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Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/7/2015 8:17:15 PM   
TieMeInKnottss


Posts: 1944
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Status: offline 		Usually stay out of here because, while I am an avid follower of current events and world politics, I hate arguing.

I was thinking and started to wonder about something. while I understand why people are fleeing the Mideast and don't agree with the "everyone stand up and fight instead of running away" thing, It hit me...do those who claim that Islam is peaceful and has been hijacked by the ultra-conservative have a responsibility to take back their religion from those that they claim have hijacked it?

I am Catholic. Honestly, I believe in having a religious hierarchy (which I know Islam...like most Christian religions does not have). You have one "ruling body" that makes the rules and excommunicates those who will not follow them...they then go off and make their own religion and don't "sully" us. (Yeah...lots to be said about the various issues and teachings in Catholicism...not going there right now )

Why don't the "peaceful" Muslims unite and take back their religion? I am not talking about politics--theocracies and Islamic nations--there is a HUGE difference in government/rulers and the religions they claim to represent. Forget the ISIL and the Taliban (to me those would be the guys that the religious hierarchy would excommunicate). If true Muslims decided to band together and say " ok" here is our leader and what he says goes (hey...we might not agree with the pope but I agree he has the right to make the decisions), then it would separate the "hijackers" from the truly devout and would remove any legitimacy.

So...why don't the peaceful Muslims get together and say "our name, our rules, get the f-- out. call yourself whatever you want but you are no longer 'Muslims". Hey, for Catholics in medieval times, taking away the name often completely destroyed the governments of those who did not follow what the church said.
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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/7/2015 8:21:04 PM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: TieMeInKnottss

Usually stay out of here because, while I am an avid follower of current events and world politics, I hate arguing.

I was thinking and started to wonder about something. while I understand why people are fleeing the Mideast and don't agree with the "everyone stand up and fight instead of running away" thing, It hit me...do those who claim that Islam is peaceful and has been hijacked by the ultra-conservative have a responsibility to take back their religion from those that they claim have hijacked it?

I am Catholic. Honestly, I believe in having a religious hierarchy (which I know Islam...like most Christian religions does not have). You have one "ruling body" that makes the rules and excommunicates those who will not follow them...they then go off and make their own religion and don't "sully" us. (Yeah...lots to be said about the various issues and teachings in Catholicism...not going there right now )

Why don't the "peaceful" Muslims unite and take back their religion? I am not talking about politics--theocracies and Islamic nations--there is a HUGE difference in government/rulers and the religions they claim to represent. Forget the ISIL and the Taliban (to me those would be the guys that the religious hierarchy would excommunicate). If true Muslims decided to band together and say " ok" here is our leader and what he says goes (hey...we might not agree with the pope but I agree he has the right to make the decisions), then it would separate the "hijackers" from the truly devout and would remove any legitimacy.

So...why don't the peaceful Muslims get together and say "our name, our rules, get the f-- out. call yourself whatever you want but you are no longer 'Muslims". Hey, for Catholics in medieval times, taking away the name often completely destroyed the governments of those who did not follow what the church said.


Why didn't the "peaceful catholics" stop the violence in viet nam or ireland in the near recernt past or the inquisition a little farther back?

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/7/2015 8:51:55 PM   
TieMeInKnottss


Posts: 1944
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Status: offline 		Never said the Catholics were peaceful (and, I am not asking about beliefs and/or dogmas). My question is whether or not those who feel their religion has been usurped and whose name is being wrongly used, should get together and take back their religion.

My comparison to Catholicism was just to explain why I tend to believe in the hierarchy that I know most religions don't have. Plus, to explain where my historical reference comes from of having problems with politicians/monarchies taking over and using religion.

Ultimately, my question is...do those who claim that ISIL, the Taliban, the jihadists are NOT true "Muslims" have a responsibility to their own beliefs, to say, " you are not us and get the f-- out. Call yourself the Taliban or the Jihadits...but, unless you follow THESE rules you are NOT one of us and can't use our name"

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/7/2015 9:04:12 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		Well, the "peaceful" Muslims have been condemning terrorism since the 72 Olympic games, but they are not considered newsworthy.

