RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US?

RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (Full Version)

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BamaD -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 10:33:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 There is no reason why there cannot be a compulsory first language implemented, without fearing that it would oppress all other languages. personally I would not mind that implementing a lingua franca without oppressing the use of others - in many post-colonial countries in Africa and Asia this was successfully done and has proved very useful. I was just giving you a few examples where and when it was done with the purpose to suppress other languages. The decline of Native American languages in favour of 3-5 post-columbian languages is the perfect example that not much active oppression is needed to make minority languages vanish - there are other examples too: the decline of Irish in Ireland, Coptic in Egypt, and many many more all over the globe Like Latin, languages fall out of use, if the native speakers stop using it that is one thing, banning it is something else. Admittedly Native American languages were suppressed. This does not conflict with what I said earlier as things have changed a lot. At that time blacks participated in the virtual genocide of Indians right along with white people. US society is vastly different than it was then.

blnymph -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 10:58:34 AM)
I was referring to a state authority proclaiming a language "official" and its implications. The process of an ethnic or social group shifting from a minority language to a majority one happens any way within a few generations without any need of state regulation if there is an advantage with it - from easier communication with the immediate surroundings to a gain in prestige or economic advantages. btw Latin is (not yet) out of use ... only well disguised. The text I just wrote above contains about 20 words of Latin

BamaD -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 11:08:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph I was referring to a state authority proclaiming a language "official" and its implications. The process of an ethnic or social group shifting from a minority language to a majority one happens any way within a few generations without any need of state regulation if there is an advantage with it - from easier communication with the immediate surroundings to a gain in prestige or economic advantages. btw Latin is (not yet) out of use ... only well disguised. The text I just wrote above contains about 20 words of Latin Yes, I am aware that Latin is the basis for many western languages. English being a combination of Romance languages (French, Celtic, and German). I, and most pro official language supporters, would only want English to be the official language for official use. We are against the practice where some counties in Ca print all of their official documents in up to 20 different languages. It should eliminate a U S President who when asked if Spanish speaking people should learn English saying that it would be better for English speaking people to learn Spanish.

blnymph -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 11:49:20 AM)
I would recommend the "South Tyrol solution": not either-or but the one as-well-as the other and both language groups will profit from it From my own personal experience: learning another language is not painful at all

BamaD -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 11:56:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph I would recommend the "South Tyrol solution": not either-or but the one as-well-as the other and both language groups will profit from it From my own personal experience: learning another language is not painful at all I am not familiar with the South Tyrol solution, but I am not a fan of multiculteraism as currently practiced here and I am certainly not in favor of the balkanization of the U S that it is encouraging.

mnottertail -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 12:13:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph I would recommend the "South Tyrol solution": not either-or but the one as-well-as the other and both language groups will profit from it From my own personal experience: learning another language is not painful at all I am not familiar with the South Tyrol solution, but I am not a fan of multiculteraism as currently practiced here and I am certainly not in favor of the balkanization of the U S that it is encouraging. Oh, jeeze here we go, another big government liberal who doesn't believe in states rights, because it balkanizes the US. Big central government by corporations, you are a communist.

thompsonx -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 12:53:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: the individuals were forbidden to communicate using these languages in public You know what else my country do to fix this crazy paranoia problem? Guess what else is compulsory in school? English compulsory first language. Depending on your ethnic background, you must have a compulsory second language inline with your background. So if you are Italian, your compulsory second language is Italian. If you are french, your compulsory second language is french. If you are Chinese, it's Mandarin. Etc. Etc. They don't want people to lose the use of their mother tongues. There is no reason why there cannot be a compulsory first language implemented, without fearing that it would oppress all other languages. Why do you think anyone in this country wants to emulate your backward deeply endebted country?

thompsonx -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 12:56:39 PM)
ORIGINAL: BamaD This was about the traditional immigrants. The new wave from Latin America, particularly the illegals, demand that we adapt to them, What utter bullshit. Where have the illegals made this demand? many even demanding the return of Ca and the southwest to Mexico. Why do you find that unreasonable? Remember we took it at the point of a gun after they refused to sell it to us.

thompsonx -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 1:12:23 PM)
ORIGINAL: BamaD I, and most pro official language supporters, would only want English to be the official language for official use. What do you do when the latinos are a majority and vote in spanish as the oficial language?[8\|] We are against the practice where some counties in Ca print all of their official documents in up to 20 different languages. On page 4 of my sample ballot it says that you are full of shit as usual. The ballot is printed in 7 languages english, chinese, japanese, korean, spanish, Tagalog and vietnamese. It should eliminate a U S President who when asked if Spanish speaking people should learn English saying that it would be better for English speaking people to learn Spanish. Educating yourself is always a bad idea ehh?

