RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (Full Version)

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freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 12:00:10 PM)

I'm not saying it doesn't happen with Brits or any other western nation.
I have seen a Brit slap his GF around something rotten in ASDA recently and he was subsequently arrested.

What I am saying is it appears to be much more frequent among the Muslims than those who are not Muslims.
The problem as I see it, is that Muslim women are indoctrinated to accept that type of behaviour and according to those who man the Muslim women's help centres the threat of even further beatings for even raising the subject seems to be a common thread with those that have been rescued.

You can always find exceptions to everything, no matter what the subject.
My own personal experience, and snippets of news item that make a mention, seem to bear out that Muslim men on the whole do not treat their women equally.
And while there are many instances of non-Muslim violence against women, the proportion of violence against Muslim women seems to be far greater.
Coupled with the inherent failure of Muslim women to want to report the offences because of the stigma attached in doing so, it certainly seems that the figures we see reported are only the tip of the iceberg.
From the sites I've looked at, violence against women in Muslim countries are above 60% and some are saying as high as 90% and more.
We don't see those sort of figures for non-Muslim countries.

Take Sweden for example, since their immigration policy has allowed a (proportionally) huge number of Islamists to live there, reports of an upsurge of rapes and violence against women is quite profound.
The Gatestone Institute reports: Forty years after the Swedish parliament unanimously decided to change the formerly homogenous Sweden into a multicultural country, violent crime has increased by 300% and rapes by 1,472%. Sweden is now number two on the list of rape countries, surpassed only by Lesotho in Southern Africa.
...Over the past 10-15 years, immigrants have mainly come from Muslim countries such as Iraq, Syria and Somalia. Might this mass influx explain Sweden's rape explosion? It is difficult to give a precise answer, because Swedish law forbids registration based on people's ancestry or religion. One possible explanation is that, on average, people from the Middle East have a vastly different view of women and sex than Scandinavians have. And despite the attempts by the Swedish establishment to convince the population that everyone setting foot on Swedish soil becomes exactly like those who have lived here for dozens of generations, facts point in an altogether different direction.

More: One striking incident occurred in 2013, in the Stockholm suburb of Tensta. A 15-year-old girl was locked up while six men of foreign extraction had sex with her. The lower court convicted the six men but the court of appeals acquitted them because no violence had occurred, and because the court determined that the girl "had not been in a defenseless position."

This month, all major Swedish media reported on a brutal gang rape on board the Finnish Ferry Amorella, running between Stockholm and Åbo in Finland. Big headlines told the readers that the perpetrators were Swedish:
"Several Swedish Men Suspected of Rape on the Finland Ferry" (Dagens Nyheter).
"Six Swedish Men Raped Woman in Cabin" (Aftonbladet).
"Six Swedes Arrested for Rape on Ferry" (Expressen).
"Eight Swedes Suspected of Rape on Ferry" (TT – the Swedish News Agency).
On closer inspection, it turned out that seven of the eight suspects were Somalis and one was Iraqi. None of them had Swedish citizenship, so they were not even Swedish in that sense.
The predominant religion of Somalia and Iraq is Islam.



bounty44 -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 12:19:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek
Religious texts are allegorical to almost all religious adherents. Literalism is a rarity and is actually quite a modern phenomena.


apart from that you are in no position to say such a thing, my goodness you are very wrong...



PeonForHer -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 12:45:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

The problem is tweak, within most christian religions, all those nasty bits are generally skipped over when kids are being taught about the religion.
So while they are indeed present, most just skim over them even if they are avid bible readers.

For those that follow Islam, these behavioural absurdities (to us) are focused upon as being a fundamental point of the religion.


So if one were to look at the statistics of e.g. wife-battering in Britain, say, one could expect to see that as rife amongst Muslims?

No because Islamic women are taught that it is the husbands right and would be unlikely to report it.


The results would be seen at hospitals, though. Medics have learned to recognise the signs of "accidents" being something else.



PeonForHer -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 12:47:24 PM)

quote:


What I am saying is it appears to be much more frequent among the Muslims than those who are not Muslims.


But you've already said that it doesn't appear to be more frequent. Do you have any stats on the situation of UK Muslims, for instance, to back up your anecdotal evidence?