But then, as a fellow (albeit, non practicing Catholic) why havent the non-pedaphile priests done something about the sick bastards in the Priesthood?

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/7/2015 9:13:08 PM   
TieMeInKnottss


Posts: 1944
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Status: offline 		Because those priests are not saying that pedophilia is a responsibility of all those who are Catholics. Again, not arguing the point of whether WHAT Catholics and prior papacies have DONE or PERMITTED. My question is, if they got together, made one set of rules/dogma for their religion, put one iman at the top who was the FINAL authority...wouldn't that be better?p

My belief here is that, I don't agree/disagree with the chants that instead of fleeing their countries they should fight these crazies BUT, that they need to stop saying this is not "true Islam" while the other side is saying "this IS true Islam". If they remove the legitimacy of the people claiming this IS what must be done to be a good Muslim then you would remove a lot of the fuel.

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/7/2015 11:48:34 PM   
JVoV


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Status: offline 		Yes! They must discover the one twu way!

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 12:00:26 AM   
Greta75


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Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		FR
Pedophilia practiced by Muhammad.

Fundamental version: Follows a Hadith that says, married her at 6 yrs old, took her virginity at 9 yrs old (Sahih Muslim)
Moderate version: Follows a different Tafsir to counter that says, Married her at 13 yrs old, and took her virginity at 16 yrs old. (Tabari)

In terms of which is written earlier, Sahih Muslim 204-261 AH and Tabari is 224–310 AH. Both moderates and Fundies have disputes on which one is the more accurate one.
But if I go to this website, it claims Sahih Muslim is authentic. Maybe this muslim website is lying.

Both ancient text agree he married this little girl because he fell inlove with her and how well she was treated by him and was the apple of his eye throughout their marriage. I think he was already 50 at that time. And they tried to make it look better by saying his wife was dying of old age, and she gave them her blessings. She also liked this little girl to be her replacement.

Good luck moderates in trying to argue their way for authentic-ness.

I am glad catholic priests has no religious text to refer to, to justify their pedophilia.

Of course I have heard the argument from fundie muslims that they claim Mary was 12 yr old when she was pregnant with Jesus. As I said, Islam does not deny Jesus birth and that he was real and part of Islam. Thus justifies what Muhammad did.

Now the crazy thing is catholic priests seem to prefer going for little boys rather than little girls. I don't know why, I am pretty sure homosexuality is completely unacceptable in the bible. No where says it is okay. And that is a good thing again, to show that it's not part of Catholicism to do that.

But if I was a Muslim, I'm gonna argue non stop about how it was permissible because Muhammad did it. Even if we ditch the older version, it's still a 16 yr old girl. 50 yr old and 16 yr old, just too much for me.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/8/2015 12:36:49 AM >

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 1:21:02 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TieMeInKnottss

Because those priests are not saying that pedophilia is a responsibility of all those who are Catholics. Again, not arguing the point of whether WHAT Catholics and prior papacies have DONE or PERMITTED. My question is, if they got together, made one set of rules/dogma for their religion, put one iman at the top who was the FINAL authority...wouldn't that be better?p

My belief here is that, I don't agree/disagree with the chants that instead of fleeing their countries they should fight these crazies BUT, that they need to stop saying this is not "true Islam" while the other side is saying "this IS true Islam". If they remove the legitimacy of the people claiming this IS what must be done to be a good Muslim then you would remove a lot of the fuel.

Part of the answer to your question is this: While IS claims to be fighting a jihad or holy war it isn't - it is fighting a political war with very real social and political reasons underwriting IS's existence and its appeal to certain sections of the Sunni sect of Islam.

Viewing IS, and the ME generally as a religious issue fails to acknowledge those social and political factors. Hence the difficulty in adequately understanding and/or explaining events and forces in the ME in purely religious terms. Winning the ideological argument within Islam will be one component of a successful anti-IS strategy. But it will only ever be one component out of many, and quite inadequate on its own to deliver any kind of lasting comprehensive resolution.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/8/2015 1:22:20 AM >

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 2:03:03 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TieMeInKnottss

Never said the Catholics were peaceful (and, I am not asking about beliefs and/or dogmas). My question is whether or not those who feel their religion has been usurped and whose name is being wrongly used, should get together and take back their religion.

