RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (Full Version)

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kdsub -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 11:07:43 AM)

I have to agree with Jeff... It is just fine to use other countries as examples in gun discussions... but this is our problem and needs to be addressed by us and the opinions of other nations are inconsequential to me anyway.

Butch




Lucylastic -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 11:12:35 AM)

Over the last three years, nearly 1,400 firearms were confiscated at Canadian entry points, most of them personal guns belonging to U.S. citizens.

Case against U.S. man illustrates Canada's zero-tolerance gun policy
Charges against a Kentucky man accused of trying to smuggle a firearm into Canada underscore differences between U.S. and Canadian gun laws.
February 03, 2014|By David Zucchino

Louis DiNatale didn't intend to enter Canada when he and his wife wound up on a bridge from New York state to Ontario province one day in September, misdirected by an unreliable GPS. What began as an American couple's getaway to Vermont quickly turned into a lesson on the stark difference between the U.S. and Canada when it comes to gun laws.

DiNatale, whose request to turn around and cross back into the U.S. was denied, then made another mistake. When a border official asked whether he had any weapons, he said no.

Then the questions started about guns. A border agent asked whether he owned any.

"Yes," DiNatale said.

"Why?" an agent asked.

"I told him I was retired military, I had respect for weapons, and I had a concealed carry license to do so," DiNatale said in a statement.

"He asked me when was the last time I had a weapon on me. I told him, 'Earlier that week.' He asked me again, 'Why?' I told him it was my right as an American citizen to do so."



But he was driving his wife's car, and had forgotten he had stowed his Bersa .380 handgun in the center console days earlier.

A search turned up the gun and DiNatale found himself handcuffed and under interrogation by Canadian border officers for allegedly trying to smuggle a loaded handgun into the country — and lying about it. He spent four days in a Canadian jail before he could post bail.

DiNatale's predicament is a cautionary tale for American gun owners: Canada takes gun control more seriously than the U.S. Over the last three years, nearly 1,400 firearms were confiscated at Canadian entry points, most of them personal guns belonging to U.S. citizens.

His Canadian lawyer, Bruce Engel, says Canada overreacted to DiNatale's honest mistake and is using his case to send a message.

"They're trying to make a general blanket statement to American citizens: Don't mess with our borders," Engel said from his office in Ottawa.

DiNatale, 46, a retired Army sergeant major, says he stored the gun in his wife's car a few days earlier because he didn't want it in his car when he drove onto Ft. Knox, Ky., for a dental appointment.

The gun was still in his wife's car when she picked him up from work in Louisville, Ky., to drive to a weekend getaway in Vermont, he says. He remembered it all too well, of course, when Canadian agents confronted him with the weapon after they searched the car at the Thousand Islands Bridge border crossing between New York state and Ontario province.

The agents were unmoved by his explanations even after his wife, Cathy, verified his story.

DiNatale, a former Army legal expert who is now a paralegal in Kentucky, faces three years in jail if convicted; a Canadian court date is scheduled for June. Engel says he will vigorously fight the charges.

"They could have done their homework and looked at his background and seen he's a professional," Engel said. "They could have accepted the word of his wife and released him on his own recognizance."

Instead, Engel said, he was told by a Canadian prosecutor at DiNatale's bail hearing during his jail stay: "Bruce, when it comes to guns, it's kind of a zero-tolerance policy."



For Americans accustomed to routinely carrying guns inside the U.S., the situation changes radically at the Canadian border. The no-tolerance attitude toward guns is similar to that of airport security in the U.S. It made no difference, for instance, that DiNatale's gun is legally licensed (in the U.S., at least) or that he has a valid concealed-carry permit.

Under Canadian law, Americans who want to bring up to three guns across the border must first fill out a form and pay a $25 fee in Canadian dollars. The weapons must be declared at the border post; the form serves as a 60-day gun permit in Canada.

"If you do not declare all firearms or weapons, we will seize them and you may face criminal charges," the Canada Border Services Agency warns on its website. Automatic weapons and silencers are outlawed, and Canada strictly regulates the size of cartridge magazines.

The U.S. Embassy in Ottawa warns U.S. citizens who attempt to enter Canada with guns: "Weapons are strictly controlled." The warning adds: "Canadian law requires that officials seize firearms and weapons … from those who deny having them in their possession. Seized firearms and weapons are never returned."