LadyConstanze -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 1:05:09 PM)

FD, your own personal experience might be very clouded from where you are and where you live, I can tell you from my experience that the Muslim women around here seem to be everything but your stereotypical indoctrinated woman, very literate, very educated and quite vocal, they just have a slightly different religion but they don't tend to wear head scarfs unless they go to a mosque.

In Germany a young Muslim girl house sat for me as I was travelling so much and had a huge flat with 4 bedrooms, we had plenty of discussions regarding religion and I asked a lot of questions (that's how I came to actually read their holy book, didn't find it all that different from the bible to be honest), she was from Morocco and one of the questions I had was the usual prejudice that Muslims abuse their women, she laughed and said in Morocco the woman would go to the Mullah and he would have a word with the husband, a guy who abuses the wife is pretty much shunned and has serious problems.

The local council estate is predominantly white, yet get the police statistics, domestic violence seems to happen a lot there, usually fuelled by a few drinks...



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 2:23:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:


What I am saying is it appears to be much more frequent among the Muslims than those who are not Muslims.


But you've already said that it doesn't appear to be more frequent. Do you have any stats on the situation of UK Muslims, for instance, to back up your anecdotal evidence?

Where did I say that Peon??
And as I said, a lot of Muslim women are indoctrinated that it is the way of Islam and they must obey their husband and his wishes.

Did you actually look at the links I gave??
Even Wiki is saying that "Afghanistan has one of the highest incidence rates of domestic violence in the world. Domestic violence is so common that 85 per cent of women admit to experiencing it".
And... "A 2011 report claims 80% of women in Pakistan suffer from domestic abuse".
Yes, we also have domestic violence reported; but nowhere near the level of Afghanistan or Pakistan where the predominant religion and country law is Islamic.

You think there is no link between Islam and the rise of violence against women??
Sweden is reporting that rapes are up by 1,472% and the predominant immigrant is Islamic.
Michael Hess, a local politician from Sweden Democrat Party said "When will you journalists realize that it is deeply rooted in Islam's culture to rape and brutalize women who refuse to comply with Islamic teachings. There is a strong connection between rapes in Sweden and the number of immigrants from MENA-countries [Middle East and North Africa]".
Yeah... read it again, it's not a typo - a 1,472% rise in rapes alone since Islamic immigrants were allowed in.

From the Telegraph: Sadly, it's impossible to know just how many are suffering right now. Figures for violence against women in the Muslim community remain elusive.

Last year, the Home Office Forced Marriage Unit was informed of 1,302 cases. Of these, 15 per cent of victims were under 15, though figures peaked in the 16 to 17 age group, coinciding with the age that young women finish school. While the the Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organisation found, under the Freedom of Information act, that more than 2,800 incidents of ‘honour’ based violence were reported to police across the UK in 2010.

And the case of Shabana: A few weeks later, while Shabana was at a driving lesson, their uncle turned up at the family home and offered to take her 11-year-old sister shopping. Instead he took the terrified youngster to their grandmother’s flat and tried to rape her.

“When I got home, she started crying and said 'it's uncle, he kissed me touched me and make me do things'. I screamed the house down and phoned the police. Even then, my mum told me to stop so we could deal with it within the family. But I knew they just wanted to talk me out of it.“

More: Their uncle pleaded guilty to assault and oral rape and was sentenced to 64 months in prison in June.

“Shabana added; “A helpline is needed because many Muslim women don’t have anybody to turn to. It's not talked about in our communities.”

One of the most recent cases the MWNUK dealt with that concerning a 17-year-old victim of forced marriage. Aisha* faced months of emotional and physical abuse by her parents before she was taken to Pakistan to wed her 30-year-old cousin, who she’d never even met.

“It started off with lectures about family honour, but then they started beating me with leather belts. They took away my phone, purse and Western clothes. I wasn't allowed see my friends or go to the shop unaccompanied,” she explained.

When Aisha arrived in Pakistan, she was warned that if she didn’t play the role of the happy bride, she would die.

“With my dad, it wasn’t about family honour, but his honour. He threatened to kill me if I didn’t go through with it. I knew he meant it.

“On the wedding night, I told my husband that I didn't want to sleep with him, so he forced me. He raped me three or four times each night. Then, in the morning, I had to pretend I was happy

Shabana’s uncle was arrested, but as the trial date got nearer, the pressure on her to withdraw the case grew.

