RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (Full Version)

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blnymph -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 3:37:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Guns and Europe, or at least Germany -

I admit it was a while back, 1997, when I was last in Europe. One of the differences I noted was the police. The police carried 9mm fully automatic machine guns and had two grenades on the belt. One flash-bang and one tear gas.
No air marshal undercover on the airplane either. A machine gun toting politzei in the jump seat next to the door to the cockpit seemed to be the norm. And this was before 9/11 and all the anti-terrorist insanity that came out with spastic political knees. (much worse than a knee jerk reaction)
You saw much more heavy armament walking around town than you would ever see outside of a riot in the U.S.
...


It must have been a state of alert for whatever reason; the only time I saw German policemen with automatic weapons was as security during the papal visit.

The standard service guns for German police you can see here:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Dienstwaffen_der_deutschen_Polizei







PeonForHer -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 3:43:58 PM)

quote:

In the end; it comes down to the concept of personal responsibility being trumped by the paradigm of the population being a group of violent stupid thugs that have to be controlled by the elite.


That's an interesting perspective, for me. In contrast, perhaps, I've often felt that one of the fundamental, underlying differences between the USA and Europe is about the former's individualistic worldview and the latter's, more social, worldview. In so many of the debates here at CM, for instance, I see American gun-supporters talking in terms of how 'I' or 'My family' can protect 'myself' or 'themselves' - that is, what's best for me, and for other *individuals*. In Europe, people more readily think in terms of 'What's best for all of us, as one big group?', I think. From that perspective, the anti-gun position does seem to be a lot more reasonable and sensible.




kdsub -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 3:49:52 PM)

Now if you all could just stop starting all these damn world wars...maybe paying attention to the family and the individual and forgetting about all the social worldview may in the end kill fewer people.

Butch




PeonForHer -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 3:59:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Now if you all could just stop starting all these damn world wars...maybe paying attention to the family and the individual and forgetting about all the social worldview may in the end kill fewer people.

Butch


To be fair, Butch, the USA has been vigorously trying to catch up since 1945, hasn't it? Multiple forays across the world since, and y'all very nearly capped our European achievements on the world war thing nicely with that Cuban Missile crisis, didn't you? ;-)




PeonForHer -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 4:10:39 PM)

quote:

It must have been a state of alert for whatever reason; the only time I saw German policemen with automatic weapons was as security during the papal visit.


For me, there have been two kind of alarming experiences re guns in my lifetime: the first, when I visited France and saw the gendarmes carrying them in Paris; the second, when I took a flight from Heathrow Airport here in England, and saw cops carrying not just guns but damned great big rifles. (Automatics or whatever - I've no interest in ever finding out. Just big, fucking ugly, nasty-looking things.)

The ordinary Brit experience is never to see a gun * at all *. Seriously, I'd never seen a firearm outside of films till I was in my twenties - and this, from the son of a London policeman who was a qualified marksman and licensed to draw a gun from the store when required. (He hated guns, with an absolute visceral disgust. He said once that the sight of one made him feel pretty similar to the way he felt when he saw a rat - just instant revulsion.)




kdsub -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 4:13:35 PM)

Yep... but we could have sank the bastard if he opened his tubes to launch.... but all our little wars wouldn't make a drop in a water bucket compared to yours.... but I forgive you... just not politesub...he owes money still from WWI.

Butch




PeonForHer -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 5:18:17 PM)

Really, Butch? Do you want to compare the numbers of Americans killed in both WW1 and WW2 ... to the numbers of Americans, killed by other Americans, with their guns?




Wayward5oul -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 5:32:20 PM)

FR

This is exactly what this thread was meant to do-provoke conflict and generate strife between people who may or may not have anything whatsoever to do with the initial topic. Nice job.




Lucylastic -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 6:00:11 PM)

You will notice that the top three posts right now are provoking...it happens a lot here.
It does get worse...Not better.




Wayward5oul -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 6:32:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

You will notice that the top three posts right now are provoking...it happens a lot here.
It does get worse...Not better.