In DiNatale's case, it seems his mistake was not just unfamiliarity with Canadian laws, but faulty navigation and a poor memory.

If a Canadian citizen made the same mistakes at a U.S. border post, agents would be able to exercise some discretion, a U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement official said. If agents found no evidence of an intent to smuggle weapons, they would probably confiscate the gun and deny entry — but in many cases the offender would not be prosecuted, the official said.
http://articles.latimes.com/2014/feb/03/nation/la-na-canada-border-guns-20140203




cloudboy -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 12:29:11 PM)

If you don't look at other systems and models that work better than our own, you can't learn anything or have any kind of informed perspective.




kdsub -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 12:41:43 PM)

Oh I agree with you there... Just saying outside opinions mean nothing... I do care about guns in America... Just not what others outside our borders think of us. I don't mean that as a put down. Bringing outside opinions will do no good and only inflame nationalism.

Butch




JVoV -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 12:43:29 PM)

Agreed. Anyone that thinks we shouldn't have guns probably wants to invade us.




kdsub -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 12:45:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

Agreed. Anyone that thinks we shouldn't have guns probably wants to invade us.


Yep then they will start talking about how Hitler took guns away and look what happened bit.

Butch




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 12:57:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Oh I agree with you there... Just saying outside opinions mean nothing... I do care about guns in America... Just not what others outside our borders think of us. I don't mean that as a put down. Bringing outside opinions will do no good and only inflame nationalism.

Butch

And when those very same 'outside opinions' are being echoed by no less than your very own president, doesn't than mean something to you??

What anyone else says or thinks of the US laws and how they aren't working doesn't count for much; that I agree with.
But when it's just about the rest of the world, and certainly all of the industrial world, perhaps the US can't afford to sit on its own outdated laurels??

I think it is generally agreed that something needs to be done, but exactly what, is the question.
If Americans between themselves can't agree on the solution, perhaps it might be worth listening to advice from elsewhere and looking into where other similar countries' laws are working.




tj444 -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 1:01:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Just up for fun and a different look at the issue....
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=89d_1411198955


lol he "shoots down" all the gun arguments really well..

Imo, the crime rate in Canada would be half what it is if it were not for the US next door and all the guns (legal & illegal) that are easy to buy and the firearms traffickers that smuggle that shite into Canada..

Or...if Canada didnt have all those criminals. How about blaming them and, you know, making them responsible for breaking the law?


how about Americans/American criminals being the ones to blame since any Canadian criminals wouldnt be able to buy them without y'all selling them in the first place.. anything to make a buck is ok with you??? just good ole American capitalism.. [8|]




NorthernGent -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 1:04:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

there isn't a single European that would trade places with most Americans



Assuming the inference is that 'Europe' has more to offer than the United States, then don't believe it.

I suppose I'm not typically European as I'm English which is different, but as a neutral observer I would much rather be in the United States than continental Europe by a long chalk.

I have my reasons, and the main one is I think they, as a continent, talk a good a game over there. Politically speaking. If you like people sitting in cafes talking endless bollocks about changing the world then that's the place for you. Problem is we have the experience to tell us that their talk didn't end well in terms of actions.

I like visiting continental Europe. In particular Germany and Central/Eastern Europe. But, I don't rate them one bit.

If I was wanting an opinion on a reasonable course of action in terms of how a country should run itself in order to attain prosperity and harmony, they would be the last people I would ask; in fact, they'd be the last species I would ask.




Aylee -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 1:15:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

- 167 000 in September (about the same in August)
(notably including Afghan civilians who worked for US troops in Afghanistan but are left behind)


- in comparison to 10 000 the USA "promises" to take - when? this year? next year?

http://uk.businessinsider.com/afp-how-the-us-plans-to-welcome-10000-syrian-refugees-2015-9?r=US&IR=T

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/11/world/middleeast/obama-directs-administration-to-accept-10000-syrian-refugees.html

maybe you should tell us how many refugees Texas can and will take - just by comparison of the size of your magnificent state which no doubt is a peak of civilisation and really big, in comparison to our countries here I see there is space for many.

(just one more for comparison: population Germany: about 82 million; population Texas about 27 million)

http://www.texasmonthly.com/the-daily-post/how-big-is-texas-compared-to-other-land-masses/





The US admits about 70,000 refugees PER YEAR. Far more than European countries. We also have about a quarter of the world's migrant population. The US takes in A LOT of folks.