“Our whole family was against us. They went on about family honour, playing the religious card to make us feel guilty and accused my sister of leading him on”.

Even More: Among them was a young woman, raped by 30 men, including a father and his schoolboy son, during a horrific six-hour attack. The common factor in each case? That cultural and religious issues were perpetuating the abuse and preventing victims from accessing help.

Unfortunately, these are not isolated incidents and more are coming to light as more Muslim women are finding the courage to speak up.

With last year's grooming racket up north, all the perpetrators were of Pakistani origin and all Muslim.
The recent spate of honour killings around the country are all perpetrated by Muslims and even more are coming to light as Police are starting to get their act together.



BamaD -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 2:32:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

The problem is tweak, within most christian religions, all those nasty bits are generally skipped over when kids are being taught about the religion.
So while they are indeed present, most just skim over them even if they are avid bible readers.

For those that follow Islam, these behavioural absurdities (to us) are focused upon as being a fundamental point of the religion.


So if one were to look at the statistics of e.g. wife-battering in Britain, say, one could expect to see that as rife amongst Muslims?

No because Islamic women are taught that it is the husbands right and would be unlikely to report it.


The results would be seen at hospitals, though. Medics have learned to recognise the signs of "accidents" being something else.


And unless it is much different than here it still doesn't show up as domestic abuse without someone witnessing it and testifing, so if the wife won't press charges it still doesn't show up. A common occurance in domestic violence in all cultures.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 2:43:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

The problem is tweak, within most christian religions, all those nasty bits are generally skipped over when kids are being taught about the religion.
So while they are indeed present, most just skim over them even if they are avid bible readers.

For those that follow Islam, these behavioural absurdities (to us) are focused upon as being a fundamental point of the religion.


So if one were to look at the statistics of e.g. wife-battering in Britain, say, one could expect to see that as rife amongst Muslims?

No because Islamic women are taught that it is the husbands right and would be unlikely to report it.


The results would be seen at hospitals, though. Medics have learned to recognise the signs of "accidents" being something else.


And unless it is much different than here it still doesn't show up as domestic abuse without someone witnessing it and testifing, so if the wife won't press charges it still doesn't show up. A common occurance in domestic violence in all cultures.



Not here, trust me, I was knocked out by our huge male Dobie who sadly passed away 2 weeks ago, completely my own fault as I whispered "walkies" into his ear, Alfie jumped up and I was out cold as his hard head hit my chin, hubby brought me to the ER and I was grilled regarding domestic violence, they even got a social worker in, especially when somebody noticed I was bruised and scratched (cat needing meds and kickboxing), I told them cat claws as he doesn't like to take his meds and asked them to ring up the dojo and the vet. They wanted to call the police in, hubby had to answer all sorts of nasty questions, I finally pulled out my iPhone and showed them a picture of Alfie next to me and a picture we took when I had to give the cat meds and he was all claws. Legally they do have to report any injury that just doesn't add up completely or arouses the slightest suspicion, they even went through my files and brought up every fracture from the past few years.



PeonForHer -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 2:57:40 PM)

quote:


Where did I say that Peon??
And as I said, a lot of Muslim women are indoctrinated that it is the way of Islam and they must obey their husband and his wishes.

Did you actually look at the links I gave??
Even Wiki is saying that "Afghanistan has one of the highest incidence rates of domestic violence in the world. Domestic violence is so common that 85 per cent of women admit to experiencing it". ... [etc]


I asked you about Britain, FD. Muslims in Britain. Please don't pretend that you didn't see that or swish it away as though it's not relevant.

I've said it before, and I'll continue to say it, till it finally cracks a hole into the consciousnesses of people such as you seem to be: Religion does not determine everything that all people are and what they will do. We don't expect that the average person brought up as a Christian in, say, Africa, or the UK, or the USA, will hold to the same values and want to do the same things. You yourself *know* that, for instance, a fine upstanding Christian in the USA will hold to a view of guns and killing that a fine, upstanding Christian in the UK will find abhorrent. So why the *feck* would it be different for Muslims? Why do you *continue* to talk of, say, the average British Muslim, born and brought up here, never having seen a war, doing well for himself in his job in the corner shop - as somehow exactly 'of a type' with a Syrian who's just seen his wife and children killed by sarin gas by Assad's bombers? If *you* were a prosperous UK Muslim shopkeeper, versus a Syrian Muslim who'd just seen his family killed - do you think it might, just possibly, make a difference to your outlook? Could you try to imagine that, if at all possible, for a second?

