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RE: Slut Shaming - 2/27/2015 4:33:14 PM   
ExiledTyrant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

But I thought sluts were shameless?


Just the ones that have no pride.

_____________________________

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To lead, first follow: Aurelius, Epictetus, Descartes, Sun Tzu, to name a few.

Semper fidelis (which sometimes feels like a burden)

(in reply to ResidentSadist)
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RE: Slut Shaming - 2/27/2015 6:21:24 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		Thanks for clearing that up for me.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant


quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

But I thought sluts were shameless?


Just the ones that have no pride.



_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to ExiledTyrant)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Slut Shaming - 2/27/2015 9:37:41 PM   
tiggerspoohbear


Posts: 19141
Joined: 6/27/2010
Status: offline 		I was called a slut before being called a slut was a good thing. When the high school girls didn't and couldn't accept that *gasp* another female student could fuck around and actually enjoy it. As for the high school guys? Well dammit if there wasn't a slut available who was gonna fuck em? O yeah, ME! The high school slut!!
The rumors, the writing in indelible marker on my locker, the parents of friends who'd heard "talk" & wouldn't let their daughters be my friends anymore. These same friends I'd had since I was a toddler. These same female teens who were now worried I'd be fucking their boyfriends. I may have been a slut, but I didnt fuck around. There's a huge difference.

Now, I'm still a slut, but a one-man slut. His only. Come on to me because you think that I'm overweight and submissive? Watch a tigress appear. My Man will stand back and know when to intercede. He'll calm me down, call me his good girl, his pet. He knows how to treat me.

When I 1st started in the lifestyle, with a Dom, I thought I had to appease all Doms. The day he told me I only had to answer to him, a light bulb went off. That's when the snark came out. I can chat and make friends with whoever I please, I'm trusted 100%. In return, I would never betray that trust, Mister Man has earned it from me.

But cross that line, nope, no dom wants to go there. And if you're not prepared to say it to my face in person, then don't think the anonymity of the Internet is going to work any better.

_____________________________

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RE: Slut Shaming - 2/28/2015 6:20:41 AM   
Kaliko


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Joined: 9/25/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw

Slut celebrating helps everyone.




Slut celebrating doesn't help everyone. It helps those who have a belief system similar to yours.





< Message edited by Kaliko -- 2/28/2015 6:21:01 AM >

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RE: Slut Shaming - 2/28/2015 6:32:33 AM   
ExiledTyrant


Posts: 4547
Joined: 12/9/2013
From: Exiled
Status: offline 		Here, kaliko, this should help: http://soapcentral.com/soapcentral/index.php

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Gnothi Seauton
To lead, first follow: Aurelius, Epictetus, Descartes, Sun Tzu, to name a few.

Semper fidelis (which sometimes feels like a burden)

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Slut Shaming - 2/28/2015 6:46:08 AM   
Kaliko


Posts: 3381
Joined: 9/25/2010
Status: offline 		Oh, come on. You have no idea how much I deleted before I posted. I could have been way more argumentative.




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RE: Slut Shaming - 2/28/2015 6:46:53 AM   
shiftyw


Posts: 2837
Joined: 6/6/2013
From: The Shire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw

Slut celebrating helps everyone.




Slut celebrating doesn't help everyone. It helps those who have a belief system similar to yours.






I hear you. Fair enough. How about equal treatment of all those who identify as women regardless of sexual preferences. We can have a day for women who dont identify as sluts too. I think everyone here can exist together with mutual respect if we stop using slut as an insult, and embrace that women can have control over their sexual choices- regardless of what they may be. Better?




< Message edited by shiftyw -- 2/28/2015 6:52:26 AM >

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RE: Slut Shaming - 2/28/2015 6:49:38 AM   
ExiledTyrant


Posts: 4547
Joined: 12/9/2013
From: Exiled
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

Oh, come on. You have no idea how much I deleted before I posted. I could have been way more argumentative.






