RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (Full Version)

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MercTech -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/23/2015 3:12:35 PM)

When the country was just getting organized; English, German, and Dutch were the main languages. There was some debate but the final ruling was that all laws and congressional debates would be in English. So English became the defacto official language as that is the language of legal documents.

Yet, the U.S. has cultures that vary greatly from region to region. Some places you have to have a bit of French to get by (Acadian French may just be another language when compared to Continental French). Some places you need a bit of Spanish. Some places you need a Danish dictionary to translate the fellow cursing at his car. And, you really don't want to try to figure out pidgin gullah without a translator.

Back in the 60s; GM decided to give IQ tests to all employees. An attempt at trying to figure out what to look for in new hires for what level in their organization. Hmm, the bell curve didn't work out to give any indication as their was a bell curve variance at every level. Then, they gave English proficiency tests. Their bottom line for the biggest difference in top executive levels and bottom tier labor was "the ability to communicate in the English language". Or, you need plenty of hot are ability to get to the top. <snark>

If you can think and make your thoughts understood in the major language of your culture; you can succeed. If you are insisting on heavy dialect or insist on using ghetto speak; it is hard to be taken seriously by the mainstream culture. Ebonics, leetspeak, textspeak, or field hand mushmouth will get a person ignored at light speed in business and industry.




Lucylastic -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 4:17:47 AM)

WASHINGTON -- The Republican presidential candidates frequently employ harsh rhetoric to discuss immigration, accusing immigrants of failing to assimilate and integrate into American society. But an extensive report released this week debunks their claims, finding that immigrants make great efforts to learn English and adopt American values and customs, and that subsequent generations are entirely integrated.

The report, published on Monday by the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine (http://www.nap.edu/read/21746/chapter/1#ix) and compiled by a panel of prominent immigration scholars, defines integration as the process by which immigrants "become American," adopting similar values and customs of native-born Americans and achieving similar socioeconomic outcomes. The research concludes that “across all measurable outcomes, integration increases over time, with immigrants becoming more like the native-born with more time in the country, and with the second and third generations becoming more like other native-born Americans than their parents were.”

Among its specific findings: immigrants and their children do learn English -- and, contrary to GOP candidates' scaremongering, immigrants are actually less likely to commit crimes than the average American.

Learning English

Politicians frequently chide immigrants for not learning English. During CNN’s Republican presidential debate last week, Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) -- actually one of the GOP’s more moderate voices on immigration -- said he opposes other Republicans’ proposals to deport all 11 million undocumented immigrants in the U.S., but said they should learn English to remain in the country.

“They can come here, but they should learn to speak our language,” he said. He then quipped: “I don’t speak it very well, but look how far I’ve come.”
.
The importance of learning English is a common refrain in conversations about undocumented immigrants. Even candidates who support immigration reform, like Graham, former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush (R) and Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), say that a pathway to citizenship for undocumented immigrants should include a requirement that they learn English.

While the new report acknowledges that immigrants often speak their native language at home, it also found that a majority of them are in fact learning English, or already know it. Sixty-six percent of immigrants who speak a foreign language at home also can speak English "very well" or "well,” according to the research.

“Today’s immigrants are actually learning English faster than their predecessors,” the report says, in part because many immigrants come from countries where English is already widely used or taught in schools.

Thirty-eight percent of new legal immigrants took a class in English before coming to the United States, according to research cited in the report. And almost all immigrants have “consumed at least one form of English language media prior to departure,” which also helps improve their knowledge of the language.

In general, the children of immigrants are learning English at faster rates today than in previous generations, the report says. Typically, the grandchildren of immigrants to the U.S. and their descendants only know how to speak English.


Crime

Another Republican allegation against immigrants is that they create more crime. Famously, reality television star and real estate mogul Donald Trump kicked off his presidential campaign this year by calling undocumented immigrants from Mexico "rapists" and accusing them of “bringing crime.” On the campaign trail, he has repeatedly brought up the murder of Kathryn Steinle, a San Francisco woman killed by an undocumented immigrant, as evidence of rising crime committed by immigrants.

