RE: m f comparisions

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shiftyw -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 7:58:58 AM)
re: cooking... The cause of most good poisoning is lack of hand washing. Which basically means...fecal matter gets into your food. So cooking naked, as you can imagine, poses even more risk for that to happen. So...unless you're REAL special...

GoddessManko -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 8:04:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes Ok. Well, you have some sort of skin in that, simply because you have mentioned it, as I quoted. I don't think of upset as a particularly bad thing. Maybe annoys? Irks? If I don't care one way or another, I don't bring things up, so there is assumption on my part. Maybe the mere mention of apathy wasn't enough so I'll clarify. Full Definition of APATHY 1 : lack of feeling or emotion : impassiveness Hopefully now there is clarity. quote: I guess I don't understand this question. There was an entire day of submissive classes at the event I just taught at. None were geared specifically toward men or women. Are there really "how to sub" classes for boys only? Or girls only? I'm not sure which one we're supposed to have seen. This is where your experiences and that of others may be causing confusion. I'm sure many female subs attended your class the same way many female subs pay $250 an hour to get dommed by men. Sure, let's go with that. quote: I'm genuinely confused. I am not playing stupid. If the questions I'm posing are stupid, then I guess I am stupid. I just don't see this topic the same way you do, and I'm curious as to why you see it the way you do. I am not interested in making you feel anything towards me, either. And I don't follow the rest. Perhaps my brain is working against me today. shrugs smiles and nods

dreamlady -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 8:05:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: dreamlady A comment to the side, whether guidelines permit importing a (partial) post made on another thread to start a new thread. (?) I've certainly seen remarks spawn other threads plenty of times previously, I'm under the impression that it's the polite thing to do so as to not derail someone else's thread with a side conversation. Pondering it however, I do think you have a point, I should have included a link to the original in my first post so that everyone had access to all the context. My bad. In what way was my comment irrelevant to your thread, seeing as to how you did not even start it under the "Feisty Dialog" section? Show me, please, where my post content derailed your thread or how I encouraged such an action with any intent to derail. [:)] quote: ORIGINAL: dreamlady I can see importing a post by an already participating poster, not compelling somebody to be put on the defensive, non-consensually. I mention this because that other thread deals with the premise of consent from the starting gate. quote: ORIGINAL: [Per GotSteel] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof The philosophical burden of proof or onus (probandi) is the obligation on a party in an epistemic dispute to provide sufficient warrant for their position. You are alleging that an an opinion or remark made by another poster based on her personal experiences has to be justified with irrefutable proof. Good luck with that. Perhaps you had little to refute it with, but turning others' perspectives into an "epistemic dispute" would be at cross-purposes with having an open mind for information gathering, which is what your post is supposedly inviting. It would appear that having a hidden agenda to stir the pot into a debate (cum 'dispute') is contrary to having a meaningful, respectful discussion about this subject. quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: dreamlady If you are sincere about having an honest and open discussion about this matter in a non-adversarial manner, I would like to give my point of view, obviously from my own perspective as a straight female switch. It is not subject to debate. I don't see how we can possibly have an open and honest discussion if claims you're making are not open to discussion. My personal experiences are not open to debate, in that I did not share my pov in order to debate, defend or justify my position as being a valid personal perspective, wherein I placed emphasis on having an 'honest and open discussion. . .in a non-adversarial manner.' Anecdotal experiences are comparable for comparison mono a mono. Please do share your own, in that case. (Also see response right above this one.) Edit - Link to original topic source http://www.collarchat.com/m_4789295/mpage_1/tm.htm

