminals from the 1940s.

You miss the point about these other cultures. You seem to assume we are morally superior and would not engage in torture (oops, we did recently, didn't we?) The point of this thread is that the hounds of horror were unleashed by that wretched man who now seems to have your sympathy because of his age. Would you feel the same for Pol Pot if he were still alive and invited to testify before a U.S. Senate Hearing? The aging of the monster does not lessen the monstrosities he instigated. The salient difference is that Kissinger is visible (yet) but his victims are not, so easy to shed any empathy for those who suffered.




Aylee -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 12:44:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Wait. . . McCain should be respectful to a group of harridan's threatening a (n invited) 91 year old man with a broken shoulder? Why? Him being elected does not mean that those women were NOT low life scum.

The Constitution provides for peaceful assembly. If not peaceful the assembled are rightfully escorted out. As a Senator in situ McCain is protected from libelous and defamatory speech. Thus, he is cowardly as well.

Why is Kissinger's age an issue? Germany and Israel are still hunting Nazi war criminals from the 1940s.

You miss the point about these other cultures. You seem to assume we are morally superior and would not engage in torture (oops, we did recently, didn't we?) The point of this thread is that the hounds of horror were unleashed by that wretched man who now seems to have your sympathy because of his age. Would you feel the same for Pol Pot if he were still alive and invited to testify before a U.S. Senate Hearing? The aging of the monster does not lessen the monstrosities he instigated. The salient difference is that Kissinger is visible (yet) but his victims are not, so easy to shed any empathy for those who suffered.


I believe that it is unethical to physically threaten old men with broken bones.

Pol Pot would be 90. If he was in our custody, yes it would be wrong to physically threaten him or allow him to be threatened. Execution would be fine.

You think that it took Kissinger to whip up blood lust in humans? That is a laugh. I may have mentioned this before. . . Terror IS a tactic. While it is better to be feared and loved if you have to choose only one, choose to be feared. I read something like that in a book once. Some Nicky guy.




DaddySatyr -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 12:48:14 PM)


Plus, just a little interjection: McCain (or any congressman/senator) is only immune from libel/slander while he's actually on the floor.



Michael




kdsub -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 1:25:38 PM)

Vincent the only elaboration you need is history...Without the US there is no power in their judgments...If there should be a hint of a judgement directly against a US President or legislature I believe a threat behind the scenes of abandonment of the UN and the US financing would end any such nonsense...even if valid.

Butch




MrRodgers -> RE: SHOULD HENRY KISSINGER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WAR CRIMES? (2/2/2015 4:26:55 PM)

Yes




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