I don't get what is the matter with you, FD. People who live ordinary, peaceful, prosperous lives tend to have views that reflect that. People who live in terror and witness horrific things happening to their loved ones tend to have views that reflect that instead. Against all the monumental frigging evidence against such an inane analyisis you * continue* to "demonstrate" what any Muslim, anywhere, will think and do by referencing the Koran. I'm bereft of words as to how blitheringly stupid this is. It demonstrates zero understanding of psychology, of sociology, of culture, of politics. The world, and the people in it, simply do not work this way.

You know that, though. You know that poor British people will live a life and hold all sorts of attitudes and beliefs that are different to those of rich British people. So why the difference with Muslims? How come everything about *them* is written in the Koran and has fuck all to do with anything else going on their lives?



MariaB -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 3:26:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

The problem is tweak, within most christian religions, all those nasty bits are generally skipped over when kids are being taught about the religion.
So while they are indeed present, most just skim over them even if they are avid bible readers.

For those that follow Islam, these behavioural absurdities (to us) are focused upon as being a fundamental point of the religion.

There's the major difference between the two approaches.



You know this? Have you lived there amongst these people? did you go to school there?

edited because I've no read the entire post.

Both Peon and LC are spot on...thank God for some sanity in this utter madness!

FreedomDwarf. I've lived amongst Muslims in East London and I've lived amongst Muslims in Iran as well as speaking fluent Farci. My experiences which are far more abundant than yours are this: Most Muslim men highly regard their wives, sisters and daughters. She is considered the giver of life, a person who deserves the utmost respect and protection from harm. A well known saying from men in Iran is, "If anything harms my woman I will rip out my eyes because I failed to protect her".

A man who beats or mistreats his wife, daughters, sisters, is seen as a monster among both women and men and will be ostracised as such. In Iranian households you will see women laughing, giggling, shrieking, joking, attention seeking, being demanding, bossing, loving and enjoying their family, just the same as here in the West.

You have built up a very unrealistic picture to suit your own prejudices but you're wrong on so many levels. You're like the peeping tom who sees nothing but believes you've seen everything.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 3:40:14 PM)

Peon, my post#47 was mainly UK. Or did you not read it properly??

The point I am making is that in Islamic countries, violence against women is rife.
In Sweden, where there weren't any Muslims until 40 years ago, the rise in violence against women has rocketed and mainly by Muslim men.
In the UK, we are discovering more and more violence against Muslim women as they are slowly getting a voice.

Violence against women is prevalent within Islam because it's sanctioned by the Qur'an, the book by which most of them live by.
The fact that the Telegraph reported that cultural and religious issues were perpetuating the abuse and preventing victims from accessing help is something we are slowly uncovering in the UK.
Just because we aren't seeing it doesn't mean it isn't happening.
It is a well-hidden scourge among the Muslims and until very recently the police have dodged the issue completely for fear of racist reprisals. The scandal of the Staffordshire police for this lack of investigating is just one of several cases that came to light recently.

To deny it because you don't see it is being an ostrich.
Look at the UK 30-40 years ago... Domestic violence was virtually unheard of until women plucked up the courage to speak out about it.
Until 1991, British women couldn't be raped by their husbands - that has now changed and further enhanced in 2003.
Muslim women here are basically in the same position. Shabana's story is one of many.
These women need a voice and help to bring it out into the open for others to see it for what it is, not be denied by non-believers because they want to be PC and believe it isn't happening right under their noses in our wonderful 'multicultural Britain' where everything is all nice and rosy.
The problem won't go away if we ignore it and continue to deny its existence.




BamaD -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 3:45:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

The problem is tweak, within most christian religions, all those nasty bits are generally skipped over when kids are being taught about the religion.
So while they are indeed present, most just skim over them even if they are avid bible readers.

For those that follow Islam, these behavioural absurdities (to us) are focused upon as being a fundamental point of the religion.


So if one were to look at the statistics of e.g. wife-battering in Britain, say, one could expect to see that as rife amongst Muslims?

No because Islamic women are taught that it is the husbands right and would be unlikely to report it.


The results would be seen at hospitals, though. Medics have learned to recognise the signs of "accidents" being something else.