My comparison to Catholicism was just to explain why I tend to believe in the hierarchy that I know most religions don't have. Plus, to explain where my historical reference comes from of having problems with politicians/monarchies taking over and using religion.

Ultimately, my question is...do those who claim that ISIL, the Taliban, the jihadists are NOT true "Muslims" have a responsibility to their own beliefs, to say, " you are not us and get the f-- out. Call yourself the Taliban or the Jihadits...but, unless you follow THESE rules you are NOT one of us and can't use our name"

However, religion is a belief and a dogma. The real problem is the propaganda. Western partisans want everybody to proclaim the problem as radical Islam and if you don't...you just don't get it. But terrorism is not all radical Islam at all and some has little or nothing to do with religion.

It is revenge for the west's hegemony. For some it is purely the west being the middle east at all. For some, it is the collateral murder, and is them seeing no difference in the west's disregard for killing innocents. Some in the middle east fervently believe that the US (the west) started the 'war on terror' over acts of terror and proved it...with two massive invasions.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 12/8/2015 2:06:20 AM >

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 2:47:27 AM   
Rothgart


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Joined: 7/27/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TieMeInKnottss

Usually stay out of here because, while I am an avid follower of current events and world politics, I hate arguing.

I was thinking and started to wonder about something. while I understand why people are fleeing the Mideast and don't agree with the "everyone stand up and fight instead of running away" thing, It hit me...do those who claim that Islam is peaceful and has been hijacked by the ultra-conservative have a responsibility to take back their religion from those that they claim have hijacked it?

I am Catholic. Honestly, I believe in having a religious hierarchy (which I know Islam...like most Christian religions does not have). You have one "ruling body" that makes the rules and excommunicates those who will not follow them...they then go off and make their own religion and don't "sully" us. (Yeah...lots to be said about the various issues and teachings in Catholicism...not going there right now )

Why don't the "peaceful" Muslims unite and take back their religion? I am not talking about politics--theocracies and Islamic nations--there is a HUGE difference in government/rulers and the religions they claim to represent. Forget the ISIL and the Taliban (to me those would be the guys that the religious hierarchy would excommunicate). If true Muslims decided to band together and say " ok" here is our leader and what he says goes (hey...we might not agree with the pope but I agree he has the right to make the decisions), then it would separate the "hijackers" from the truly devout and would remove any legitimacy.

So...why don't the peaceful Muslims get together and say "our name, our rules, get the f-- out. call yourself whatever you want but you are no longer 'Muslims". Hey, for Catholics in medieval times, taking away the name often completely destroyed the governments of those who did not follow what the church said.



Your idea is an interesting one, a central structure that dictates what is appropriate and what is not appropriate in interpretation of the religion. Although Islam does not have anything like a Pope or even clergy, they do have religious scholars that argue the validity of what is to be accepted and what is not--they are called ulema. In his book, Noah Feldman, showed that these ulema used to dictate what is to be accepted and what is not to be accepted (in terms of jurisprudence, Feldman is a law professor), but Feldman argues that the ulema lost their role in society at around the time the Ottoman Empire began its nationalization process (which included secularism). Furthermore, the ulema were used by some states as a method to legitimize state policies, so not only was their role undermined, but they started to be seen as untrustworthy agents of the states that can be exploited and bribed.

But the "peaceful" Muslims (or just ordinary Muslims) are definitely at war with the radical ones, both currently and historically. They currently are in the ground in Syria, with the Kurds and the Syrian Army (both of whom primarily Muslim) are leading the ground battle against ISIS and Al-Nusra, and have been for several years now. Historically, many nationalist leaders have also tried to redefine "Islamism" after they had clashed with Islamists--this was especially the case for Syria, where the government implemented religious studies into school curriculum in attempt to "moderate" the hardliners or at least in attempt to get the role of religious studies out of the hands of the extremists in the 1980s. But it's kind of hard to do that when Saudi Arabia encourages radical Islamism, or when covert action operations empower them. There are a few good papers on this by Joshua Landis and Michael Scheuer, if you are interested.




