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Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 1:44:01 AM

tweakabelle

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From: Sydney Australia
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Yesterday two Australian drug traffickers were executed by firing squad in Indonesia. They had been convicted of being the ringleaders in a failed plot to import over 8 kgs of heroin into Australia after the Australian police alerted the Indonesian police of their plans. Many Australians saw their deaths as particularly pointless as, during the 10 or so years between conviction and execution, both had displayed convincing signs of regret and rehabilitation, one becoming a Christian pastor and the other a talented artist. Both helped innumerable other prisoners by running computer and literacy classes.

This editorial in the Sydney Morning Herald captured the feelings of most Australians:
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/smh-editorial/mankind-diminished-by-barbarism-in-the-cause-of-political-expediency-20150429-1mvkng.html

For another perspective on this issue: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/why-andrew-chan-and-myuran-sukumaran-never-stood-a-chance-20150430-1mwirr.html
Countries other than Australia have fared much worse in the War on Drugs. Mexico has lost over 100.000 people. Many other Central and South American countries have similar stories eg Guatemala, Columbia. The US prison system is bursting with prisoners on drug related charges and sentences.

This case raises questions for all countries that have drug problems and all countries that still utilise the death penalty. Among those questions are:

What is achieved when rehabilitated prisoners are executed?
Is it acceptable that the death penalty is used when, as in this case, retribution appears to be the sole motive?
Are these two young men merely two more casualties of the War on Drugs?
If the aim of the war on drugs is ultimately to save lives, how many have to die before we admit it is a total failure?
Does anyone believe that these executions will affect the drug trade?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/30/2015 1:45:12 AM >

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RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 4:34:13 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Yesterday two Australian drug traffickers were executed by firing squad in Indonesia. They had been convicted of being the ringleaders in a failed plot to import over 8 kgs of heroin into Australia after the Australian police alerted the Indonesian police of their plans. Many Australians saw their deaths as particularly pointless as, during the 10 or so years between conviction and execution, both had displayed convincing signs of regret and rehabilitation, one becoming a Christian pastor and the other a talented artist. Both helped innumerable other prisoners by running computer and literacy classes.

This editorial in the Sydney Morning Herald captured the feelings of most Australians:
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/smh-editorial/mankind-diminished-by-barbarism-in-the-cause-of-political-expediency-20150429-1mvkng.html

For another perspective on this issue: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/why-andrew-chan-and-myuran-sukumaran-never-stood-a-chance-20150430-1mwirr.html
Countries other than Australia have fared much worse in the War on Drugs. Mexico has lost over 100.000 people. Many other Central and South American countries have similar stories eg Guatemala, Columbia. The US prison system is bursting with prisoners on drug related charges and sentences.

This case raises questions for all countries that have drug problems and all countries that still utilise the death penalty. Among those questions are:

What is achieved when rehabilitated prisoners are executed?
Is it acceptable that the death penalty is used when, as in this case, retribution appears to be the sole motive?
Are these two young men merely two more casualties of the War on Drugs?
If the aim of the war on drugs is ultimately to save lives, how many have to die before we admit it is a total failure?
Does anyone believe that these executions will affect the drug trade?

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time-----Baretta

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 2

RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 5:13:03 AM

subrob1967

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The death penalty is the ultimate recidivism denier. I say kill em all, there are too many dopers polluting my earth.

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Post #: 3

RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 5:14:08 AM

DaddySatyr

Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline

First, Bama: Thanks for re-posting this.

Now, let's play ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

This case raises questions for all countries that have drug problems and all countries that still utilise the death penalty. Among those questions are:

What is achieved when rehabilitated prisoners are executed?

It is not unheard of for convicts to pretend to be rehabilitated just to get out of jail (who could blame them) so that they can go back to "work". The OP mentions that one is a minister and one is a painter. Fred Phelps was a minister and Hitler was a painter. So fucking what?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Is it acceptable that the death penalty is used when, as in this case, retribution appears to be the sole motive?

Try as I might, I am having a hard time trying to gin up some sympathy for two people that were moving enough product to either completely destroy a few lives (Murder, in my mind) or do some real damage to a LOT of others (all the problems that drugs and addiction bring to people who indulge and their loved ones).

I know that Indonesia has a fairly sizable Muslim population. Do their laws in any way, reflect Sharia law? Maybe these two can serve as a cautionary tale for others? Even if the laws aren't based in Sharia law, I'm assuming that the executions were legally carried out under Indonesian law. Who am I to try to dictate how the people in Indonesia live when their laws don't affect me?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Are these two young men merely two more casualties of the War on Drugs?

Nope. They're not innocent victims. They set out to make a metric shit ton of money, not caring about the damage they did to others in the process. In this country, that would fall under "Depraved Indifference" Murder. Greed is a bitch and these guys seemed to have had dreams that far surpassed the goals of Avarice. Fuck 'em.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
If the aim of the war on drugs is ultimately to save lives, how many have to die before we admit it is a total failure?