Yeah, I'm pretty used to it by now. But I'm just seeing strife and resentment being fueled in ways that are atypical. It is entirely nonconstructive and was intended to be so. I just hope it doesn't spill over into other threads.




PeonForHer -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 6:39:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

You will notice that the top three posts right now are provoking...it happens a lot here.
It does get worse...Not better.



Yup. In theory, it's helpful to hear what people in other countries think of the way things are done in your own country. But only in theory.




PeonForHer -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 6:49:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

You will notice that the top three posts right now are provoking...it happens a lot here.
It does get worse...Not better.



Yeah, I'm pretty used to it by now. But I'm just seeing strife and resentment being fueled in ways that are atypical. It is entirely nonconstructive and was intended to be so. I just hope it doesn't spill over into other threads.


WS, really ... if the average American had given the slightest damn about the way the rest of the first world saw the USA and its gun-culture - that culture would have died out years ago. It seems to me that Americans as a whole are pretty much inured to outside views on the matter of American policy on guns and gun-owernship, especially. 'We don't know anything about America, we don't understand and value true freedom, we're in love with all-controlling central states ... etc, etc.'




Wayward5oul -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 7:10:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

You will notice that the top three posts right now are provoking...it happens a lot here.
It does get worse...Not better.



Yeah, I'm pretty used to it by now. But I'm just seeing strife and resentment being fueled in ways that are atypical. It is entirely nonconstructive and was intended to be so. I just hope it doesn't spill over into other threads.


WS, really ... if the average American had given the slightest damn about the way the rest of the first world saw the USA and its gun-culture - that culture would have died out years ago. It seems to me that Americans as a whole are pretty much inured to outside views on the matter of American policy on guns and gun-owernship, especially. 'We don't know anything about America, we don't understand and value true freedom, we're in love with all-controlling central states ... etc, etc.'


I am not sure that you understand just how much the ideas that you discussed in another post are ingrained into the culture.



quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
I've often felt that one of the fundamental, underlying differences between the USA and Europe is about the former's individualistic worldview and the latter's, more social, worldview. In so many of the debates here at CM, for instance, I see American gun-supporters talking in terms of how 'I' or 'My family' can protect 'myself' or 'themselves' - that is, what's best for me, and for other *individuals*. In Europe, people more readily think in terms of 'What's best for all of us, as one big group?', I think. From that perspective, the anti-gun position does seem to be a lot more reasonable and sensible.


That isn't just here on CM. Thats representative of a great deal of the country. It is part of what makes people identify as 'American', and the fact is that many Americans are aware that we are seen this way by a lot of the world, and are kinda proud of it. I am not saying that we are proud of the aspects of culture that causes this conflict. I am saying that idea of relying on oneself, and protecting and caring for those you love, fighting your way through struggles and coming out on the other end stronger and better for it. The idea of bucking teh trend and doing things your own way, regardlss of what everyone else thinks. That is the attitude that helped build the country. Those are the ideas that the "American Dream" are built on. Independence, self-reliance, personal responsibility. That is exactly what drives so many people to want to come here. You used the right word for it-fundamental. It is a fundamental difference, one that is not going to go away.

What problems we have are going to have be dealt with in that context. And as it is unique from other experiences that exist in other cultures, we don't look to other cultures for inspiration.





Wayward5oul -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 7:52:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
For me, there have been two kind of alarming experiences re guns in my lifetime: the first, when I visited France and saw the gendarmes carrying them in Paris; the second, when I took a flight from Heathrow Airport here in England, and saw cops carrying not just guns but damned great big rifles. (Automatics or whatever - I've no interest in ever finding out. Just big, fucking ugly, nasty-looking things.)

The ordinary Brit experience is never to see a gun * at all *. Seriously, I'd never seen a firearm outside of films till I was in my twenties - and this, from the son of a London policeman who was a qualified marksman and licensed to draw a gun from the store when required. (He hated guns, with an absolute visceral disgust. He said once that the sight of one made him feel pretty similar to the way he felt when he saw a rat - just instant revulsion.)


And on this side of the pond, it is an entirely different experience. I can't remember a time that guns weren't in my house. I was taught from the very beginning to not touch, and I didn't. But I would sit there and watch my dad and my uncles clean their guns after a hunt. I lived out in West Texas, which I pointed out in the Houston thread on another board.