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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 7:15:46 AM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		But if I was a Muslim, I'm gonna argue non stop about how it was permissible because Muhammad did it. Even if we ditch the older version, it's still a 16 yr old girl. 50 yr old and 16 yr old, just too much for me.

How is it that you claim to live in singapore and do not know that the legal age of consent in singapore is 14?

http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

http://www.ageofconsent.com/singapore.htm

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 7:23:38 AM   
Greta75


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Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
How is it that you claim to live in singapore and do not know that the legal age of consent in singapore is 14?

That's impossible since we have prosecuted so many consensual sex cases for rape of minors, if the girl is 14. In this case, one of the guys was only 18 and his gf 14, and we still prosecuted him. Once an underage girl gets an abortion or gives birth, her boyfriend is screwed. The clinic or hospital catering to them will report the father involve for rape. We take underage sex very seriously here.

So even when my lil brother was 16 yr old, and his gf was 15, and they had sex, I had to seriously give my brother the whole sex education birth control serious talk and explain to him that he better make sure that GF ain't ever gonna report him for having sex with her. It doesn't matter that it's consensual and they were inlove, he will be prosecuted even if his 16.

Here is an example: http://www.tnp.sg/news/singapore-news/man-jailed-18-months-underage-sex-girl-14


< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/8/2015 7:35:41 AM >

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 8:04:52 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Greta75

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
How is it that you claim to live in singapore and do not know that the legal age of consent in singapore is 14?

That's impossible since we have prosecuted so many consensual sex cases for rape of minors, if the girl is 14. In this case, one of the guys was only 18 and his gf 14, and we still prosecuted him. Once an underage girl gets an abortion or gives birth, her boyfriend is screwed. The clinic or hospital catering to them will report the father involve for rape. We take underage sex very seriously here.

If you had taken the time to read the cites provided the 16 year restriction is for prostitutes.



Here is an example: http://www.tnp.sg/news/singapore-news/man-jailed-18-months-underage-sex-girl-14

Facebook articles are your idea of a valid cite????


"The relevant laws that deal with sexual offences against minors are the Penal Code, the Woman’s
Charter, the Children and Young Person Act, the Undesirable Publication Act and the Film Act."

II. Rape
Section 375 of the Penal Code states
" A man is said to commit " rape " who, except in the case hereinafter, has sexual intercourse with
a woman under circumstances falling under any of the five following descriptions :
a) against her will ;
b) without her consent ;
c) with her consent, when her consent has been obtained by putting her in fear of death or hurt ;
d) with her consent, when the man knows that he is not her husband, and her consent is given because she believes herself to be lawfully married or to whom she would consent ;
e) with or without consent, when she is under fourteen (14) years of age. "

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 8:16:50 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Facebook articles are your idea of a valid cite????[8|

TNP is not Facebook. It's our local Newspaper dude! We don't have tabloids in Singapore. Only serious news. You know our government practically bans anything that they feel is publishing nonsense that is not true. For any newspaper to legally operate in Singapore, their news stories have to be authentic, or else they get in trouble. Like there is no way a newspaper in Singapore could accuse Obama for being Muslim without getting in trouble for having to prove it and may be fined hundreds of thousands of dollar when they cannot prove it. Where do you see facebook.com in that url? Don't be an idiot! Evidence in your face and you are denying it.




< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/8/2015 8:23:28 AM >

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 8:18:10 AM   
Staleek


Posts: 361
Joined: 6/1/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TieMeInKnottss

Usually stay out of here because, while I am an avid follower of current events and world politics, I hate arguing.

I was thinking and started to wonder about something. while I understand why people are fleeing the Mideast and don't agree with the "everyone stand up and fight instead of running away" thing, It hit me...do those who claim that Islam is peaceful and has been hijacked by the ultra-conservative have a responsibility to take back their religion from those that they claim have hijacked it?

