quote:

ORIGINAL: SinFix
Society shames sex period, any enjoyment or pleasure derived from sex is considered bad, disgusting and evil. From what I have seen and experienced, a woman is not called a "slut" until she is connected with sexual acts, then the sharks circle and the blame begins.

quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw

I think sex has become much more accepted. I think women are still the more "shameful" ones though, and I think they have been for a really long time. I mean, look at the story of original sin- a story and word Sin has chosen to also reclaim.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SinFix

quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw

I think sex has become much more accepted. I think women are still the more "shameful" ones though, and I think they have been for a really long time. I mean, look at the story of original sin- a story and word Sin has chosen to also reclaim.

I will start this off by saying, I am not talking about you.....

But by saying the word accepted, society is still connecting negativity to sex.. you don't have to like, enjoy or engage in something you accept. We need to switch the word to like empower. I think sex has become much more empowered, is more positive and shameful isn't attached to it.

Yes, I agree that we tend to shame women for enjoying sex, condemning men who aren't experienced. For example, society still snickers at women who read romance novels, why due to some of it being we are not empowering sex and educating people that talking, engaging and enjoying sex is a good thing, it is dark, dirty and bad, so she reads about what she might enjoy but usually never talks to the other about it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw


Oppression in this case refers to these things (this is just an example, far from a full list):
-Socially- women are not viewed, and are taught, their sexuality IS shameful and unlike that of a males.
-Trans women of color are murdered at an ALARMING rate this year- that has to do with the gender they identify with and feel they were born as, the fact that they feel (and so do I) they still are sexual beings AND the color of their skin, they were born as.
-There is still a huge wage gap- women are still only paid 78% of what men are- and that number has barely made any headway in a decade. While that doesn't directly correlate with slut- it shows that women are not taken as seriously, and to assume that doesn't translate to sexuality- is in my opinion- naive.
-The rape example I already used. Which effects BOTH sides of the fence.
-Females in the gaming industry are obviously being threatened into silence over a made up sex scandal. Gamergate- as incredibly stupid as it is, is one hell of a quagmire right now.
-Just last year a guy went on a killing rampage because he felt that they were all stupid sluts. He felt as though he deserved a "beautiful" girl simply for existing. He felt they "teased him" by being sexual beings, but not choosing to have sex with him.
-Nice guys everywhere insist they are rejected for being nice- but really...these women have a goddamn right to reject anyone they want- just like a man. And I'm guessing they aren't being rejected because they are nice. I'm guessing they are being rejected- for the most part- for reasonable things like compatibility issues.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

Kaliko, now you're engaging the topic, thank you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SinFix

Society shames sex period, any enjoyment or pleasure derived from sex is considered bad, disgusting and evil.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SinFix

Yes, I agree that we tend to shame women for enjoying sex, condemning men who aren't experienced. For example, society still snickers at women who read romance novels, why due to some of it being we are not empowering sex and educating people that talking, engaging and enjoying sex is a good thing, it is dark, dirty and bad, so she reads about what she might enjoy but usually never talks to the other about it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

Kaliko, now you're engaging the topic, thank you.

I was engaging the topic from my first post on this thread and I carried my point through on subsequent posts. You were in such a hurry to insult me that you didn't wait to see how the conversation played out. Then, when I politely responded with some jest, you insulted me again. Your attempt to validate my conduct is adorable, though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw


Oppression in this case refers to these things (this is just an example, far from a full list):
-Socially- women are not viewed, and are taught, their sexuality IS shameful and unlike that of a males.
-Trans women of color are murdered at an ALARMING rate this year- that has to do with the gender they identify with and feel they were born as, the fact that they feel (and so do I) they still are sexual beings AND the color of their skin, they were born as.
-There is still a huge wage gap- women are still only paid 78% of what men are- and that number has barely made any headway in a decade. While that doesn't directly correlate with slut- it shows that women are not taken as seriously, and to assume that doesn't translate to sexuality- is in my opinion- naive.
-The rape example I already used. Which effects BOTH sides of the fence.
-Females in the gaming industry are obviously being threatened into silence over a made up sex scandal. Gamergate- as incredibly stupid as it is, is one hell of a quagmire right now.
-Just last year a guy went on a killing rampage because he felt that they were all stupid sluts. He felt as though he deserved a "beautiful" girl simply for existing. He felt they "teased him" by being sexual beings, but not choosing to have sex with him.
-Nice guys everywhere insist they are rejected for being nice- but really...these women have a goddamn right to reject anyone they want- just like a man. And I'm guessing they aren't being rejected because they are nice. I'm guessing they are being rejected- for the most part- for reasonable things like compatibility issues.

