RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message

Kirata -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 9:37:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

This is the world map many of us Yanks grew up with. You'll notice who's front and center.

And this is the world map that primary school children in the UK grow up with. Look who's front and center.

[image]http://mapsinternational.co.uk/readonly/products_images/2349605_1.JPG[/image]
http://mapsinternational.co.uk/product_details.asp?pid=WM415&pName=Large-Primary-Physical-world-wall-map

K.




jlf1961 -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/9/2015 10:23:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Really, Butch? Do you want to compare the numbers of Americans killed in both WW1 and WW2 ... to the numbers of Americans, killed by other Americans, with their guns?



You went there okay, here are the numbers:

WW1 204,002
WW2 670,846

Now the number quoted by the article conveniently leaves out some very important points.

So lets look at the number, shall we?

1,516,863 gun related deaths in the US since 1968.

But you did say, "numbers of Americans, killed by other Americans, with their guns."

In that case, you are looking at a totally different number, and a significantly lower one.

Gun related homicides in the US average about 8000 per year, so Americans killing Americans with American guns for the time frame drops to 376000 average, or 498,000 less.

Okay, now the article did make the claim that it was in all wars, so again the number is still lower than the total Americans killed in combat.

Now, I guess someone killing themselves with a gun is an American Killing an American, but it is not gun related criminal violence.

Accidents are another problem, now the implication is that Americans intended to Kill other Americans, well in an accident there is no intent, if there were, then it is no longer an accident.

So, under the guise of saying that more Americans have killed Americans with private guns than in all the war dead combined, or even out of two world wars, the argument becomes bullshit, because it just is not true.

So to quote the immortal Roy Clark, "Put that in your peace pipe and smoke it Minihaha."

Sad to say that most gun related accidental deaths is a direct result of Darwin's law, there are the few that are because people where just careless.

And when you compare suicides by gun to suicides by overdose on prescription medication legally obtained, gun related suicides dont even come close.

So here is some advice for you "European holier than thou our way is the only way" morons, get the numbers straight and stop grouping everything into one fucked up total.

The problem is gun related criminal acts, school shootings, drive bys, or HOMICIDES, and even then the numbers are far fewer than you folks want to admit, which is why you take an over all number and point at it.

When you look at homicides by guns, Mexico beats us hands down, and they have only one place you can legally buy a gun in the whole fucking country.



PeonForHer -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/10/2015 2:36:35 AM)

quote:

This is the world map many of us Yanks grew up with. You'll notice who's front and center.


I must admit I thought all countries did that with their world maps. The UK certainly does. I've heard that North Korea not only puts itself dead centre, but also makes it much, much bigger than it really is.



PeonForHer -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/10/2015 2:58:02 AM)

quote:

At one point we lived so far out in the 'range' that my grandfather gave my mom a hunting rifle for her birthday, because she and my dad hunted for a lot of our food. They were even attacked by a bear one time. My dad would laugh about how he looked around and saw my mom, all 5 feet 2 inches of her, whaling on that bear with her gun. Not shooting it, because it was too close for that. So she was trying to beat it away from her with the gun. You may look at something like that and say 'how could someone live like that?' But the fact is, I am damn proud of my mom for that.


Who would not be? Whew ....

I get that this aspect of American culture - this sense of pioneering - of the land, its fauna and indigenous people being dangerous and hostile - is something that the early settlers pretty much had to take on board, or die. Likewise the great expanses of land that put people literally beyond practical help from the forces of law.

But - first thought - are all these aspects *so* exceptional in the world? Is the Canadian experience that much different? Going much further away: As I understand it, Australia, for instance, is both huge (by UK standards) and *teeming* with dangerous creatures. Convicts transported there for punishment were of the belief that it was so dangerous that escape from the work-camps was to throw yourself out of the frying pan and into the fire. Yet the laws on guns were changed radically in the late 1990s by a conservative prime minister, and without great outcry.



PeonForHer -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/10/2015 4:45:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

This is the world map many of us Yanks grew up with. You'll notice who's front and center.

And this is the world map that primary school children in the UK grow up with. Look who's front and center.

[image]http://mapsinternational.co.uk/readonly/products_images/2349605_1.JPG[/image]
http://mapsinternational.co.uk/product_details.asp?pid=WM415&pName=Large-Primary-Physical-world-wall-map

K.





Er ... looks like somewhere off the coast of Ghana or Togo to me, K. [;)]



Lucylastic -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/10/2015 5:17:00 AM)

yeah thats what I thought.
derp



PeonForHer -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/10/2015 5:30:02 AM)

Well, to be fair, putting the British Isles in the dead centre would render half the map taken up by great expanses of barren Arctic, I suppose.