Which never comes as a surprise.

_____________________________

Gnothi Seauton
To lead, first follow: Aurelius, Epictetus, Descartes, Sun Tzu, to name a few.

Semper fidelis (which sometimes feels like a burden)

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Slut Shaming - 2/28/2015 7:03:37 AM   
Kaliko


Posts: 3381
Joined: 9/25/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw

Slut celebrating helps everyone.




Slut celebrating doesn't help everyone. It helps those who have a belief system similar to yours.






I hear you. Fair enough. How about equal treatment of all those who identify as women regardless of sexual preferences. We can have a day for women who dont identify as sluts too. I think everyone here can exist together with mutual respect of we stop using slut as an insult, and embrace that women can have control over their sexual choices- regardless of what they may be. Better?






Genuine question: Why are we so intent on making the word "slut" not an insult?

Let's take the word "asshole." There are many, many people who probably genuinely fit the definition of the word "asshole." And they probably don't really care because even though they're a bit of an asshole, they're living their life just fine and how they like it. Yes, other people are putting them down for being an asshole. No big deal, because no one is forcing them to label themselves as an asshole. They're not out buying shirts saying "Yes, I'm an asshole. Deal with it." They're just living their lives and not throwing the fact that they're an asshole in everyone's face. They're not trying to say that being an asshole is a good thing and they're not making justifications for their behavior - because they don't feel the need to. They're just not choosing to identify themselves as such.

Why is it so important that women identify themselves as a slut? Why must the insult not even exist in our language? Why wouldn't we just not pay any mind to it if we feel that it doesn't apply to us? It's just an insult, just like any other insult.

I get it that the insinuation by using the word "slut" as an insult is that promiscuity is shameful. Well, A., there are some who do really and truly believe that promiscuity is shameful. But more to my point, B. So what? When we insult someone by saying they live in their mother's basement, that implies that doing so is shameful. When we insult someone by calling them a cradle-robber, that implies that having a relationship of their choosing is shameful. How is any of that different that than when we call someone a slut, which implies that their promiscuity is shameful? Are we changing all the insults, everywhere? Why is it so important that we make "slut" not a bad word?


ETA: holy fuck, four times to fix one two-letter word.





< Message edited by Kaliko -- 2/28/2015 7:09:42 AM >

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RE: Slut Shaming - 2/28/2015 7:41:07 AM   
shiftyw


Posts: 2837
Joined: 6/6/2013
From: The Shire
Status: offline 		I think a lot of people do take pride in being an asshole and consider it a central value. I view that completely different than you. Have you ever clicked the link that used to be in Tyrants sig?

I am personally for eliminating the word slut as an insult because it continues rape culture and I feel the shaming of promiscuity is more important to a lot of people than sexual education and positivity.

It reflects my own values, sure, I'm not denying that- but I believe that sexual education and positivity are wildly important beyond myself and I think the lack of education is a real shame. My mom and I recently talked about why I got the HPV shot. She thought it meant I had herpes. I thought it was appalling she didn't know what it meant and didn't know ANYTHING about HPV at all. Ignorance is encouraged by the word slut. I don't really think all insults do that. Although I try really hard to not insult people (despite nicks thread this morning...). I also think feminism is a society wide issue and even those that don't identify as feminists would benefit from the equal treatment of those who identify women. I don't doubt they feel I would benefit from their standards- but simply I view myself as right and them as wrong. I don't want to eliminate those choices, I want to embrace the ability to have those choices- and accept everyone's choices. I also want those choices to be available to everyone.