Without getting into details on each point, in general, I disagree with your summation of each of these points except for the nice guys one. I'm not defending my points or arguing yours. I'm only finding it interesting that you and I - you and I especially, even, since we are not oceans or cultures apart - we're only a few miles from each other and only about one generation from each other, I think? - and yet, we see the same world events so differently. It's interesting academically.

quote:

ORIGINAL: satanscharmer

FR-

I'm not sure what the debate here is, it seems as though there are a few. Included in those, one appears to be its existence and one of which appears to be the reason behind why some want or care to see change.

I will just state this and leave it alone: having seen it, I know it exists. I feel the need to validate my sincerity towards the issue or list off reasons why I feel for others, about as much as I feel the need to validate my sexuality or behavior to others. None.

So, moving on...

Typing in "slut shaming" into a browser pulls up a myriad of articles. Not a surprise.
A few mention a possible debate on using "shaming", due to its over-usage in today's time and some suggest a different term might be more effective in getting the word across. A few:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/05/slut-author-s-war-on-slut-shaming.html

http://jezebel.com/slut-shaming-has-been-tossed-around-so-much-its-los-1478093672


This one I found interesting, since it appears as though views may have shifted with some women in some socioeconomic classes:

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/5/29/slut-shaming-study.html

Having seen this, I wonder if anyone else has noticed this shift? Since I don't spend much time at my local yacht club or private golf club, I cannot offer up my personal observations. I wonder, though, if an affluent woman is less likely to be shamed for her sexual proclivities than a woman with the same proclivities who is in a "lesser" class.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw


Oppression in this case refers to these things (this is just an example, far from a full list):
-Socially- women are not viewed, and are taught, their sexuality IS shameful and unlike that of a males.
-Trans women of color are murdered at an ALARMING rate this year- that has to do with the gender they identify with and feel they were born as, the fact that they feel (and so do I) they still are sexual beings AND the color of their skin, they were born as.
-There is still a huge wage gap- women are still only paid 78% of what men are- and that number has barely made any headway in a decade. While that doesn't directly correlate with slut- it shows that women are not taken as seriously, and to assume that doesn't translate to sexuality- is in my opinion- naive.
-The rape example I already used. Which effects BOTH sides of the fence.
-Females in the gaming industry are obviously being threatened into silence over a made up sex scandal. Gamergate- as incredibly stupid as it is, is one hell of a quagmire right now.
-Just last year a guy went on a killing rampage because he felt that they were all stupid sluts. He felt as though he deserved a "beautiful" girl simply for existing. He felt they "teased him" by being sexual beings, but not choosing to have sex with him.
-Nice guys everywhere insist they are rejected for being nice- but really...these women have a goddamn right to reject anyone they want- just like a man. And I'm guessing they aren't being rejected because they are nice. I'm guessing they are being rejected- for the most part- for reasonable things like compatibility issues.

Without getting into details on each point, in general, I disagree with your summation of each of these points except for the nice guys one. I'm not defending my points or arguing yours. I'm only finding it interesting that you and I - you and I especially, even, since we are not oceans or cultures apart - we're only a few miles from each other and only about one generation from each other, I think? - and yet, we see the same world events so differently. It's interesting academically.

I don't see how you can disagree with any of her points, given that they are factual vs. subjective.

quote:


Phoenix Calida:
Aside from the utter lack of thought that exists in "anti feminist" groups, I think the selfishness is the most appalling thing in this "movement". it's yet another example of how race, sexuality, and gender politics exist in a way that normalizes oppression.
"I don't need feminism because I'm not a victim"
"I don't like feminism because I've never been raped"
"I don't want feminism because my life is perfect"
Next time just say:
"I don't need feminism because in my personal life experiences, I've never been forced to critically contemplate oppressive power structures that are trying to kill me"
While we're at it, why Not tell cancer patients to avoid chemo because *you* don't need it?
why not advocate for birth control to be eliminated because your tubes are already tied?
maybe tell people in poverty to stop advocating for higher minimum wage because you make $18 an hour?
I mean really, if the entire world needs to be based around your anecdotal personal experience*, why stop with just feminism?