littleladybug -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 8:32:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes LOL! Yes. This is where it gets interesting. There are generalizations that can be made between the sexes, in motivations and so on. These generalizations can be made without judgment calls, but it's hard for people to even notice when they are being judgy or offensive, thanks to their own closely held belief systems. The funny thing is, that while there are wild differences in the sexes in certain areas, very few of them are (in real life, as opposed to online) as different as they are presented here. As I was cooking non-naked last night, I was mentioning this thread to my man. As I was talking through it, I was thinking about this difference between "real life" and "online", specifically in terms of how things are presented. Speaking specifically about having a male sub come over to the house for a "trial" as to how he cleans. Realistically and practically, isn't that what I did with my man? Not in terms of cleaning, necessarily, but just generally, in showing him how I would be able to take care of his needs. Cooking, albeit clothed, was a huge one. With that being said, I did the same with him. The term "being accepted into service" or its other various incarnations-- I wonder if, practically, that is used as much in real life as online. I'm sure it is, to some extent, in every type of relationship (F/m, M/f, etc.). But, to the extent that I've seen it here or in other places online? I have my doubts. Which brings me back to my initial comments on this thread regarding my interest in this topic of "differences". Perhaps it is just simply a difference in presentation and not generally how things work out in the "real world".

quizzicalkitten -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 9:11:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shiftyw re: cooking... The cause of most good poisoning is lack of hand washing. Which basically means...fecal matter gets into your food. So cooking naked, as you can imagine, poses even more risk for that to happen. So...unless you're REAL special... I like tots forgot hand washing and using a toilet instead of the kitchen counters....was specifically a philly area thing.....

shiftyw -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 9:17:46 AM)
I'm just saying your ass is out, there is way more chance of contamination than when you're clothed. You asked the question, I'm answering it.

quizzicalkitten -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 9:24:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shiftyw I'm just saying your ass is out, there is way more chance of contamination than when you're clothed. You asked the question, I'm answering it. I also forgot the part of the process where I rub the food im cooking on my ass before putting it in the oven... Man you guys sure do cook differently.....[8\|]

GotSteel -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 9:32:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dreamlady In what way was my comment irrelevant to your thread, seeing as to how you did not even start it under the "Feisty Dialog" section? I think we have a misunderstanding here, my comments about derailment were about me starting this thread as a courtesy to another poster so that I did not derail their thread. Those comments were entirely about me and had nothing to do with you. As for the "Feisty Dialog" section, I didn't expect us to need it. I'm not behaving in a manner that requires it and unless someone wants to give me a mod hammer I cannot be reasonably expected to control the behavior of anyone else. quote: ORIGINAL: dreamlady Show me, please, where my post content derailed your thread or how I encouraged such an action with any intent to derail. [:)] I can't on account of that I've never made such a claim. quote: ORIGINAL: dreamlady You are alleging that an an opinion or remark made by another poster based on her personal experiences has to be justified with irrefutable proof. Good luck with that. Strawman

GotSteel -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 9:33:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten I also forgot the part of the process where I rub the food im cooking on my ass before putting it in the oven... Man you guys sure do cook differently.....[8\|] As long as it's before, after is the bad one...

dreamlady -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 9:56:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel I think we have a misunderstanding here, my comments about derailment were about me starting this thread as a courtesy to another poster so that I did not derail their thread. Those comments were entirely about me and had nothing to do with you. Okay, then we're good. quote: As for the "Feisty Dialog" section, I didn't expect us to need it. I'm not behaving in a manner that requires it and unless someone wants to give me a mod hammer I cannot be reasonably expected to control the behavior of anyone else. I was going by these remarks of yours (which you don't need to explain, as others reading may have gotten a different impression): quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel So can you take a minute, organize your thoughts and come up with an argument that does not rely upon name calling or emotional coercion to prop it up? quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel Assertions don't need discrediting, they have no credit: "Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur". This has been me giving you the opportunity to meet your burden of proof and thus gain credit for your assertion. . . . quote: Strawman Which points out: "The so-called typical 'attacking a straw man' argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ('knock down a straw man') instead of the original proposition.[2][3] "This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged emotional issues where a fiery, entertaining 'battle' and the defeat of an 'enemy' may be more valued than critical thinking or understanding both sides of the issue." I wasn't aware this was a "polemical debate" involving "opponents", or a "battle" with an "enemy" or some sort of posting contest. Nor on the other thread referenced either. [8\|]