Slut is a slur to me- we can talk about other slurs and how they encourage systems of oppression if you want. In fact that's why I asked about cocksucker- because I wondered how he was viewing it, having never really found myself using it. I don't use racial slurs, I don't use body shaming slurs, I don't use hophobic slurs. I don't use classist insults and I am sincerely working on not using ageist insults or the word "dick" or pussy. Although I do still use dick, it is a habit I'm working on breaking. The ageist stuff I usually only use if someone throws something about my age into the ring- not that that's a valid excuse on my part- but I do get pretty defensive. Im pretty sure I've only used bitch in terms of myself recently- or as a term of affection or amoungest those who know I consider it flattery to them. I don't think I've ever used manwhore either. I think those are all a part of the problem. They just don't have a thread for them. Asshole really isn't gender based, race based, or what have you, so that is on the table still.

eta- all sorts of fucking misspelling. Have I edited every post for the last 24 hours?

< Message edited by shiftyw -- 2/28/2015 7:46:56 AM >

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RE: Slut Shaming - 2/28/2015 8:05:55 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline


[/quote]


Genuine question: Why are we so intent on making the word "slut" not an insult?

Let's take the word "asshole." There are many, many people who probably genuinely fit the definition of the word "asshole." And they probably don't really care because even though they're a bit of an asshole, they're living their life just fine and how they like it. Yes, other people are putting them down for being an asshole. No big deal, because no one is forcing them to label themselves as an asshole. They're not out buying shirts saying "Yes, I'm an asshole. Deal with it." They're just living their lives and not throwing the fact that they're an asshole in everyone's face. They're not trying to say that being an asshole is a good thing and they're not making justifications for their behavior - because they don't feel the need to. They're just not choosing to identify themselves as such.

Why is it so important that women identify themselves as a slut? Why must the insult not even exist in our language? Why wouldn't we just not pay any mind to it if we feel that it doesn't apply to us? It's just an insult, just like any other insult.

I get it that the insinuation by using the word "slut" as an insult is that promiscuity is shameful. Well, A., there are some who do really and truly believe that promiscuity is shameful. But more to my point, B. So what? When we insult someone by saying they live in their mother's basement, that implies that doing so is shameful. When we insult someone by calling them a cradle-robber, that implies that having a relationship of their choosing is shameful. How is any of that different that than when we call someone a slut, which implies that their promiscuity is shameful? Are we changing all the insults, everywhere? Why is it so important that we make "slut" not a bad word?

[/quote]


Asshole, fucker, etc are not gender biased.

The word slut is gender biased when used as an insult. When a guy is referred to as a slut, he is apt to grin and say YUP! When a woman is called a slut she is supposed to feel shame. Shifty and I and many others refuse to feel that shame; we love sex! Slut is a blame-name. There have been times that after sex I did not feel good about it for various reasons; but I never blamed him for my unhappiness. I took a look at what part I played in making it an encounter that didn't work out so well. I didn't automatically call him names to justify my unhappiness---but that is what a lot of men do.

< Message edited by catize -- 2/28/2015 8:20:01 AM >

_____________________________

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RE: Slut Shaming - 2/28/2015 8:23:19 AM   
Kaliko


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Joined: 9/25/2010
Status: offline 		I don't think that shaming promiscuity necessarily results in someone who lacks in education or positivity. I understand that to some, not feeling judged if they're promiscuous is positivity. I view it differently, which I guess is why I said that slut celebrating doesn't help everyone.

I did consider the oppression aspect of it and to be honest, I feel unqualified to comment. But that is actually what prompted my question of Why do we care? I was thinking about whether the fact that a woman can't sleep around without someone thinking she's a slut actually causes her any real harm other than that some people won't like that she does it. But...is this a limited view? Have I just been lucky that I've never really felt any oppression for my sexual choices? Sometimes I think yes. Sometimes I wonder, though. I'm a grown woman and have had jobs, family, mortgages, illnesses, education, city-living, country-living, and kink. I live in the same culture as everybody else around me, but I don't feel this oppression that other women seem to feel. I understand that's thanks to those who came before me, and perhaps luck and circumstance have more to do with it than I realize, but...I just don't feel oppressed.

I won't ask anyone to belabor the point. (Unless you want to.) I just don't really get it, why anyone cares if anyone else thinks they're a slut in a good way or a slut in a bad way.