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

~~FAST REPLY~~
I believe we have come very far in owning our sexuality. There was a time when only the woman was held accountable for her pregnancy outside of marriage. (The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne) There was a time when teachers and nurses could not be married in case they became pregnant. Young women had to quit school if they were pregnant, divorced women were considered 'loose' and were treated as such in their communities.
I recently lived in an urban area in Iowa where, at my workplace, 50% of the young women are mothers who have never been married; our CEO and several other administrative folks are openly gay. Despite the PC attitudes within the entire workplace, if someone was upset or angry at a coworker, one could hear deprecating remarks (she's a slut anyway, the lesbo is on a rampage again) etc,
So it is my opinion that what is needed is not simply the external acceptance but the internal as well.
Living now in the middle of nowhere I am amazed at the lack of even external acceptance of many things sexual.
We have a ways to go, but I hope we are getting there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw

FR- I am having a personal family issue right now. I will not be back a lot to this thread, or around today and probably not tomorrow either- but I want to address you Kaliko.

For starters- I'm not going to play link tag- this post isn't in P&R- and I agree- that shit goes in circles. I'm not really out to convince you either? Because I don't think I will? But here is likely why our experiences have been different.

I lived in Philly for 4 years and NJ for 4 years- each place I lived in an area with a large minority population- and both places were certainly NOT what it is like here- I can honestly say the difference in area really put perspective on it for me, I'm not sure where else you've lived, but I would say if it weren't for living on a block that HAD prostitution on it for two years- and getting to KNOW those prostitutes- was a real eye opener for me. I would say the morning I was taking the first train back to my apartment and I had a guy whip it out and whack off to me across the train then told me to "have a nice day sweetheart" is coloring my view- having had almost every single female friend experience that or similar in Philly- really effected me. Having a guy rape a girl in front of her boyfriend whom the attacker tied up and made watch at knife point, not once, but TWICE in an apartment complex three blocks away from me in Philly is coloring my viewpoint. Having 2 sessions with the school's counselor and in both sessions when I would start to allude to the fact I was raped on campus, have her steer the convo elsewhere- and have her purposely "forget" or "not be there" twice when I tried to make a third appointment- is coloring my view.

I volunteered at W.O.A.R. (women's organization against rape). It is in Philly- and despite its name- there were all sorts of sexual assault and domestic violence victims there- male, female, young or old. I'm certain that is giving me biased as I've been in and out of many a group therapy.

Heck, up here I know of 3 different times, three different workplaces that have swept sexual harassment under the rug- and managed to get away with it.

Did you grow up and go to high school here? (Jeez- did we go to the SAME high school? ha) In my high school people berated a girl who got pregnant her senior year until she ended up taking a million individual study courses- while pregnant- just so she could graduate early and get out of there. Now she has three kids and a great job- but she ALWAYS says she didn't think she'd amount to anything because of all the slut shaming she experienced when she got pregnant- and she says if it weren't for a lot of counseling she wouldn't have gotten the job she did.

I know another girl who- exchanged nudes with a guy. He shared hers. She tried to explain and understand why the fact HE ALSO TOOK AND SENT NUDES was less of a condemnation but no one gave a shit. She was called a slut at work, she was called a slut at school, and she had people constantly badgering her on facebook until she just closed it, changed her email, and eventually- moved away from here.

Sure- I'm putting "spin" on it I guess. I guess I don't know why you're focusing on you're own experience so much and ignoring what others may experience...so I'm going to leave you with this. This was posted on facebook this morning:
I have cited the author (I think) of the original post. While I think it is a little inflammatory- I think it illustrates what is happening here. Perhaps I'm wrong- and I don't mean to offend with it, just give you something to ponder.

quote:


Phoenix Calida:
Aside from the utter lack of thought that exists in "anti feminist" groups, I think the selfishness is the most appalling thing in this "movement". it's yet another example of how race, sexuality, and gender politics exist in a way that normalizes oppression.
"I don't need feminism because I'm not a victim"
"I don't like feminism because I've never been raped"
"I don't want feminism because my life is perfect"
Next time just say:
"I don't need feminism because in my personal life experiences, I've never been forced to critically contemplate oppressive power structures that are trying to kill me"
While we're at it, why Not tell cancer patients to avoid chemo because *you* don't need it?
why not advocate for birth control to be eliminated because your tubes are already tied?
maybe tell people in poverty to stop advocating for higher minimum wage because you make $18 an hour?
I mean really, if the entire world needs to be based around your anecdotal personal experience*, why stop with just feminism?