But this “immigrant crime wave” is a myth, according to this week’s report. Researchers found that crime rates in immigrant communities are much lower than national averages. Immigrants are “much less likely” to commit crimes, and communities with high immigrant populations have lower crime rates than “comparable non-immigrant neighborhoods.” Additionally, immigrants have lower rates of incarceration than the average population, even after including immigrants who are in jail for violating immigration laws.




Lucylastic -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 4:18:51 AM)

http://www.nap.edu/read/21746/chapter/1#ix
for the link to the study online




Greta75 -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 4:34:32 AM)

quote:

No, it doesn't. If a person does not speak English, why should they be forced to learn English?

I really really really do not understand this point of view from Libs, honestly... it's like...., I don't see anything wrong for example, if I want citizenship in Japan, I should learn Japanese if I want citizenship in Spain, I should learn Spanish!

It's call assimilating. It should be compulsory. New immigrants should be capable of communicating with the locals as a condition to live in that country! For a simple reason, like if you go to Korea for example, nothing is in English, everything is in Korean! Why shouldn't someone who wants citizenship in Korea, be compulsory to learn Korean. Imagine their tax forms, and everything is gonna be in Korean!

Is that unreasonable?





Greta75 -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 4:36:48 AM)

quote:

finding that immigrants make great efforts to learn English and adopt American values and customs, and that subsequent generations are entirely integrated.

Perfect reason why English should be compulsory for immigrants. Since they are already making efforts to learn it. So there should be no problems.




MS4S -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 4:41:21 AM)

I'm latino who started off speaking English before I mastered Spanish and think English should come first here in the United Sates while a second language in other countries.

Now does proper English trump slang using English-Hmmm That's to be debated




Greta75 -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 4:42:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Since you claim your purpose is to facilitate communication why pick english? Why not esperanto?

I didn't know Spanish is the majority language in the US. I had the impression it's number 2. And I didn't know they teach Maths, Science, Geography, History etc in Spanish.

If Spanish was indeed the majority language of the US, then by all means, make it Spanish!




Greta75 -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 4:43:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Why do you think all native americans speak the same language?

How do different tribes communicate with each other?




thompsonx -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 6:26:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

No, it doesn't. If a person does not speak English, why should they be forced to learn English?

I really really really do not understand this point of view from Libs, honestly... it's like...., I don't see anything wrong for example, if I want citizenship in Japan, I should learn Japanese if I want citizenship in Spain, I should learn Spanish!

It's call assimilating. It should be compulsory. New immigrants should be capable of communicating with the locals as a condition to live in that country! For a simple reason, like if you go to Korea for example, nothing is in English, everything is in Korean! Why shouldn't someone who wants citizenship in Korea, be compulsory to learn Korean. Imagine their tax forms, and everything is gonna be in Korean!

Is that unreasonable?




The countries you mention have national languages. The u.s. does not. Why that is so difficult for you to understand might have to do with your limited intelligence or perhaps your agenda...only you know which.




thompsonx -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 6:28:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Since you claim your purpose is to facilitate communication why pick english? Why not esperanto?

I didn't know Spanish is the majority language in the US. I had the impression it's number 2. And I didn't know they teach Maths, Science, Geography, History etc in Spanish.

If Spanish was indeed the majority language of the US, then by all means, make it Spanish!


Do you just open your mouth to change feet?
If google works on your computer you might check and see if it thinks esperanto is spanish.




thompsonx -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 6:31:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Why do you think all native americans speak the same language?

How do different tribes communicate with each other?



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blnymph -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 6:36:14 AM)

There have been "national language" policies elsewhere (and still are) and the consequences for communities and individuals have been and can be severe.

France has established French - defined as the variety used in Paris - as the only language to be used in 1789 - this led to suppression of all minority languages within France (Occitan - extinct now, Breton, Basque, Catalan, Corsican Italian, Alsatian German, Flemish) - the individuals were forbidden to communicate using these languages in public, publish texts (papers, books), use in correspondence with authorities, use at school. French postal authorities denied delivery of post cards with Breton addresses and texts.

The attempts of suppressing the Russian language had an important part of what the situation is in the Ukraine now.

So making (any) one language "official" should be considered with great caution and wisdom - besides multi-lingualism can be an advantage for communities and individuals too - see Switzerland with 4 languages (most Swiss educated in and speaking at least two), or lately South Tyrol where - after long suppression of German and Ladin now turned into official protection - bilinguals are now sought after in German speaking countries as well as Italy for their abilities to communicate with both.





kdsub -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 9:04:20 AM)

Requiring a working knowledge of English for citizenship and a common language for legal documents is a far cry from suppressing a native dialect.