And unless it is much different than here it still doesn't show up as domestic abuse without someone witnessing it and testifing, so if the wife won't press charges it still doesn't show up. A common occurance in domestic violence in all cultures.



Not here, trust me, I was knocked out by our huge male Dobie who sadly passed away 2 weeks ago, completely my own fault as I whispered "walkies" into his ear, Alfie jumped up and I was out cold as his hard head hit my chin, hubby brought me to the ER and I was grilled regarding domestic violence, they even got a social worker in, especially when somebody noticed I was bruised and scratched (cat needing meds and kickboxing), I told them cat claws as he doesn't like to take his meds and asked them to ring up the dojo and the vet. They wanted to call the police in, hubby had to answer all sorts of nasty questions, I finally pulled out my iPhone and showed them a picture of Alfie next to me and a picture we took when I had to give the cat meds and he was all claws. Legally they do have to report any injury that just doesn't add up completely or arouses the slightest suspicion, they even went through my files and brought up every fracture from the past few years.

I got a lot of questions when my son got hurt in martial arts.
But that still didn't mean it showed up as a child abuse case.
And with yours, it still didn't hit the books as domestic abuse.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 3:53:08 PM)

quote:

Look at the UK 30-40 years ago... Domestic violence was virtually unheard of until women plucked up the courage to speak out about it.
Until 1991, British women couldn't be raped by their husbands - that has now changed and further enhanced in 2003.


So we really aren't THAT far ahead of Muslim countries, are we?

But please do get involved with charities dealing with domestic violence, it's an eye opener, there is no denying that there is a certain percentage of Muslims, but you have to take into account that those are recent people, 2nd and 3rd generation tend to be completely different, I'm not saying it's OK but it is more understandable, they come to the country without an idea, often not speaking the language, instead of being integrated they are shunned and treated like dirt, duh, why don't they integrate under those circumstances? Don't you think it's far more shocking that a lot of domestic violence in Britain is still happening with your average British family where she can't afford to leave him, so in a lot of cases she won't report it as she has nowhere to go? Because even if she leaves him, she is often told that she shouldn't have moved out and there is no space available for her and the kids... So she is stuck in the environment, she can force him to move out, try and live of a very meager support system and be surrounded by his friends and family, life is so pleasant, you still believe British women report domestic violence? Really?



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 3:53:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

The problem is tweak, within most christian religions, all those nasty bits are generally skipped over when kids are being taught about the religion.
So while they are indeed present, most just skim over them even if they are avid bible readers.

For those that follow Islam, these behavioural absurdities (to us) are focused upon as being a fundamental point of the religion.

There's the major difference between the two approaches.



You know this? Have you lived there amongst these people? did you go to school there?


Yes, I lived in the middle of the Islamic section of Peterborough for several years.
My kids went to school where out of almost 1200 pupils, only 6 were white and non-Islamic, including my two.
We befriended many Muslims and spoke to many Muslim wives.
My observations are as I posted.
The experiences in post#39 were from Peterborough.

Where I live now is on the edge of a predominantly Islamic section of the community.
I have had constant arguments at the local school about how they are teaching RE in the classes.
When the school changed to a different academy last year, the RE teacher was fired for not following the curriculum as defined by the Education Authority.

So yes, I know this and have first-hand experience of it.



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 4:05:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

Look at the UK 30-40 years ago... Domestic violence was virtually unheard of until women plucked up the courage to speak out about it.
Until 1991, British women couldn't be raped by their husbands - that has now changed and further enhanced in 2003.


So we really aren't THAT far ahead of Muslim countries, are we?

But please do get involved with charities dealing with domestic violence, it's an eye opener, there is no denying that there is a certain percentage of Muslims, but you have to take into account that those are recent people, 2nd and 3rd generation tend to be completely different, I'm not saying it's OK but it is more understandable, they come to the country without an idea, often not speaking the language, instead of being integrated they are shunned and treated like dirt, duh, why don't they integrate under those circumstances? Don't you think it's far more shocking that a lot of domestic violence in Britain is still happening with your average British family where she can't afford to leave him, so in a lot of cases she won't report it as she has nowhere to go? Because even if she leaves him, she is often told that she shouldn't have moved out and there is no space available for her and the kids... So she is stuck in the environment, she can force him to move out, try and live of a very meager support system and be surrounded by his friends and family, life is so pleasant, you still believe British women report domestic violence? Really?

