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RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 1:48:41 PM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		that's a good question---don't know the answer to that...

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 1:53:08 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

im not sure where people get the idea of that if we just make guns illegal across the board, that the criminals wont still have them.


And what you and Bama fail to understand, if guns are illegal in public, the baddies aren't likely to have them either.
No, that doesn't mean none of them will.
It is never going to be a 100% all-or-nothing situation.
Just like speed restriction signs won't stop mad people from speeding; but it does generally keep the speed down and save lives.

Your one-track myopic thinking doesn't work like that in real life.
All other countries that have done this have also proven that even the criminals generally don't carry guns either.
Of course there will always be those odd few, but generally they don't.
But you only ever see the one side of that myth "if we don't have them, the criminals will".


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 1:58:53 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
You see, Amanda had a concealed weapons permit. She owned a handgun. Amanda was trained to defend herself. But she didn’t have her gun with her the night of the attack because of a Nevada law that outlaws concealed weapons on college campuses without written permission from the college president.


so she knew she could conceal carry her gun if she got the written permission from the college prez.. if she was concerned about her safety on campus, did she ever try to get this permission? If a person doesn't even try, well.. it was her option and her choice not to.. Now if she did try to get this permission and was turned down, that would be a different story..

I think most campuses are gun free zones.

But the question would be.... what legal right do the campuses have to deny legal owners with legit licenses the right to carry under the 2nd??
And what about other gun free zones? How does that work from a legal sense?

We always hear that it is a fundamental right to carry and bear arms and in every gun thread we hear that the right cannot be removed from legal citizens.
So how can they enforce a gun free zone.... legally, in direct breach of the constitution??

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 2:27:55 PM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		so just to be clear---in your world, the only people who get to have guns then would be the military and maybe law enforcement?

love this: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/05/robert-farago/688-armed-robberies-in-gun-free-uk-in-three-years-at-betting-shops/

"I don’t mean to pick on my former home but . . . “From April 2008 to June 2011, there were 688 robberies at London betting shops where a gun was used, according to the Metropolitan Police.” There it is in black and white via guardian.co.uk: the country held up as the exemplar for American gun control is prey to hundreds of armed robberies."

even if what you are suggesting could remotely be true (lots fewer bad guys with guns), women are still at a disadvantage compared to male attackers. guns equalize that. so....it's probably better they bring a gun to a knife fight wouldn't you think?



< Message edited by bounty44 -- 2/22/2015 2:34:13 PM >

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 2:31:02 PM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		I can't watch video where im at but I am guessing/hoping this is somehow relevant:

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=43049

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 2:36:19 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
You see, Amanda had a concealed weapons permit. She owned a handgun. Amanda was trained to defend herself. But she didn’t have her gun with her the night of the attack because of a Nevada law that outlaws concealed weapons on college campuses without written permission from the college president.


so she knew she could conceal carry her gun if she got the written permission from the college prez.. if she was concerned about her safety on campus, did she ever try to get this permission? If a person doesn't even try, well.. it was her option and her choice not to.. Now if she did try to get this permission and was turned down, that would be a different story..

I think most campuses are gun free zones.

But the question would be.... what legal right do the campuses have to deny legal owners with legit licenses the right to carry under the 2nd??
And what about other gun free zones? How does that work from a legal sense?

We always hear that it is a fundamental right to carry and bear arms and in every gun thread we hear that the right cannot be removed from legal citizens.
So how can they enforce a gun free zone.... legally, in direct breach of the constitution??

but if some people can get written permission to conceal carry/carry on campus then it's not a gun free zone.. at least not imo..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 2:37:53 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

so just to be clear---in your world, the only people who get to have guns then would be the military and maybe law enforcement?

love this: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/05/robert-farago/688-armed-robberies-in-gun-free-uk-in-three-years-at-betting-shops/

"I don’t mean to pick on my former home but . . . “From April 2008 to June 2011, there were 688 robberies at London betting shops where a gun was used, according to the Metropolitan Police.” There it is in black and white via guardian.co.uk: the country held up as the exemplar for American gun control is prey to hundreds of armed robberies."

even if what you are suggesting could remotely be true (lots fewer bad guys with guns), women are still at a disadvantage compared to male attackers. guns equalize that. so....it's probably better they bring a gun to a knife fight wouldn't you think?