I haven't read where anyone wants people to only speak English.... But only that they understand and can communicate in English if necessary as a requirement for citizenship.

Butch




Greta75 -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 9:32:16 AM)

quote:

the individuals were forbidden to communicate using these languages in public


You know what else my country do to fix this crazy paranoia problem? Guess what else is compulsory in school? English compulsory first language.

Depending on your ethnic background, you must have a compulsory second language inline with your background. So if you are Italian, your compulsory second language is Italian. If you are french, your compulsory second language is french. If you are Chinese, it's Mandarin. Etc. Etc. They don't want people to lose the use of their mother tongues.

There is no reason why there cannot be a compulsory first language implemented, without fearing that it would oppress all other languages.





BamaD -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 9:41:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

finding that immigrants make great efforts to learn English and adopt American values and customs, and that subsequent generations are entirely integrated.

Perfect reason why English should be compulsory for immigrants. Since they are already making efforts to learn it. So there should be no problems.

This was about the traditional immigrants. The new wave from Latin America, particularly the illegals, demand that we adapt to them, many even demanding the return of Ca and the southwest to Mexico.




BamaD -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 9:44:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MS4S

I'm latino who started off speaking English before I mastered Spanish and think English should come first here in the United Sates while a second language in other countries.

Now does proper English trump slang using English-Hmmm That's to be debated

Slang in fine in it's place. However when it is used in a business or formal setting it creats a negative impression of the speaker.




BamaD -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 9:46:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Since you claim your purpose is to facilitate communication why pick english? Why not esperanto?

I didn't know Spanish is the majority language in the US. I had the impression it's number 2. And I didn't know they teach Maths, Science, Geography, History etc in Spanish.

If Spanish was indeed the majority language of the US, then by all means, make it Spanish!

With esperanto you have a made up language which nobody uses, you might as well make Latin the official language, except that it is assosiated with white people so we can't have that.(sarcasm font off)




BamaD -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 9:51:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Why do you think all native americans speak the same language?

How do different tribes communicate with each other?


I am afraid he is right on this, Sioux had little or nothing in common with Iroquois. This wasn't a problem as the Sioux lived on the great plains and the Iroquois lived in New England. Today they communicate with each other in English. It is completly understandable that you would not know this.




BamaD -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 9:56:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

There have been "national language" policies elsewhere (and still are) and the consequences for communities and individuals have been and can be severe.

France has established French - defined as the variety used in Paris - as the only language to be used in 1789 - this led to suppression of all minority languages within France (Occitan - extinct now, Breton, Basque, Catalan, Corsican Italian, Alsatian German, Flemish) - the individuals were forbidden to communicate using these languages in public, publish texts (papers, books), use in correspondence with authorities, use at school. French postal authorities denied delivery of post cards with Breton addresses and texts.

The attempts of suppressing the Russian language had an important part of what the situation is in the Ukraine now.

So making (any) one language "official" should be considered with great caution and wisdom - besides multi-lingualism can be an advantage for communities and individuals too - see Switzerland with 4 languages (most Swiss educated in and speaking at least two), or lately South Tyrol where - after long suppression of German and Ladin now turned into official protection - bilinguals are now sought after in German speaking countries as well as Italy for their abilities to communicate with both.



Fortunately we don't live in France, Qubec, or the Ukraine. Any attempt to suppress languages other than English, should it be made the official language, would indeed be a violation of the 1st Amendment freedom of speach and would land the offender in deep doo doo




blnymph -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 10:05:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

There is no reason why there cannot be a compulsory first language implemented, without fearing that it would oppress all other languages.




personally I would not mind that implementing a lingua franca without oppressing the use of others - in many post-colonial countries in Africa and Asia this was successfully done and has proved very useful.

I was just giving you a few examples where and when it was done with the purpose to suppress other languages.

The decline of Native American languages in favour of 3-5 post-columbian languages is the perfect example that not much active oppression is needed to make minority languages vanish - there are other examples too: the decline of Irish in Ireland, Coptic in Egypt, and many many more all over the globe





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