Lucylastic -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/10/2015 5:31:42 AM)

[:D]



PeonForHer -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/10/2015 5:53:17 AM)

quote:


You went there okay, here are the numbers:

WW1 204,002
WW2 670,846

Now the number quoted by the article conveniently leaves out some very important points.


I didn't refer to the article and wasn't thinking of it in my comment, JLF. In fact I haven't so far read the article at all.


quote:


Gun related homicides in the US average about 8000 per year


So, 874,848 people were killed in both world wars, combined. Going on your average, it would have taken roughly 109 years for gun-related homicides to surpass the numbers of people killed in WW1 and WW2. Hmmm. Not too bad ... maybe. But does that figure for homicide include all gun-related deaths *other* than suicides?

Your essential point seems to be that comparing the figures in any way is a nonsense - it's comparing the incomparable. Maybe. But it seems to me that this also has the effect of wriggling out of the problem - because the moment you reject all comparisons, you reject any way of judging the scale of the numbers of gun deaths in the USA. That will work for certain types of pro-gunners in the USA - it helps put them back in their comfort zone (the USA is an exception, the USA's use of guns is exceptional, etc, etc) - but, of course, it's not going to work for most Europeans. Not that you care, as you've said - but it doesn't help the two sides understand each other.



Kirata -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/10/2015 8:17:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

If you don't look at other systems and models that work better than our own, you can't learn anything or have any kind of informed perspective.

Well let's do that, then. Here's the homicide data for England and Wales. In what year did the UK pass acts that almost completely banned the private possession of handguns? Should be easy enough...

Period      100k

2011/12:    0.97
2010/11:    1.15
2009/10:    1.11
2008/09:    1.18
2007/08:    1.36
2006/07:    1.33
2005/06:    1.33
2004/05:    1.47
2003/04:    1.46
2002/03:    1.79
2001/02:    1.52
2000/01:    1.44
1999/00:    1.27
1998/99:    1.22
1997/98:    1.16

I mean, it's obvious isn't it?

Source

K.



Wayward5oul -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/10/2015 8:28:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
But - first thought - are all these aspects *so* exceptional in the world? Is the Canadian experience that much different? Going much further away: As I understand it, Australia, for instance, is both huge (by UK standards) and *teeming* with dangerous creatures. Convicts transported there for punishment were of the belief that it was so dangerous that escape from the work-camps was to throw yourself out of the frying pan and into the fire. Yet the laws on guns were changed radically in the late 1990s by a conservative prime minister, and without great outcry.


If that is true, then that shows a fundamental difference right there. When I first started reading the line about the convicts, my initial thought was 'ok, what was out there and how did they figure out how to survive it'. Not 'ooh scary'.

You push forward. You make your way. Come Hell or high water.



PeonForHer -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/10/2015 8:59:09 AM)

quote:

Well let's do that, then. Here's the homicide data for England and Wales. In what year did the UK pass acts that almost completely banned the private possession of handguns? Should be easy enough...


I don't see the point of those figures, K. The bulk of the work on gun control here in the UK was done by the 1920 Firearms Act.



jlf1961 -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/10/2015 8:59:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:


You went there okay, here are the numbers:

WW1 204,002
WW2 670,846

Now the number quoted by the article conveniently leaves out some very important points.


I didn't refer to the article and wasn't thinking of it in my comment, JLF. In fact I haven't so far read the article at all.


quote:


Gun related homicides in the US average about 8000 per year


So, 874,848 people were killed in both world wars, combined. Going on your average, it would have taken roughly 109 years for gun-related homicides to surpass the numbers of people killed in WW1 and WW2. Hmmm. Not too bad ... maybe. But does that figure for homicide include all gun-related deaths *other* than suicides?

Your essential point seems to be that comparing the figures in any way is a nonsense - it's comparing the incomparable. Maybe. But it seems to me that this also has the effect of wriggling out of the problem - because the moment you reject all comparisons, you reject any way of judging the scale of the numbers of gun deaths in the USA. That will work for certain types of pro-gunners in the USA - it helps put them back in their comfort zone (the USA is an exception, the USA's use of guns is exceptional, etc, etc) - but, of course, it's not going to work for most Europeans. Not that you care, as you've said - but it doesn't help the two sides understand each other.




No, that figure is homicides, the intentional taking of a human life by another during a criminal act.

Even if you add in the accidental deaths caused by negligent use of a firearm, you still will not come close to the number killed in both world wars.

My point, simply stated, that the number of Americans killed by other Americans using guns is far less than most European asshats want to believe, or would want the world to believe.