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RE: Slut Shaming - 2/28/2015 8:30:50 AM   
shiftyw


Posts: 2837
Joined: 6/6/2013
From: The Shire
Status: offline 		Here's something else that bothers me about slut-

I hate when people tell me, or any other person for that matter, that I am PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for the fact I'm a rape victim, because I enjoy and want sex. I think that is totally unfair, I think it devalues the larger lesson, and I think the term slut plays into that.

I think and will remain so firmly and far into the camp of "rather than teaching girls to expect rape and limit themselves, lets teach people to not take advantage of them or be violent against them".

I will never ever say the way she dressed, acted, or talked made her responsible for someone's actions against her. She got too drunk? So you decided to shove your fingers up her without consent and take pics of it and share them on facebook? She was irresponsible when she got drunk, but she is not the CAUSE of their actions. They're own lack of decency is. She didn't "ask for it" it is not HER problem they couldn't control themselves.

FUCK victim blaming in the form of slut shaming- fuck that. I really can't say how warped I think that is.

And YES there are male rape victims and no one takes them seriously for this SAME reason and it is a shame. Its bullshit actually. Slut shaming and the assumption that every guy wants to bang all the time go hand in hand.

Chris Brown for example speaks candidly about the fact he lost his virginity to an adult female at 14. No one takes him seriously as a victim- why not? Because rather than view her as a predator- she's just another slut and he is just another horny guy. Fuck that. That is lazy reasoning, avoiding the real problem and while slut works in her favor, I GUESS...there is less stigma on her, etc. it makes us all not see her for what she really is, which is a PREDATOR. By viewing her as not in charge of her own sexuality, by devaluing her power- it actually diminishes her very real crime- nobody wins when that happens. What he did to Rihanna- was horrible. I believe though- had he actually sought therapy and faced the fact he was victimized- his anger issues would be less so and that might not have ever happened- but we don't see men as victims because we don't see women as sexually powerful.

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RE: Slut Shaming - 2/28/2015 8:36:29 AM   
Kaliko


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Joined: 9/25/2010
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quote:



The word slut is gender biased when used as an insult. When a guy is referred to as a slut, he is apt to grin and say YUP! When a woman is called a slut she is supposed to feel shame. Shifty and I and many others refuse to feel that shame; we love sex!


But just because someone tells you you're a slut - even a shameful slut - why would that impact your love of sex? Why do you care if you know you have nothing to be ashamed of? This is what I'm not understanding. And that's why I say, in the post I made just before this one, that perhaps there is an element of oppression which shifty alluded to that I'm missing. But, yeah. I'm missing it. I still don't see why we need to make being called a slut something positive.

I don't see that gender has much to do with it, in the case of comparing insults. And I wonder if the fact that both you and shifty immediately picked up on the fact that "asshole" isn't gender specific and I am struggling to see how that matters explains the disagreement in a nutshell. Different perspectives, I guess.



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RE: Slut Shaming - 2/28/2015 8:40:09 AM   
satanscharmer


Posts: 376
Status: offline 		Typically, when someone fights for a cause, they're fighting for their specific cause. So if one person wanted to change how people feel about women's sexuality and stopping the practice of slut shaming, they're not going to throw in every other term that doesn't quite fit their cause. Like asshole. (BTW, I have actually seen someone wear such a shirt. Not this one, but similarly).

http://www.amazon.com/Asshole-Sleeve-T-Shirt-Various-Colors/dp/B001PF9CF8

(If we were living in my ideal world, though, there wouldn't be a need for any insults because we would all get along. Yeah, I'm one of those.)

I understand what you're saying. I don't believe it's the word we (or at least I) want to change per se, it's more of the practice and reasoning that often accompanies it.

Take a young couple "in love" that participate in sex. Things go sour, word gets out, he's celebrated and she's called slut, is harassed, ostracized...
In high school, I became friends with a girl who went through that situation. She barely made it out alive...suicide was wasn't a distant thought.