BitaTruble -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 9:59:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten I also forgot the part of the process where I rub the food im cooking on my ass before putting it in the oven... Man you guys sure do cook differently.....[8\|] Ha! I love home cooks. They make me chuckle. Chef

GotSteel -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 10:46:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dreamlady Perhaps you had little to refute it with... Assertions are the easiest of things to refute, all it takes is a contrary assertion. All it takes to positively refute "is so" is "nuh-uh". quote: ORIGINAL: dreamlady ...but turning others' perspectives into an "epistemic dispute" would be at cross-purposes with having an open mind for information gathering, which is what your post is supposedly inviting. It would appear that having a hidden agenda to stir the pot into a debate (cum 'dispute') is contrary to having a meaningful, respectful discussion about this subject. Logic relies on data, whenever we are drawing conclusions it's imperative that not only the logic but the data that's driving that logic be open to examination. quote: ORIGINAL: dreamlady My personal experiences are not open to debate... In order for us to have an open and honest discussion, they need to be. quote: ORIGINAL: dreamlady ...in that I did not share my pov in order to debate, defend or justify my position as being a valid personal perspective, wherein I placed emphasis on having an 'honest and open discussion. . .in a non-adversarial manner.' On the contrary it seems to me as though your personal experiences are being used to make some fairly charged claims such as: "I see fetishists as a subset of the do-me male sub who reverses the active/receptive polarity into you-must-have-me-do-these-things-to-you, as fetish objectification." Is that not what's happening here? quote: ORIGINAL: dreamlady Anecdotal experiences are comparable for comparison mono a mono. Please do share your own, in that case. (Also see response right above this one.) Epistemology has brought us a good deal farther than that. quote: ORIGINAL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases.[1][2] Anecdotal evidence is considered dubious support of a generalized claim; it is, however, perfectly acceptable for claims regarding a particular instance. Anecdotal evidence is no more than a type description (i.e., short narrative), and is often confused in discussions with its weight, or other considerations, as to the purpose(s) for which it is used. This is true regardless of the veracity of individual claims.[3][4][5] The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, such as evidence-based medicine, which are types of formal accounts. Some anecdotal evidence does not qualify as scientific evidence because its nature prevents it from being investigated using the scientific method. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is an informal fallacy and is sometimes referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc. Compare with hasty generalization). Anecdotal evidence is not necessarily representative of a "typical" experience; in fact, human cognitive biases such as confirmation bias mean that exceptional or confirmatory anecdotes are much more likely to be remembered. Accurate determination of whether an anecdote is "typical" requires statistical evidence.[6][7] Hopefully this little summery sufficiently illuminates some of the reasons why it's imperative to question the validity and reliability of these experiences. Simply trading these experiences back and forth like nuh-uh's and is-so's easily has the potential to be equally unproductive. quote: ORIGINAL: dreamlady Edit - Link to original topic source http://www.collarchat.com/m_4789295/mpage_1/tm.htm Thank you for digging that up.

NookieNotes -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 10:51:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littleladybug Which brings me back to my initial comments on this thread regarding my interest in this topic of "differences". Perhaps it is just simply a difference in presentation and not generally how things work out in the "real world". Yes, this is partially what I'm thinking.

littleladybug -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 11:11:17 AM)
I'd almost apologize for bringing the cooking issue up, but it sure has hell has brought up some interesting comments. I was thinking though, in terms of safety... cooking naked no doubt has nothing on "licking a floor clean". I shudder to think about what might be on a floor and question why someone would think this would be a good idea. Of course, that comment could be pure hyperbole, which goes back to the idea that "online" and "real life" are very different in terms of how people conduct themselves.

dreamlady -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 11:11:32 AM)
You and I must not see eye-to-eye on what debate is. For some, it's their hobby. It isn't one of mine. I don't debate on what my personal experiences have been, but I am ordinarily open to discussing them. Two separate modalities. Here, I'll spell it out for your benefit. I do not give my consent to argue with others over whether their experiences or opinion based upon their personal experiences hold greater validity than my own. I also reserve the right to respond or not respond. . .within my own timeframe. For instance, NookieNotes has had experiences which vary from my own or from what I've observed of submissives. There's nothing to refute about it, her experiences are her own. By all means, ask for whatever clarification(s) you need. But going around dissing others does not belong in this section (just speaking in general) since this isn't the "Feisty" forum. I was merely making it clear that I did not wish to start spinning my wheels and was not consenting to head off in that direction.