Remember when you noted that where you are you don't have to deal with things rising up out of your front lawn to kill you? That was just an average day in my childhood. I really did have a shoebox full of rattlesnake tails taken from the snakes my dad killed in our yard and driveway. I remember one time I walking around the house with him, and saw what I thought was a stick sticking out of a hole in the foundation. I grabbed it and it came to life in my hands. It was a snake, and my dad grabbed it from me and stomped into into the ground with his boots.

At one point we lived so far out in the 'range' that my grandfather gave my mom a hunting rifle for her birthday, because she and my dad hunted for a lot of our food. They were even attacked by a bear one time. My dad would laugh about how he looked around and saw my mom, all 5 feet 2 inches of her, whaling on that bear with her gun. Not shooting it, because it was too close for that. So she was trying to beat it away from her with the gun. You may look at something like that and say 'how could someone live like that?' But the fact is, I am damn proud of my mom for that.

For several years in my childhood, I lived in a predominantly Asian family. I was a Caucasian girl, living with Asian brothers and sisters, in an area where a significant portion of the population was Hispanic. That made for a unique set of circumstances for me growing up. The stories I could tell you. What got me through all of that? I was brought up to face struggles head on, whether it meant studying hard so that I could provide my own future for myself as an adult (something my mother drummed into my head from an early age, as she didn't want me to have to depend on the men in the family to survive) or whether it meant whaling on a bear with a hunting rifle. I was brought up to depend on myself, and take responsibility for myself,. And I am pretty proud of the way I have lived a lot of my life. And I attribute it to these values.

Granted, I think part of all this was being in the Southwest, where the idea of independence and self-reliance is stronger that it may be in say, Seattle. But some of what I have described is ingrained into the culture as a whole. It is not as strong as it used to be. Some areas are still strong with it and others are not. That has created a big gap in areas, regarding what people think it is to be an American, and it is this disconnect that I think drives a lot of the conflict that
I see in the country.

Do I believe that we are going to have to make compromises on gun control issues to resolve this? Yes, I do. And while there are some controls that I
think are reasonable, I am sure there will be some that will piss me off. And I don’t even own a gun myself.

But the reason there is no gun in my house is because I know that I am responsible for whatever happens with any gun that is in my possession. And since I don’t know how to use one properly, I am not going to put myself or my son in a situation where an accident can become deadly. Whatever were to happen, it would all be on me. And everyone that I know that owns guns feels the same way. Everyone I know that has a gun has a gun safe. Most of them are bolted into the floor so that a robber couldn’t even make off with it to try and break into it later. People do not want others to get their weapons.










kdsub -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 8:09:31 PM)

Hey you are talking to the choir




kdsub -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 8:11:56 PM)

quote:

'We don't know anything about America, we don't understand and value true freedom, we're in love with all-controlling central states ... etc, etc


I couldn't have said it better myself....[sm=applause.gif]




dcnovice -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 8:16:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

<snip>

It seems to me that Americans as a whole are pretty much inured to outside views on the matter of American policy on guns and gun-owernship, especially. 'We don't know anything about America, we don't understand and value true freedom, we're in love with all-controlling central states ... etc, etc.'

[image]http://adamanddavid1.homestead.com/There_is_no_way_like_the_American_Way_Billboard.jpg[/image]




dcnovice -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 8:19:51 PM)

This is the world map many of us Yanks grew up with. You'll notice who's front and center. [;)]

[image]http://www.sussexvt.k12.de.us/science/The%20History%20of%20the%20World%201500-1899/Mercator%20Projection%20World%20Map_files/image002.jpg[/image]




kdsub -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 8:22:36 PM)

nm




Wayward5oul -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 8:24:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

This is the world map many of us Yanks grew up with. You'll notice who's front and center. [;)]

[image]http://www.sussexvt.k12.de.us/science/The%20History%20of%20the%20World%201500-1899/Mercator%20Projection%20World%20Map_files/image002.jpg[/image]

I never had that map. But I sure as hell am aware of the mindset.




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