By "celebrating" women's sexuality, we can hopefully help to remove the stigma and avoid as many of those, and other, situations as possible. By changing the meaning of the word slut or removing its usage altogether, it wouldn't be much of a service as the word would get replaced with another word. It's the practice of shaming that's the issue.
Kids learn by example, IME.

Having three daughters myself, yes I do care.
But I also care a great deal about people I haven't even met. I don't want them to go through that.

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RE: Slut Shaming - 2/28/2015 9:12:24 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:



The word slut is gender biased when used as an insult. When a guy is referred to as a slut, he is apt to grin and say YUP! When a woman is called a slut she is supposed to feel shame. Shifty and I and many others refuse to feel that shame; we love sex!


I'm missing it. I still don't see why we need to make being called a slut something positive.


If it could be eradicated completely I could see your point, But the word slut is here; and I, for one, would rather wear the label proudly and positively than to continue having others try to shame me for my choices, Positive is better than negative, yes?


_____________________________

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RE: Slut Shaming - 2/28/2015 9:14:02 AM   
shiftyw


Posts: 2837
Joined: 6/6/2013
From: The Shire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:



The word slut is gender biased when used as an insult. When a guy is referred to as a slut, he is apt to grin and say YUP! When a woman is called a slut she is supposed to feel shame. Shifty and I and many others refuse to feel that shame; we love sex!


But just because someone tells you you're a slut - even a shameful slut - why would that impact your love of sex? Why do you care if you know you have nothing to be ashamed of? This is what I'm not understanding. And that's why I say, in the post I made just before this one, that perhaps there is an element of oppression which shifty alluded to that I'm missing. But, yeah. I'm missing it. I still don't see why we need to make being called a slut something positive.

I don't see that gender has much to do with it, in the case of comparing insults. And I wonder if the fact that both you and shifty immediately picked up on the fact that "asshole" isn't gender specific and I am struggling to see how that matters explains the disagreement in a nutshell. Different perspectives, I guess.





Oppression in this case refers to these things (this is just an example, far from a full list):
-Socially- women are not viewed, and are taught, their sexuality IS shameful and unlike that of a males.
-Trans women of color are murdered at an ALARMING rate this year- that has to do with the gender they identify with and feel they were born as, the fact that they feel (and so do I) they still are sexual beings AND the color of their skin, they were born as.
-There is still a huge wage gap- women are still only paid 78% of what men are- and that number has barely made any headway in a decade. While that doesn't directly correlate with slut- it shows that women are not taken as seriously, and to assume that doesn't translate to sexuality- is in my opinion- naive.
-The rape example I already used. Which effects BOTH sides of the fence.
-Females in the gaming industry are obviously being threatened into silence over a made up sex scandal. Gamergate- as incredibly stupid as it is, is one hell of a quagmire right now.
-Just last year a guy went on a killing rampage because he felt that they were all stupid sluts. He felt as though he deserved a "beautiful" girl simply for existing. He felt they "teased him" by being sexual beings, but not choosing to have sex with him.
-Nice guys everywhere insist they are rejected for being nice- but really...these women have a goddamn right to reject anyone they want- just like a man. And I'm guessing they aren't being rejected because they are nice. I'm guessing they are being rejected- for the most part- for reasonable things like compatibility issues.

ETA- goddamn it. misspelling. I need to get on a real computer.


< Message edited by shiftyw -- 2/28/2015 9:15:12 AM >

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RE: Slut Shaming - 2/28/2015 9:14:22 AM   
ExiledTyrant


Posts: 4547
Joined: 12/9/2013
From: Exiled
Status: offline 		Kaliko, now you're engaging the topic, thank you.

Historically I like to disenfranchise words. When I am called an asshole I smile and say thanks for noticing. It has taken great effort on my part to become an indiscriminate asshole, I'm an asshole to everyone when needs be.