I'm not advocating to completely ban guns.... just don't allow them in public.

And from your quote: "“From April 2008 to June 2011, there were 688 robberies at London betting shops where a gun was used".
688 robberies in what.... just over 3 YEARS??!?
And how many guns deaths in those robberies, huh???

And now compare that to over 32,000 gun deaths per year alone in the US.
No fucking contest!


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 2/22/2015 2:40:25 PM >

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 2:40:02 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
but if some people can get written permission to conceal carry/carry on campus then it's not a gun free zone.. at least not imo..

And how many have been successful in achieving that??
I'm guessing it's a pretty low number.

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 2:50:41 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
but if some people can get written permission to conceal carry/carry on campus then it's not a gun free zone.. at least not imo..

And how many have been successful in achieving that??
I'm guessing it's a pretty low number.

I am guessing that few people try to get permission.. so if very few people try, then yeah, it will be a low number..

what about tasers? are those in the same category as guns or are women/people allowed to carry those? and pepper spray? a gun isn't the only way to defend oneself..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 2/22/2015 2:54:45 PM >

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As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 3:31:01 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
....lets see--you are standing there, you suspect an attack is about to come---which would you rather have? pepper spray, a bat, or a gun? regardless of what you'd choose, some will choose the latter. who are you to take it away from them?

And there is the flaw in your argument.
The point in lucy's post is that for a lot of these incidents, the women (or men) are not aware that there is an imminent attack and therefore a gun is useless.
Of course, if you are aware of such a danger, there are still many other ways to avoid getting attacked.
And again, that doesn't mean a gun either.
See what I mean?? first reaction is..... gun!! And that really shouldn't be the case.
Fucking paranoid the lot of you.
There's too many guns and that's why you need a gun for protection.

I dunno about the US but the pepper spray over here damned near cripples a person for 2 minutes and more.
Maybe yours is watered down??
Even in police training where they put you through a pepper attack, there's not many that can stay standing after being sprayed from a distance well beyond arms reach.

Is pepper spray even legal in England?
If they have too much surprise for a gun to work, you really think a bat will?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 3:41:10 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

im not sure where people get the idea of that if we just make guns illegal across the board, that the criminals wont still have them.


And what you and Bama fail to understand, if guns are illegal in public, the baddies aren't likely to have them either.
No, that doesn't mean none of them will.
It is never going to be a 100% all-or-nothing situation.
Just like speed restriction signs won't stop mad people from speeding; but it does generally keep the speed down and save lives.

Your one-track myopic thinking doesn't work like that in real life.
All other countries that have done this have also proven that even the criminals generally don't carry guns either.
Of course there will always be those odd few, but generally they don't.
But you only ever see the one side of that myth "if we don't have them, the criminals will".


If we don't have them then in a decade or so the bad guys might not, so you want us to sacrifice a decade of people where only the bad guys have guns. You also ignore the fact that in most cases the bad guy will be bigger and stronger (they won't choose victims who are bigger and stronger than them) so you assure the bad guys of having the advantage.
It is not all or nothing. You just ignore what we actually say. Example when I told you about talking to a guy, telling him repeatedly that he was in the wrong place and to leave. After he ignored all that I placed my hand on my gun, didn't draw it just put my hand on it, and you decried this as resorting to a gun first without thinking about anything else.
This is why you see our view as you do, you read what you expected, not what we actually say.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 3:46:44 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
but if some people can get written permission to conceal carry/carry on campus then it's not a gun free zone.. at least not imo..