And yeah, Germany took in a bunch of Muslim refugees who immediately asked for Oktoberfest to be cancelled. Sheesh. There WILL be demographic problems.




tj444 -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 1:24:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

there isn't a single European that would trade places with most Americans



Assuming the inference is that 'Europe' has more to offer than the United States, then don't believe it.

I suppose I'm not typically European as I'm English which is different, but as a neutral observer I would much rather be in the United States than continental Europe by a long chalk.

I have my reasons, and the main one is I think they, as a continent, talk a good a game over there. Politically speaking. If you like people sitting in cafes talking endless bollocks about changing the world then that's the place for you. Problem is we have the experience to tell us that their talk didn't end well in terms of actions.

I like visiting continental Europe. In particular Germany and Central/Eastern Europe. But, I don't rate them one bit.

If I was wanting an opinion on a reasonable course of action in terms of how a country should run itself in order to attain prosperity and harmony, they would be the last people I would ask; in fact, they'd be the last species I would ask.

it will be interesting to see if you still hold that view after living here for 5 years.. [:D]




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 1:26:55 PM)

Good post NG. I agree with it generally.

And like you, I don't count myself as European - I'm English, and proud to be so.
I actually like living on this tiny island country.

If you are fit and healthy, then your opening sentence would be correct.
But, if you factor in the benefits systems and socialist healthcare unavailable in the US, You'd be dead wrong.
I can afford to be ill anywhere in Europe, I couldn't afford it in the US.
If I had relocated out there 12 years ago as planned, I'd have been long dead by now because of not affording the healthcare bills - I would have starved to death or not gotten my meds, I couldn't afford to do both.
So in a sense, Mr Rodgers was quite right, I can't see that any sensible European would want to trade places with an American unless they were rich enough to afford it.




NorthernGent -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 1:37:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

there isn't a single European that would trade places with most Americans



Assuming the inference is that 'Europe' has more to offer than the United States, then don't believe it.

I suppose I'm not typically European as I'm English which is different, but as a neutral observer I would much rather be in the United States than continental Europe by a long chalk.

I have my reasons, and the main one is I think they, as a continent, talk a good a game over there. Politically speaking. If you like people sitting in cafes talking endless bollocks about changing the world then that's the place for you. Problem is we have the experience to tell us that their talk didn't end well in terms of actions.

I like visiting continental Europe. In particular Germany and Central/Eastern Europe. But, I don't rate them one bit.

If I was wanting an opinion on a reasonable course of action in terms of how a country should run itself in order to attain prosperity and harmony, they would be the last people I would ask; in fact, they'd be the last species I would ask.

it will be interesting to see if you still hold that view after living here for 5 years.. [:D]


Fair enough I haven't lived there, but I do know continental Europe and even now, after all these years and everything that went wrong; they still clamour for more centralised power.

And, that tells you everything you need to know about continental Europe. If the people make the system, which I think is always the case, then you have to question such a people clamouring for such a system when experience tells them it doesn't end well.

Blinkered, inflexible, impractical and ultimately arrogant in my opinion as there is no history to back up such unwavering support for their political point of view.




Wayward5oul -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 1:39:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
And when those very same 'outside opinions' are being echoed by no less than your very own president, doesn't than mean something to you??


Sure it means something. Because 1) he is the president and in a position to influence what happens and 2) he is an American talking about something going on in America.

His opinion is directly relevant to me. Whether I agree with it or not, it is relevant and I will pay attention to the conversation.

Whether or not the rest of the world agrees with him is completely irrelevant to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
I think it is generally agreed that something needs to be done, but exactly what, is the question.
If Americans between themselves can't agree on the solution, perhaps it might be worth listening to advice from elsewhere and looking into where other similar countries' laws are working.


Not in the context of this thread. This thread was made for the purpose of ridicule.




blnymph -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 1:49:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

The US admits about 70,000 refugees PER YEAR. Far more than European countries.


your school math differs from mine I guess: please explain how 70 000 per year is far more than 167 000 a month ... (and that is Germany only, not the EU, not those non-EU member countries in the rest of Europe)


quote:


We also have about a quarter of the world's migrant population. The US takes in A LOT of folks.

And yeah, Germany took in a bunch of Muslim refugees who immediately asked for Oktoberfest to be cancelled. Sheesh. There WILL be demographic problems.