I am Catholic. Honestly, I believe in having a religious hierarchy (which I know Islam...like most Christian religions does not have). You have one "ruling body" that makes the rules and excommunicates those who will not follow them...they then go off and make their own religion and don't "sully" us. (Yeah...lots to be said about the various issues and teachings in Catholicism...not going there right now )

Why don't the "peaceful" Muslims unite and take back their religion? I am not talking about politics--theocracies and Islamic nations--there is a HUGE difference in government/rulers and the religions they claim to represent. Forget the ISIL and the Taliban (to me those would be the guys that the religious hierarchy would excommunicate). If true Muslims decided to band together and say " ok" here is our leader and what he says goes (hey...we might not agree with the pope but I agree he has the right to make the decisions), then it would separate the "hijackers" from the truly devout and would remove any legitimacy.

So...why don't the peaceful Muslims get together and say "our name, our rules, get the f-- out. call yourself whatever you want but you are no longer 'Muslims". Hey, for Catholics in medieval times, taking away the name often completely destroyed the governments of those who did not follow what the church said.


They already did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring

What happened?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/27/egypt-tear-gas_n_2769908.html
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/10/16/saudi-uae-us-weapons/2992515/
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-russia-arms-idUSBREA0G0MN20140117
http://sputniknews.com/world/20151130/1031012545/uk-arms-middle-east.html

How can we in the West/Russia demand that Muslims take back their countries when we supply their dictators with state of the art weaponry and unlimited ammunition?

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 8:52:10 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: Greta75
ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Facebook articles are your idea of a valid cite????[8|


TNP is not Facebook. It's our local Newspaper dude!


Dude click on the link and it says facebook all over it
Why do you think that is more valid than the official laws of singapore?






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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 10:32:21 AM   
TieMeInKnottss


Posts: 1944
Joined: 9/6/2012
Status: offline 		@Staleek - I think the Arab Spring was more of a movement against the governments and leaders. Technically, Iran has a "religious hierarchy" in the "Supreme Leader" but I am not not talking about overthrowing governments. Granted, I am an American so "church and state" to me have always been separated.

I guess, to me, if a bunch of people started running around enslaving people, blowing up innocent people...and then made a state and claimed it was a Catholic-run government, enacted a bunch of laws that they claimed were based on Catholic doctrine...I would feel compelled to either a) leave the religion (if this was coming from the pope and was actually the Vatican who was changing the religion) or b). I would be complaining in my archdiocese so that the church hierarchy would take up the cause...get it to the Vatican and make sure these idiots were excommunicated.


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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 10:33:43 AM   
TieMeInKnottss


Posts: 1944
Joined: 9/6/2012
Status: offline 		I think I answered my own question. Islam needs excommunication. (Yeah...overly simplistic but has always been effective.)

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 10:37:00 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Why do you think that is more valid than the official laws of singapore?

It is not the official law of Singapore for sex to be legal for 14 yr olds.
You didn't even give a Singaporean website and you want to claim it's Singapore's official law?
I gave you a Singaporean actual case that happened recently, and prosecution, in the second highest circulated newspaper of Singapore, which is the The New Paper, and you think our local papers are lying?
That website of yours you linked was really ignorant and full of shit. The website itself also talks about being confuse themselves.
Here's an FAQ for you to read.

And the legal age for prostitution is 18 BTW! Not 16! That website you linked is wrong about that too! Here's Wiki clearly stating it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Singapore

And this is my favourite Law: http://protectionproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Singapore_TIP-provisions1.pdf
Stroll down to Sexual grooming of a minor, page 5. I felt so happy when they prosecuted quite a few pedophiles on this law! This was before any sex even happened, so it's great!





< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/8/2015 10:58:48 AM >

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RE: Duty of "Peaceful" Muslims - 12/8/2015 11:00:55 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		Do you feel the need to fight and reclaim Christianity whenever a priest molested a child? Do you think you carry all the guilt of the terrible things the church has done over the centuries (inquisition, holy wars, etc.), whenever some radical Christian attacks an abortion clinic or kills a doctor or a nurse, you think you should go there and stop them and reclaim Christianity?

You know if I was a Muslim I wouldn't identify with the violent ones, but I also wouldn't feel that I need to make a stand, just like most Catholics didn't make a stand when it comes to a ton of scandals in the Catholic church.

How would you like to be labelled as a child abuser just because some priests were? Seems pretty unfair, works for other religions too.

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