And how many have been successful in achieving that??
I'm guessing it's a pretty low number.

I am guessing that few people try to get permission.. so if very few people try, then yeah, it will be a low number..

what about tasers? are those in the same category as guns or are women/people allowed to carry those? and pepper spray? a gun isn't the only way to defend oneself..

If FD or you were the school President no one would get one.
Have you ever heard of private property?
The law bans firearms from schools.
Here the law says that businesses can ban open carry if they post it.
There are a lot of places that are gun free, government buildings for example.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 4:46:28 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

freedomdwarf1


All other countries that have done this have also proven that even the criminals generally don't carry guns either.


I'll post this yet again from NoBimbosAllowed. I'm so sick of repeating this shit.

This comment is less than fair, because the USA is more like Europe with a collection of smallish countries conjoined. In the USA, those country-lets are 'states'. They have separate laws for everything.

When you look at a country such as Holland, you can practically fit it INSIDE Texas. regulating what makes someone WANT a gun, and helping them develop into a person whom would never want to USE a gun, is EASY in a place that is less than 15% of the size of the continental USA. And in such a European nation, for the most part, the cultures and laws will be the same. Swedish Laws are Swedish Laws, and different to laws elsewhere. So you can take a place like Holland and in 20 years you can make a noteworthy, PRAGMATIC change. Asking the USA to do that nationwide is as unreasonable and half-assed, half-cocked an idea as expecting Belarus (still ruled by a despot) and the Oligarchies of Russia to suddenly become equally civilized and less assault-inclined because Holland decided to be so, to be more noble.

less assault does not come by dint of more gun control, it comes by dint of the fact that you can take a country like Holland or Finland or Iceland, and due to their TINY size, and the fact that their cultures are relatively uniform, you can effect an overall society which is more pro-empathy and intellect, and less 'rah rah, go team Meathead'.

before guns existed, the root of most violence is Meatheads. Take away the guns, you will still have violence, mostly always initiated by MEATHEADS.

If you provide an incentive to a populace to think more, bash less, read more, "Johnny Knoxville less", you will reduce the violence. The gun ownership and sexual assaults are symptoms of the Elephant In The Room Disease, and that disease has a name: MEATHEADS.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 5:53:17 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		Jut taking a bit to clarify something. "Guns on Campus".
Most states in the U.S. have primary and secondary school campuses as "gun free zones". For those on the other side of the pond this is schooling for ages 6 through 18 on the average. After grade 12; it is College or University.
The original question was of personal ownership and carry of firearms by legal adults on College and University campuses. A separate issue for keeping the little children in gun free zones.

If legally able to own a firearm; can a person be forbidden from having a firearm in University housing?
If legally able to own a firearm; can a person be forbidden from having a firearm locked in their vehicle while parked on University property?
If licensed to carry concealed in the state where the university is located; can a person be prohibited from carrying on University property with no law on the books stating any such prohibition?

In several states; blanket "no guns on college campuses" rules are facing legal challenge. It will probably end up as different strokes for different venues but we will see.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 7:31:01 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
....lets see--you are standing there, you suspect an attack is about to come---which would you rather have? pepper spray, a bat, or a gun? regardless of what you'd choose, some will choose the latter. who are you to take it away from them?

And there is the flaw in your argument.
The point in lucy's post is that for a lot of these incidents, the women (or men) are not aware that there is an imminent attack and therefore a gun is useless.
Of course, if you are aware of such a danger, there are still many other ways to avoid getting attacked.
And again, that doesn't mean a gun either.
See what I mean?? first reaction is..... gun!! And that really shouldn't be the case.
Fucking paranoid the lot of you.
There's too many guns and that's why you need a gun for protection.

I dunno about the US but the pepper spray over here damned near cripples a person for 2 minutes and more.
Maybe yours is watered down??
Even in police training where they put you through a pepper attack, there's not many that can stay standing after being sprayed from a distance well beyond arms reach.