thompsonx -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 1:17:38 PM)
ORIGINAL: BamaD With esperanto you have a made up language which nobody uses, you might as well make Latin the official language, Perhaps if you were to actually know something about esperanto you might be capable of making a meaningful comment. As it is you are just opening your mouth to change feet as is usual for you.

thompsonx -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/24/2015 1:19:32 PM)
I am not familiar with the South Tyrol solution, but I am not a fan of multiculteraism as currently practiced here Why is it that anyone who is not white like you needs to change?

CriticalMasochst -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/26/2015 10:21:06 AM)
Just sounds like a slippery slope towards total xenophobia. I mean, if someone does lean English well enough to placate people here, what else might those people insist on changing? Are we going to ban other stuff that in some way different than the dominant culture in the name of ... i don't know? Just seems like a very slippery slope to complete intolerance of people who are different and still have the nerve to exist, and just can't support that. Maybe if it weren't for exposure to other types of cultures, I wouldn't have wanted to take the Spanish classes I took, and I think that knowledge and exposure is a good thing. I can't post on a message board supporting bigotry against others and extra hoops for them to jump through just because they exist.

blnymph -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/26/2015 4:13:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD We are against the practice where some counties in Ca print all of their official documents in up to 20 different languages. The EU prints all official documents in 27 languages, and has 6 working languages for and in everyday use - no real problem there, some effort no doubt, and finding translators from Estonian to Slovenian (just one example) can be difficult at times. All national languages of all EU countries (except one: Irish)* are official languages of equal rank within the EU - and the number is possibly growing (Catalan might be the next on the list). This is perfectly normal and working smoothly, and had no negative effect on any one of the languages involved. *Ireland declined the right to make Irish an official EU language because it would have had required to evacuate the Gaeltacht to Bruxelles, Luxemburg and Straßburg and turn all Irish-speakers into translators ...

BamaD -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/26/2015 4:17:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CriticalMasochst Just sounds like a slippery slope towards total xenophobia. I mean, if someone does lean English well enough to placate people here, what else might those people insist on changing? Are we going to ban other stuff that in some way different than the dominant culture in the name of ... i don't know? Just seems like a very slippery slope to complete intolerance of people who are different and still have the nerve to exist, and just can't support that. Maybe if it weren't for exposure to other types of cultures, I wouldn't have wanted to take the Spanish classes I took, and I think that knowledge and exposure is a good thing. I can't post on a message board supporting bigotry against others and extra hoops for them to jump through just because they exist. As oppossed to the slippery slope of making the majority "accomodate" a minority language so that minority won't feel oppressed. What other accomodations will be demanded. Keep in mind that La Rasa is already demanding that CA and the southwest be ceeded back to Mexico.

BamaD -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/26/2015 4:18:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD We are against the practice where some counties in Ca print all of their official documents in up to 20 different languages. The EU prints all official documents in 27 languages, and has 6 working languages for and in everyday use - no real problem there, some effort no doubt, and finding translators from Estonian to Slovenian (just one example) can be difficult at times. All national languages of all EU countries (except one: Irish)* are official languages of equal rank within the EU - and the number is possibly growing (Catalan might be the next on the list). This is perfectly normal and working smoothly, and had no negative effect on any one of the languages involved. *Ireland declined the right to make Irish an official EU language because it would have had required to evacuate the Gaeltacht to Bruxelles, Luxemburg and Straßburg and turn all Irish-speakers into translators ... You like living in Babel do so, I don't. Totally different situation anyway. If all memebers were not treated as equal there would be no EU. I which country did people come into the nation from the outside and demand that people in that country learn their language? That is what we are dealing with.