GotSteel -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 11:20:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dreamlady I wasn't aware this was a "polemical debate" involving "opponents", or a "battle" with an "enemy" or some sort of posting contest. Nor on the other thread referenced either. [8\|] I wasn't either. quote: ORIGINAL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man "This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged emotional issues where a fiery, entertaining 'battle' and the defeat of an 'enemy' may be more valued than critical thinking or understanding both sides of the issue." Giving a frequent circumstance/motivation for the fallacy is not the same as claiming this is the only circumstance/reason for the fallacy. You seem to be hung up on some differentiation between debate and discussion. Certainly we're not in a formal debate, there's no panel of judges holding up scores or tallying votes etc. As such any use of the word debate must be in the informal sense. Thus I consider an informal debate wherein the object is to reconcile our positions through discourse to be identical to a productive discussion on anything where we are in less than complete agreement. Are you thinking something different?

sexyred1 -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 11:22:15 AM)
Interesting thread. Regarding apathy: if someone is really indifferent to a topic, they don't post defensively or at all. Regarding male subs and presentation: as a sub female seeking a male dominant, I also get many requests from sub men offering to come over and clean my apartment with no reciprocal activity from me. I have never considered doing that for anyone and would never do so. When I ventured to ask these sub men why they would contact a female sub and volunteer to clean, they all said the same thing: "i think you are hot and want to make your life easier". Ignoring the fact that I am not their target audience in any way other than gender.

quizzicalkitten -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 11:33:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littleladybug I'd almost apologize for bringing the cooking issue up, but it sure has hell has brought up some interesting comments. I was thinking though, in terms of safety... cooking naked no doubt has nothing on "licking a floor clean". I shudder to think about what might be on a floor and question why someone would think this would be a good idea. Of course, that comment could be pure hyperbole, which goes back to the idea that "online" and "real life" are very different in terms of how people conduct themselves. Then its a damn amazingly good thing your not my sub.. Id see a lot of ducktape needing to be purchased.... As for what me and my boys do... Its done safely (like the floor already being cleaned with a non toxic pet safe cleaner I know scary that I think of things like this as I fulfill a fantasy of theirs) and most importantly consensually.. Im not an ssc player... thats for castle realmers.. We are rack or prick all the way in my house. And the dig was nice.. And people like you and shifty are exactly the reason why I dont take on female subs.

Lucylastic -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 11:49:21 AM)
Damn someone sounds like a male misogynist here...... PS yes shifty the CCC includes the C word:) Its an old insult from years ago.

littleladybug -> RE: m f comparisions (3/13/2015 12:07:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten Then its a damn amazingly good thing your not my sub.. Id see a lot of ducktape needing to be purchased.... Don't doubt that the feeling is mutual. quote: ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten Im not an ssc player... thats for castle realmers.. We are rack or prick all the way in my house. Fabulous to know. This has to do with the discussion at hand, how? quote: ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten And people like you and shifty are exactly the reason why I dont take on female subs. Why is that? What is it, specifically, about what you see of me that is so typical of female subs? Is there trouble with someone having limits? Is there trouble with someone who is vocal about their likes and dislikes? Are male subs just more malleable? I'm honestly interested in this. From day one on this site, I've seen female dominants complaining about male subs. And, frankly, I'm curious as to whether this is something that is an "online" thing, or if it really translates into day-to-day life. I've got no skin in this game. I'm just looking at it from the perspective of someone who is trying to understand.

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