British non-Muslim women do report a lot more violence that they used to a few decades ago.
And my local Women's shelter where my step-daughter has a friend seems to have doubled in size in just the last year alone and pretty much most of the new ladies are Muslims fleeing an abusive husband and fear an honour killing is imminent.
Personally, I don't think we are that far removed from Islamic countries when it comes to our close-knit Muslim communities.

I agree, many women get stuck because of a lack of support.
But many Muslim women are stuck for additional reasons of religious dogma and prejudice.
If my local Women's shelter is anything to go by, the Muslim women found they had death threats from their husband if they dared report it because the Qur'an allowed their husband to behave in this way.
They also feared being admonished from Islam by their husbands and family which carries the death penalty.
Honour killings are on the rise too - usually performed by family members.




LadyPact -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 4:06:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Peon, my post#47 was mainly UK. Or did you not read it properly??

The point I am making is that in Islamic countries, violence against women is rife.
In Sweden, where there weren't any Muslims until 40 years ago, the rise in violence against women has rocketed and mainly by Muslim men.
In the UK, we are discovering more and more violence against Muslim women as they are slowly getting a voice.

Violence against women is prevalent within Islam because it's sanctioned by the Qur'an, the book by which most of them live by.
The fact that the Telegraph reported that cultural and religious issues were perpetuating the abuse and preventing victims from accessing help is something we are slowly uncovering in the UK.
Just because we aren't seeing it doesn't mean it isn't happening.
It is a well-hidden scourge among the Muslims and until very recently the police have dodged the issue completely for fear of racist reprisals. The scandal of the Staffordshire police for this lack of investigating is just one of several cases that came to light recently.

To deny it because you don't see it is being an ostrich.
Look at the UK 30-40 years ago... Domestic violence was virtually unheard of until women plucked up the courage to speak out about it.
Until 1991, British women couldn't be raped by their husbands - that has now changed and further enhanced in 2003.
Muslim women here are basically in the same position. Shabana's story is one of many.
These women need a voice and help to bring it out into the open for others to see it for what it is, not be denied by non-believers because they want to be PC and believe it isn't happening right under their noses in our wonderful 'multicultural Britain' where everything is all nice and rosy.
The problem won't go away if we ignore it and continue to deny its existence.



[sm=thanks.gif]



LadyConstanze -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 4:15:09 PM)

You know we had a friend in Peterborough, lovely area but it seems to be very very white, we went there regularly and for the life of me, I can't imagine 6 out of 1200 pupils were white, seems more likely the other way round, we went there at least once a month and our friend's wife was American and of mixed racial background, she felt odd there, because it was so predominantly white and they did let her know that she wasn't. One of the reasons why he sold a fabulous Victorian house and took a job in the US, as his wife and kids were regularly taunted for being not lily white.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 4:29:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

Look at the UK 30-40 years ago... Domestic violence was virtually unheard of until women plucked up the courage to speak out about it.
Until 1991, British women couldn't be raped by their husbands - that has now changed and further enhanced in 2003.


So we really aren't THAT far ahead of Muslim countries, are we?

But please do get involved with charities dealing with domestic violence, it's an eye opener, there is no denying that there is a certain percentage of Muslims, but you have to take into account that those are recent people, 2nd and 3rd generation tend to be completely different, I'm not saying it's OK but it is more understandable, they come to the country without an idea, often not speaking the language, instead of being integrated they are shunned and treated like dirt, duh, why don't they integrate under those circumstances? Don't you think it's far more shocking that a lot of domestic violence in Britain is still happening with your average British family where she can't afford to leave him, so in a lot of cases she won't report it as she has nowhere to go? Because even if she leaves him, she is often told that she shouldn't have moved out and there is no space available for her and the kids... So she is stuck in the environment, she can force him to move out, try and live of a very meager support system and be surrounded by his friends and family, life is so pleasant, you still believe British women report domestic violence? Really?

British non-Muslim women do report a lot more violence that they used to a few decades ago.
And my local Women's shelter where my step-daughter has a friend seems to have doubled in size in just the last year alone and pretty much most of the new ladies are Muslims fleeing an abusive husband and fear an honour killing is imminent.
Personally, I don't think we are that far removed from Islamic countries when it comes to our close-knit Muslim communities.