Politesub53 -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/26/2015 5:07:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD You like living in Babel do so, I don't. Totally different situation anyway. If all memebers were not treated as equal there would be no EU. I which country did people come into the nation from the outside and demand that people in that country learn their language? That is what we are dealing with. You claimed to have an IQ of 140....... Your posts, such as the above, make me doubt it.

blnymph -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/26/2015 5:25:28 PM)
Babel is the world - from biblical times until present btw - the perfect historical example for your question is England conquered in 1066 by French-speaking Normans (who had themselves switched to French from Norse a few generations earlier). The ruling classes kept speaking French for centuries and did everything to establish it as the language of the land. And what happened: the Anglo-Saxons took over certain portions of vocabulary (like "language" and "vocabulary") and after a few more generations all political attempts were useless and forgotten, and just a curio chapter for historians, and language had taken over the meaning of speech, and the meat was no longer given the name of the animal, and the result was English. These things happened in the past, and happen in the present, and will happen in the future: Languages are for communicating with one another, and people use whatever enables them to communicate - whether one language or another. Forbidding a language only ever worked by severest political suppression in everyday life - or not at all.

BamaD -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/26/2015 5:49:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph Babel is the world - from biblical times until present btw - the perfect historical example for your question is England conquered in 1066 by French-speaking Normans (who had themselves switched to French from Norse a few generations earlier). The ruling classes kept speaking French for centuries and did everything to establish it as the language of the land. And what happened: the Anglo-Saxons took over certain portions of vocabulary (like "language" and "vocabulary") and after a few more generations all political attempts were useless and forgotten, and just a curio chapter for historians, and language had taken over the meaning of speech, and the meat was no longer given the name of the animal, and the result was English. These things happened in the past, and happen in the present, and will happen in the future: Languages are for communicating with one another, and people use whatever enables them to communicate - whether one language or another. Forbidding a language only ever worked by severest political suppression in everyday life - or not at all. I am quite familiar with the liguistic chaos resulting from the Norman invasion. That was the result of the invading forces conquring the people already there. So we should surrender to the illegals". Your example of Babel is the world (combined with your apparent assumption that I didn't know it's origin) is seriously flawed, it does not require that people attempt to do business on a daily basis with people with which there is no common language. I have tried to do business with people who saw no need to learn English. Fortunately there was no other business because it took 10 minutes to sign language getting them bread and teaching them how to use the gas pumps. And they got irritated with me for not speaking Spanish, but English was to much trouble, if I moved to Mexico, I would learn Mexican they should learn English here.

Greta75 -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/26/2015 10:35:08 PM)
quote: Just sounds like a slippery slope towards total xenophobia. I mean, if someone does lean English well enough to placate people here, what else might those people insist on changing? Are we going to ban other stuff that in some way different than the dominant culture in the name of ... i don't know? Reading stuffs like this is crazy! Nobody seems to understand that English as official language does not equal oppression of all other languages. It just means that you can learn as many and speak as many languages as you want, AS LONG as you make sure the very very least, English is one of them. This is the problem! Why people interprete Illegals as ALL Mexicans! Same problem!

blnymph -> RE: Why isn't English the First Language of US? (9/27/2015 1:37:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph Babel is the world - from biblical times until present btw - the perfect historical example for your question is England conquered in 1066 by French-speaking Normans (who had themselves switched to French from Norse a few generations earlier). The ruling classes kept speaking French for centuries and did everything to establish it as the language of the land. And what happened: the Anglo-Saxons took over certain portions of vocabulary (like "language" and "vocabulary") and after a few more generations all political attempts were useless and forgotten, and just a curio chapter for historians, and language had taken over the meaning of speech, and the meat was no longer given the name of the animal, and the result was English. These things happened in the past, and happen in the present, and will happen in the future: Languages are for communicating with one another, and people use whatever enables them to communicate - whether one language or another. Forbidding a language only ever worked by severest political suppression in everyday life - or not at all. I am quite familiar with the liguistic chaos resulting from the Norman invasion. That was the result of the invading forces conquring the people already there. So we should surrender to the illegals". Your example of Babel is the world (combined with your apparent assumption that I didn't know it's origin) is seriously flawed, it does not require that people attempt to do business on a daily basis with people with which there is no common language. I have tried to do business with people who saw no need to learn English. Fortunately there was no other business because it took 10 minutes to sign language getting them bread and teaching them how to use the gas pumps. And they got irritated with me for not speaking Spanish, but English was to much trouble, if I moved to Mexico, I would learn Mexican they should learn English here. There is no "flaw" - Babel is everyday reality, as your own example shows. It might not be a comfort, but even if your customers wont learn English overnight, their children will. Excuse me but I fear you missed two of the most important aspects of the England after 1066 example - the effects of time, and the influence of the majority in numbers in comparison to powerpressure from "above" - btw what made California which in my knowledge was part of New Spain/Mexico for a few centuries, an English-speaking region, after having been a Spanish-speaking one?

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