Is pepper spray even legal in England?
If they have too much surprise for a gun to work, you really think a bat will?


Sure pepper spray is a great idea, just make sure you know which way the wind is blowing and pray it doesn't change and blow that shit back in your face. Maybe stores could sell little wind socks along with each canister.

But hey maybe he is onto something. We could just outlaw guns on public property. After all if it had been illegal to take the gun out of his house that kid that just got shot would never have been able to rob the store in the first place.

_____________________________

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 7:37:49 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		FR
Just looked up on line and as I suspected it seems that pepper spray is illegal in the UK, thus you have to carry a bat around all the time.
Or if you are above the law a homemade mace.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 8:08:05 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

so just to be clear---in your world, the only people who get to have guns then would be the military and maybe law enforcement?

love this: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/05/robert-farago/688-armed-robberies-in-gun-free-uk-in-three-years-at-betting-shops/

"I don’t mean to pick on my former home but . . . “From April 2008 to June 2011, there were 688 robberies at London betting shops where a gun was used, according to the Metropolitan Police.” There it is in black and white via guardian.co.uk: the country held up as the exemplar for American gun control is prey to hundreds of armed robberies."

even if what you are suggesting could remotely be true (lots fewer bad guys with guns), women are still at a disadvantage compared to male attackers. guns equalize that. so....it's probably better they bring a gun to a knife fight wouldn't you think?



I'm not advocating to completely ban guns.... just don't allow them in public.

And from your quote: "“From April 2008 to June 2011, there were 688 robberies at London betting shops where a gun was used".
688 robberies in what.... just over 3 YEARS??!?
And how many guns deaths in those robberies, huh???

And now compare that to over 32,000 gun deaths per year alone in the US.
No fucking contest!



I wonder what that number would be if we subtracted black crime from the total?

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 8:21:55 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

so just to be clear---in your world, the only people who get to have guns then would be the military and maybe law enforcement?

love this: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/05/robert-farago/688-armed-robberies-in-gun-free-uk-in-three-years-at-betting-shops/

"I don’t mean to pick on my former home but . . . “From April 2008 to June 2011, there were 688 robberies at London betting shops where a gun was used, according to the Metropolitan Police.” There it is in black and white via guardian.co.uk: the country held up as the exemplar for American gun control is prey to hundreds of armed robberies."

even if what you are suggesting could remotely be true (lots fewer bad guys with guns), women are still at a disadvantage compared to male attackers. guns equalize that. so....it's probably better they bring a gun to a knife fight wouldn't you think?



I'm not advocating to completely ban guns.... just don't allow them in public.

And from your quote: "“From April 2008 to June 2011, there were 688 robberies at London betting shops where a gun was used".
688 robberies in what.... just over 3 YEARS??!?
And how many guns deaths in those robberies, huh???

And now compare that to over 32,000 gun deaths per year alone in the US.
No fucking contest!



I wonder what that number would be if we subtracted black crime from the total?

According to Bloomberg it would be about 1600. or only 650 since he says that 95% of murders are committed by minorities so we have to take guns away from them.
People who want to commit suicide will anyway so those 19000 don't really count.

Isn't it amazing how if they have a higher murder rate and draconian gun laws social differences give them a pass but social differences don't count for the US.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 2/22/2015 8:24:16 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 8:54:35 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR
... thus you have to carry a bat around all the time. ...



Do you remember the band manager in "This Is Spinal Tap" that carried that Cricket bat around, everywhere?

Of course, that film was made 30+ years ago ...



Michael

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

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(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: The continuing war on poor little gun owners... - 2/22/2015 8:56:14 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR
... thus you have to carry a bat around all the time. ...



Do you remember the band manager in "This Is Spinal Tap" that carried that Cricket bat around, everywhere?

Of course, that film was made 30+ years ago ...



Michael

I don't think I have ever seen Spinal Tap

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 100
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