The number of gun related homicides in the US, including mass shootings at schools, drive by shootings by gangs pulling the spray and pray technique is not even close to the tens of thousands you people claim, thus making your point bullshit.

It is even further rendered bullshit when you consider that other countries with far stricter gun laws, including death for even possessing a firearm have problems far worse than the US, but, as always, lets point the finger at the United States, because they can legally own guns.

How about this number:

There were 310 million nonmilitary firearms in the United States as of 2009, according to federal figures. That is the figure for registered firearms and firearms in the possession of law enforcement agencies, since they are "non-military."

Gun ownership is down to 32% of American households, while the number of Americans who support the right to own guns is still roughly 52% of the population.

Now, when you add up all the privately owned legal firearms, compare that to the number of gun related homicides each year (since the reason this discussion came up is a shooting on a college campus, which is gun related crime) you have a very small percentage of legal guns being used in criminal acts.

The UK still has gun related homicides, granted the percentage is negligible compared to the US, but it still happens, and how freely are guns available there? The same is true for every country held up as a shining example of the elimination of gun related deaths.

It still happens.

And then all anyone is really talking about is ending private gun ownership. Every time I ask how you guys plan to take the millions of guns away from criminals, you have no answer.

And since all but 2% of gun related criminal acts use a legally purchased and owned firearm, start with that problem first. I worked in Law Enforcement, of the 300 weapons I confiscated during arrests, 2 were taken from the registered owners. The rest were either stolen or had no paper trail whatsoever as far as ownership goes. Now, strangely enough, there are the ghost guns.

A ghost gun is a weapon that is recorded as had been taken by law enforcement as a direct result of a criminal arrest and prosecution and recorded as destroyed.

Law enforcement agencies hire contractors to destroy these weapons, but even though they were "destroyed" they miraculously appear on the streets.

Once more, the problem is not the firearms in the hands of legitimate, legal owners.

But, that is what you folks seem to believe. Legal gun owners are going out and killing people.

Now, get your facts straight, focus on the actual problem, and tell us, how to take the millions of guns out of the hands of criminals. Tell you what, I will pay for your airline ticket, first class, pay for you a five star hotel room in LA, and all you have to do is to go down to south central LA and ask all the street gangs to hand over their guns.



PeonForHer -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/10/2015 9:03:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

If that is true, then that shows a fundamental difference right there. When I first started reading the line about the convicts, my initial thought was 'ok, what was out there and how did they figure out how to survive it'. Not 'ooh scary'.

You push forward. You make your way. Come Hell or high water.


Amongst other things - Aus looking and feeling more 'foreign and alien' than did America; a propaganda campaign by the prison warderns, etc ....

But I doubt that we're talking of 'different kinds of people' here. I think people will do different things depending on what they figure are their best chances of survival.



PeonForHer -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/10/2015 9:05:07 AM)

quote:

No, that figure is homicides, the intentional taking of a human life by another during a criminal act.

Even if you add in the accidental deaths caused by negligent use of a firearm, you still will not come close to the number killed in both world wars.


Right ... so, would 'homicides' include deaths by police, deaths by people lawfully defending themselves, and so forth?



kdsub -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/10/2015 9:06:14 AM)

They are such gentle people.



jlf1961 -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/10/2015 9:13:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

No, that figure is homicides, the intentional taking of a human life by another during a criminal act.

Even if you add in the accidental deaths caused by negligent use of a firearm, you still will not come close to the number killed in both world wars.


Right ... so, would 'homicides' include deaths by police, deaths by people lawfully defending themselves, and so forth?



That number includes, all intentional gun related deaths, since the FBI does not take out self defense, and law enforcement action from the total.

In other words, it is gun related deaths as a direct involvement in the commission of a criminal act.

The only numbers removed are accidental and suicides.

You are grasping at straws arent you?



Kirata -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/10/2015 9:23:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

They are such gentle people.

You think so? Actually, they are, on average, about twice as homicidal as the French, and pretty much on a par with white Americans as well as most of America's minority groups when viewed separately from the gang-ridden subcultures that burden some of their communities.

K.



PeonForHer -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/10/2015 9:38:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

You are grasping at straws arent you?


No, JLF, I'm using the figures that you have given, yourself. You did ask me to get my facts straight, didn't you?

Just to be clear, then, where I said, on the basis of the facts that you yourself presented ...

quote:


... 874,848 people were killed in both world wars, combined. Going on your average, it would have taken roughly 109 years for gun-related homicides to surpass the numbers of people killed in WW1 and WW2. Hmmm. Not too bad ... maybe.


... That was wrong, was it?



kdsub -> RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe (10/10/2015 9:48:36 AM)

Said with tongue in Cheek Kirata



Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875