Muslims calling for a cancellation of the Oktoberfest is about the most absurd rumour anybody could invent as of yet ... (well - I am sure there will be more to follow)

nope they did not
the Oktoberfest took place as scheduled (ended last Sunday, like every year), and nobody asked to cancel it

what a nonsense ...


there may be some demographic problem in the future - there is a humanity problem right now





NorthernGent -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 2:03:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

there may be some demographic problem in the future - there is a humanity problem right now



Are you from Europe Blnymph? Because this is so typical of continental Europe.

There isn't a 'humanity problem'.

This has been going on since the year dot, i.e. people migrating for a better life.

It's nothing new.






CreativeDominant -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 2:48:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Just up for fun and a different look at the issue....
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=89d_1411198955


lol he "shoots down" all the gun arguments really well..

Imo, the crime rate in Canada would be half what it is if it were not for the US next door and all the guns (legal & illegal) that are easy to buy and the firearms traffickers that smuggle that shite into Canada..

Or...if Canada didnt have all those criminals. How about blaming them and, you know, making them responsible for breaking the law?


how about Americans/American criminals being the ones to blame since any Canadian criminals wouldnt be able to buy them without y'all selling them in the first place.. anything to make a buck is ok with you??? just good ole American capitalism.. [8|]
How about the Canadians wanting to break the law in purchasing an illegal gun? I have no problem laying the blame whetecit belongs...if someone sells a gun illegally, punish them. But if you think that somehow, the Canadian who bought it would not have done so if he wasn't enticed by the dealer, then you don't have a very good opinion of Canadians being able to make their own decisions. Even the wrong ones.




joether -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 3:12:12 PM)

What happens when the thought process of people planning to take vacations, decide....NOT....to go to the United States because of all the gun violence? For example, I do not see very many conservatives in the nation or on this board planning trips to Mecca or other heavily Islamic-locations. Therefore, you would travel somewhere else in the world for a vacation.

Suppose businesses limit their travel to the United States and instead, decide to meet else where. On account of their view that Americans are just gun-totting psychopaths?

Imagine if governments were to place travel bans (much like the United States does with Iran and North Korea).

What sort of economic effect would it have on this nation? The answer is pretty obvious: quite a bit. There are thousands of companies in the USA that depend on foreigners coming to this nation for business and/or pleasure. What if they decide, in the interest of profits, to side with liberals and moderates on tighter gun control measures? It would be the gun industry verse the hospitality industry. The hospitality industry would win that fight hands down (its resources dwarf the firearm industry by a factor of 5:1).

Which wins out for conservatives? Capitalism or Firearms? Such an interesting debate.




MercTech -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 3:16:47 PM)

Guns and Europe, or at least Germany -

I admit it was a while back, 1997, when I was last in Europe. One of the differences I noted was the police. The police carried 9mm fully automatic machine guns and had two grenades on the belt. One flash-bang and one tear gas.
No air marshal undercover on the airplane either. A machine gun toting politzei in the jump seat next to the door to the cockpit seemed to be the norm. And this was before 9/11 and all the anti-terrorist insanity that came out with spastic political knees. (much worse than a knee jerk reaction)
You saw much more heavy armament walking around town than you would ever see outside of a riot in the U.S.

I get a lot of questions about the U.S. and gun control being a U.S. Citizen working in Canada. One question I always ask is "Do you expect the police to protect you personally?" In the U.S.; police officers have no requirement to protect the individual.
The most rabid gun fearing tantrum throwers all seem to come form overcrowded urban areas where the only use for a firearm would be for protection or criminal activities. I can see their personal fear as when you chart violent crimes against population density you reach a crowding point that the violent crime takes and asymptotic climb to insanity. My irritation comes from people living in insanity making crowding trying to enforce customs that may be applicable to their own little tribe onto everyone else even if they disagree.
In the end; it comes down to the concept of personal responsibility being trumped by the paradigm of the population being a group of violent stupid thugs that have to be controlled by the elite.




kdsub -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 3:37:30 PM)

You make perfect sense...at least in the altruistic way... but I am afraid it will take more time before America regains its sanity. Just look at the responses we get here on these boards and I find them typical of what I hear from my conservative friends in general.

There will be no quick solution or new laws in the short term anyway. It seems when rational people start talking about gun laws pro-gun advocates circle the wagons and reject any proposal no matter how reasonable it is... And European opinions in general just make them dig their fingers in their ears all the deeper.

Butch





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