There's two ways to go with this. First, I think we need to decide if we want to have a war on drugs vís-à-vís whether or not people have the right to poison their bodies and kill themselves in the name of "fun". I semi-support this idea, in principle but I temper that with knowing the damage that drugs and addiction do; not only to the dope heads but to the people around them.

Then, if we decide that we do want to eradicate drugs, we have to decide if the war on drugs is a good way to accomplish the goal. If we executed every dealer that was dealing anything over a proscribed quantity and really got people on board with destroying the supply, it might, eventually, work.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Does anyone believe that these executions will affect the drug trade?

I don't think only two executions will be very effective but if we decide drugs need to be eradicated, it's a start.

These guys weren't selling a few joints to their friends or a few grams to feed their own habit or support their family. They had 8 Kilos (over 16 lbs. for those of you in Poughkeepsie) of HEROIN . That's not quite the "harmless" drug that weed heads claim their drug of choice to be. These men were the same kind of greedy pricks that we hear demonized, here, every day. They will stop at nothing - even killing people - to get their money. Hangin's too good for 'em.

Michael

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Post #: 4

RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 5:17:50 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

The death penalty is the ultimate recidivism denier. I say kill em all, there are too many dopers polluting my earth.

I wasn't aware it was your earth....do you share it with Bama or is it just values the two of you share ?

I'm asking because I'm a little confused,here in america we are still in the ghastly business of state sanctioned murder....but we reserve this penalty for only the worst of the worst killings.Certainly we don't put people to death for drug offences and yet here are the two of you cheer leading for these murders.

I've promised someone I would try to be less judgmental in my posting style but Job himself would have a hard time appearing patient in the face of the last two posts

Edited to add: A new voice joined the"party".
There are times when one knows one s right just by looking out across the divide and seeing who might be lined up against you,figuratively speaking.
Never have I felt so damm right,never have I felt so comfortable with the "opposition" side

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 4/30/2015 5:21:48 AM >

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to subrob1967)

Post #: 5

RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 5:26:36 AM

BamaD

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Joined: 2/27/2005
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It is not unheard of for convicts to pretend to be rehabilitated just to get out of jail (who could blame them) so that they can go back to "work". The OP mentions that one is a minister and one is a painter. Fred Phelps was a minister and Hitler was a painter. So fucking what?

When I worked for the sheriffs office there was a judge who tempered sentencing for people who "got religion" so lots of prisoners started carrying Bibles around with them.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)

Post #: 6

RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 5:30:28 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

When one comes to Jesus does Jesus ask why they came ?

Or does he accept them with open arms back into the flock.

Seems there might have been a parable or two on that very subject in the very book you are referring to

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 7

RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 6:41:56 AM

Aylee

Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

When one comes to Jesus does Jesus ask why they came ?

Or does he accept them with open arms back into the flock.

Seems there might have been a parable or two on that very subject in the very book you are referring to

IIRC Jebus was not a hippy-dippy passive non-judgmental friend.

Let's see. . . when Peter did the "Come to Jebus" thing, he got ignored, then was completely heartbroken while he showed/talked about how much he repented, and THEN Jebus told him that he was forgiven but going to have a shi^^y death.

So, hoops yes. Open arms. . . not so much.

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

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RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 6:53:57 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

When one comes to Jesus does Jesus ask why they came ?

Or does he accept them with open arms back into the flock.

Seems there might have been a parable or two on that very subject in the very book you are referring to

IIRC Jebus was not a hippy-dippy passive non-judgmental friend.

Let's see. . . when Peter did the "Come to Jebus" thing, he got ignored, then was completely heartbroken while he showed/talked about how much he repented, and THEN Jebus told him that he was forgiven but going to have a shi^^y death.

So, hoops yes. Open arms. . . not so much.

Thanks for the repost Aylee. They were coming to Jesus, they were putting on a show for the judge.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 9

RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 7:06:57 AM

kdsub

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It seems to me most people sentenced to death find religion... They become perfect angels...It can't hurt.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 10

RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 7:07:53 AM

slvemike4u

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From: United States
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Did Jesus care why they came ?
Or did he take the time to welcome the prodigal son back....even though the prodigal son had squandered all of his possessions,including the share of his inheritance that he asked his father for.

Yet the father welcomed him back.....true Christianity is a bitch.

To see one of our foremost proselytizers submit a post in which he supports the death penalty bends the irony meter..

All of this though could have been avoided had the mother of these two boys simply availed herself of the abortion option,thereby saving saytr the trouble of contorting his values

Not for nothing but we have Saytr thanking Bama for quoting tweak.....bama thanking aylee for quoting me......seems to me,only my opinion,but if you block/hide someone maybe you should refrain from engaging altogether.