When you take the "misogynistic" objectification and quantification that all women are sluts and whores, everywhere YOU go, the term "slut" and "whore" is the first thing that pops into a misguided dudes mind... "Mmmm... look at that slut, I bet she could suck the chrome off a bumper". We can choose to be victims of complacency or disenfranchise the word "slut" by owning it and turning into something more positive.

Once upon a time, "Gay" was a good thing, then it became a bad thing, then it became a civil matter, now it is a good thing again, thankfully. I'm sure you've seen the power struggle over "gay", and we have a continuing struggle over slut. We know my opinion of slut and I happily support the inner slut in everyone and will do everything in my power to transform "slut" into a positive rather than the stigma that it is.

I grew up in a houseful of women... a house full... and they were very happy with their sexuality and the fact that they loved sex. Each and everyone of them considered "slut" to be a badge of honor, because for generations my clan is/was largely female heavy and sex, the joy of sex, and who they wanted to have sex with and who rocked their world sexually was very often a topic. Normal is where you come from and rarely is where everyone is, so the normal among my clan, was women were not/are not sexually repressed or shamed by sex.

Now, for me, a slut fits the bill because I want her desires compelling our actions and interactions between the sheets. I'm poly, MFF and just do not have a want or need for Jesus, or any other man, telling her what to do in bed.

Jus sayin

_____________________________

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To lead, first follow: Aurelius, Epictetus, Descartes, Sun Tzu, to name a few.

Semper fidelis (which sometimes feels like a burden)

(in reply to Kaliko)
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RE: Slut Shaming - 2/28/2015 5:10:05 PM   
SinFix


Posts: 866
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		I have stayed away from this thread due to not being sure I could convey my thoughts on this well, that it would be taken as some kinda of blame or that women aren't nor haven't been made to feel shame for what they do. But here it goes.

To me this isn't a male/female name-blame issue, to me it is a sex issue. Society shames sex period, any enjoyment or pleasure derived from sex is considered bad, disgusting and evil. From what I have seen and experienced, a woman is not called a "slut" until she is connected with sexual acts, then the sharks circle and the blame begins. We need to empower sex as the beautiful, natural and down right freaking pleasurable act that sex is, I feel by doing that we will take away the power of slut shaming. That any person should be made to feel any way over having sex or not is wrong, do not glorify nor condemn the virgin. Do not glorify nor condemn the slut for every one of us is a gorgeous sexual creature that should be shown in a positive light.

By empowering sex, we take the negative connotations out of it and every one benefits, no matter how you embrace your sexuality.

Well not sure how this is going to go but well can't lose or fail if you never try.

ETA: I apologize that this is pared down, just kept erasing things that I felt were maybe not on point and for things that just could have been me rambling on...It was a lot longer

< Message edited by SinFix -- 2/28/2015 5:23:48 PM >

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RE: Slut Shaming - 2/28/2015 5:29:03 PM   
RockaRolla


Posts: 1153
Joined: 1/20/2014
From: South Florida
Status: offline 		The only time I've dealt with slut shaming is something I'm not even sure counts. I was 13 and a virgin, but had recently broken up with my boyfriend and I guess he spread some nasty rumors to get back at me. I never learned what exactly he said, but half the girls in my class hated me and half the guys started teasing me. It wasn't the slut rumors that bothered me, because they were obviously false and therefore made no sense to me. It was the treatment I got from my classmates because of said rumors that got to me.

Granted, I wasn't a popular kid to begin with, so that made it easier for me to say "fuck it all" and shut down.

I think the operative word here isn't "slut," it's "shaming." The "slut" is just a vehicle, or a means to an end. The point isn't necessarily to make a woman feel bad for her sexuality, but make her feel bad in general using whatever tool will work. "Fat" and "ugly" have the same effect. They're all stigmatized but they can be used interchangeably because they're such impersonal terms.

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