*- I changed this word because the way it was reading before was a lot nastier and I didn't want it come off that way.

Also- I've done a lot of reading on these things- from folks with experiences other than mine to just cold hard statistics from the census. I don't really think its my job to list all those for you and you can find them on your own and form your own opinion- if you're really interested in hearing the other side of it- or hearing from folks who might also "spin" this the same way I do.

Overall- I don't think we'll ever be in agreement on this topic. And thats ok. I still respect and appreciate your opinions- and I actually think your posts are excellent most of the time. I have no dog in that fight right now- and I have no idea what you posted "many years ago". Please don't assume my opinions are in line with that topic on this thread...

ETA- clarity.

ETA- Since I kinda think you're also asking how my very own personal experience has varied from yours with the word slut, here is this, as posted on Fet also:

I have felt slut shamed a great deal. For me, its often paired with my weight or the fact I'm a rape victim.

In high school...I remember eating a popsicle...innocently and an entire group of boys decided it would be funny to bring up the "fat girls give better head" joke. Which led to a "fat slut" nickname that followed me around despite being a virgin. I literally didn't eat popsicles for the REST of high school, still hesitate to eat them in public now.

In college- I had a roommate who would constantly talk about how gross casual sex was and how big other ladies vagina's must be because of it. The same roommate also made gross accusations about "Her outfit is asking for it" etc.

In adulthood a man I had JUST slept with (I had not even had time to talk to him about it) told me the reason I didn't achieve orgasm was because my vagina was "too fat" and I couldn't feel his dick, and I was just a stupid slut. (as if that is how vaginas or orgasms work...)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw

Oppression in this case refers to these things (this is just an example, far from a full list):
-Socially- women are not viewed, and are taught, their sexuality IS shameful and unlike that of a males.
-Trans women of color are murdered at an ALARMING rate this year- that has to do with the gender they identify with and feel they were born as, the fact that they feel (and so do I) they still are sexual beings AND the color of their skin, they were born as.
-There is still a huge wage gap- women are still only paid 78% of what men are- and that number has barely made any headway in a decade. While that doesn't directly correlate with slut- it shows that women are not taken as seriously, and to assume that doesn't translate to sexuality- is in my opinion- naive.
-The rape example I already used. Which effects BOTH sides of the fence.
-Females in the gaming industry are obviously being threatened into silence over a made up sex scandal. Gamergate- as incredibly stupid as it is, is one hell of a quagmire right now.
-Just last year a guy went on a killing rampage because he felt that they were all stupid sluts. He felt as though he deserved a "beautiful" girl simply for existing. He felt they "teased him" by being sexual beings, but not choosing to have sex with him.
-Nice guys everywhere insist they are rejected for being nice- but really...these women have a goddamn right to reject anyone they want- just like a man. And I'm guessing they aren't being rejected because they are nice. I'm guessing they are being rejected- for the most part- for reasonable things like compatibility issues.

Without getting into details on each point, in general, I disagree with your summation of each of these points except for the nice guys one. I'm not defending my points or arguing yours. I'm only finding it interesting that you and I - you and I especially, even, since we are not oceans or cultures apart - we're only a few miles from each other and only about one generation from each other, I think? - and yet, we see the same world events so differently. It's interesting academically.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
Kaliko, I can help with one. It's been a pet peeve of mine for some time: Wage inequality is a bit of mis-direction. Usually, when someone wants to skew the statistics, they include child-bearing/rearing years as money lost for ladies, without including the fact that motherhood has been a choice in this country for over 40 years.

The survey to which I refer, compares women, under 30 who have chosen to not have children that live in cities. They make 8% more than their male counterparts.

I could hazard a guess as to why but, there are many who would just swoop in with the usual attacks upon my ethics/morals/their view of my beliefs. So, I will refrain (but I will give you a hint: it has to do misandry).

Michael