If nothing else it sets my funny bone a tingling

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 11

RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 7:18:51 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

It seems to me most people sentenced to death find religion... They become perfect angels...It can't hurt.

Butch

People find religion in nursing homes and in,when possible,intensive care units.

Proximity to death will do that.....so I don't think it has as much to do with the quality of the person as much as feeling deaths breath on one's shoulders.

They say there are no atheists in foxholes too.....i'm not going to question the strength of that conversion either .

I hope my belief system stays the same as I get closer,but who am I to predict what I might do tomorrow let along some years from now

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 12

RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 7:19:34 AM

Aylee

Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

What is achieved when rehabilitated prisoners are executed?
Is it acceptable that the death penalty is used when, as in this case, retribution appears to be the sole motive?
Are these two young men merely two more casualties of the War on Drugs?
If the aim of the war on drugs is ultimately to save lives, how many have to die before we admit it is a total failure?
Does anyone believe that these executions will affect the drug trade?

Some of us do not think that criminals are just poor misunderstood individuals that need a little extra understanding. Some of us think that they are very bad people.
I doubt it would matter to you what the motive for the death penalty is so this is really a moot question.
Merely casualties? No they aided and abetted the destruction of hundreds of lives. (See not just poor misunderstood individuals.)
Is it actually a failure? We cannot really say because we do not know what would have happened without the War on Drugs.
These two affect the drug trade? Not so much. If this happened EVERY TIME, then yes, I think that it eventually would.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 13

RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 7:21:11 AM

kdsub

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Status: offline

yep I agree... finding religion is not proof of rehabilitation...but fear of death and just covering bases and dotting I's.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 14

RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 7:26:41 AM

hot4bondage

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These executions might have made a few people feel some fleeting sense of vengeance, but they won't decrease supply and demand. Yeah, those guys weren't model citizens. Neither was Al Capone. But they didn't create the black market. We did. We're treating health problems with law enforcement. How would you help a friend quit smoking? Put him in a jail cell? Make him unemployable? Kill the Marlboro Man? Of course not.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 15

RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 7:40:01 AM

slvemike4u

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From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage

These executions might have made a few people feel some fleeting sense of vengeance, but they won't decrease supply and demand. Yeah, those guys weren't model citizens. Neither was Al Capone. But they didn't create the black market. We did. We're treating health problems with law enforcement. How would you help a friend quit smoking? Put him in a jail cell? Make him unemployable? Kill the Marlboro Man? Of course not.

The war on drugs is an abject failure,I would be interested to hear whether or not those who are for these executions will agree with that simple statement.

Should one agree that the war is/was/will continue to be,an abject failure....than justifying these executions gets even harder to do.

Incarceration for drug offences has succeeded in accomplishing nothing save a bloated prison population.

We got out of Viet Nam,we've even learned to quietly admit that we got our asses handed to us....when will we retreat from this noghtmare,when will we learn to admit we got beat ?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to hot4bondage)

Post #: 16

RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 7:55:32 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

The war on drugs is an abject failure,I would be interested to hear whether or not those who are for these executions will agree with that simple statement.

Why is is a failure? Without the efforts of drug enforcement the drug problem could be ten times worse. So objectively it could be a huge success at at least holding back the flood of drugs that could addict and kill many more thousands. I would say this way of looking at it is closer to the truth than yours. Neither of us know for sure.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/30/2015 8:01:23 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 17

RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 8:00:36 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

When one comes to Jesus does Jesus ask why they came ?

Or does he accept them with open arms back into the flock.

Seems there might have been a parable or two on that very subject in the very book you are referring to

These two werent coming to Jesus, they were coming to Darwin

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 18

RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 8:00:56 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

The war on drugs is an abject failure,I would be interested to hear whether or not those who are for these executions will agree with that simple statement.

Why is is a failure? Without the efforts of drug enforcement the drug problem could be ten times worse. So objectively it could be a huge success at at least holding back the flood of drugs that could addict and kill many more thousands. I would say this way of looking at it is closer to the true than yours. Neither of us know for sure.

Butch
[/quoteAnd I would,respectfully ,disagree butch .

I don't think the laws have stopped those whom have chosen to use....and I think it's a stretch to say absent certain laws someone with a well developed sense of self would now decide that he wants to stick a needle in his arm

I think that argument is full of holes.....but that's okay,thats why it's a horse race,if we both agreed it would be a very boring morning ,lol

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 19

RE: Two more pointless deaths in the War on Drugs - 4/30/2015 8:50:52 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

It seems that someone thinks that it's a successful strategy that many tens of thousands of people actually die in the Narco Wars in Mexico Guatelmala etc to prevent the " flood of drugs that could addict and kill many more thousands."

Can't even do basic arithmetic so it's no surprise that thinking for themselves is a bit too much to ask.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/30/2015 8:54:57 AM >

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Post #: 20

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