I agree, many women get stuck because of a lack of support.
But many Muslim women are stuck for additional reasons of religious dogma and prejudice.
If my local Women's shelter is anything to go by, the Muslim women found they had death threats from their husband if they dared report it because the Qur'an allowed their husband to behave in this way.
They also feared being admonished from Islam by their husbands and family which carries the death penalty.
Honour killings are on the rise too - usually performed by family members.





You are arguing the underbelly of Muslims, that's like if you're taking a bunch of chavs from a council estate, sort of 3rd generation welfare, zero education and a bunch of asbos and petty crime records a mile long and claim they are typical for all Brits.

You also have to take into account that Islam is about 600 years younger than Christianity, you really want to go back 600 years and look what Christianity did then and claim that was much better than Islam? Guys being allowed to beat the wives and daughters (as manifested in the bible), women being property and could be disposed of if they didn't deliver sons, in the case of Henry VIII behaeded...

Seriously, without Islam, where would we be culturally? The Church whipped out medical records from the Greeks, so thanks to the Persians and Turks we got Maths, seriously 600 years ago the predominant religion of the west was nothing but barbarism, a bunch of loonies who had people running for the colonies to escape, you could get burned for saying the earth isn't the center of the universe.

We RECENTLY made rape in marriage a crime and we get on our high horse? It's really not like we're THAT advanced



BamaD -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 4:40:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

Look at the UK 30-40 years ago... Domestic violence was virtually unheard of until women plucked up the courage to speak out about it.
Until 1991, British women couldn't be raped by their husbands - that has now changed and further enhanced in 2003.


So we really aren't THAT far ahead of Muslim countries, are we?

But please do get involved with charities dealing with domestic violence, it's an eye opener, there is no denying that there is a certain percentage of Muslims, but you have to take into account that those are recent people, 2nd and 3rd generation tend to be completely different, I'm not saying it's OK but it is more understandable, they come to the country without an idea, often not speaking the language, instead of being integrated they are shunned and treated like dirt, duh, why don't they integrate under those circumstances? Don't you think it's far more shocking that a lot of domestic violence in Britain is still happening with your average British family where she can't afford to leave him, so in a lot of cases she won't report it as she has nowhere to go? Because even if she leaves him, she is often told that she shouldn't have moved out and there is no space available for her and the kids... So she is stuck in the environment, she can force him to move out, try and live of a very meager support system and be surrounded by his friends and family, life is so pleasant, you still believe British women report domestic violence? Really?

British non-Muslim women do report a lot more violence that they used to a few decades ago.
And my local Women's shelter where my step-daughter has a friend seems to have doubled in size in just the last year alone and pretty much most of the new ladies are Muslims fleeing an abusive husband and fear an honour killing is imminent.
Personally, I don't think we are that far removed from Islamic countries when it comes to our close-knit Muslim communities.

I agree, many women get stuck because of a lack of support.
But many Muslim women are stuck for additional reasons of religious dogma and prejudice.
If my local Women's shelter is anything to go by, the Muslim women found they had death threats from their husband if they dared report it because the Qur'an allowed their husband to behave in this way.
They also feared being admonished from Islam by their husbands and family which carries the death penalty.
Honour killings are on the rise too - usually performed by family members.



Honor killings are, by definition, performed by family members.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Would people defend Hijab wearing women being beaten in public? (12/15/2015 4:53:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

The problem is tweak, within most christian religions, all those nasty bits are generally skipped over when kids are being taught about the religion.
So while they are indeed present, most just skim over them even if they are avid bible readers.

For those that follow Islam, these behavioural absurdities (to us) are focused upon as being a fundamental point of the religion.


So if one were to look at the statistics of e.g. wife-battering in Britain, say, one could expect to see that as rife amongst Muslims?

No because Islamic women are taught that it is the husbands right and would be unlikely to report it.


The results would be seen at hospitals, though. Medics have learned to recognise the signs of "accidents" being something else.


And unless it is much different than here it still doesn't show up as domestic abuse without someone witnessing it and testifing, so if the wife won't press charges it still doesn't show up. A common occurance in domestic violence in all cultures.



Not here, trust me, I was knocked out by our huge male Dobie who sadly passed away 2 weeks ago, completely my own fault as I whispered "walkies" into his ear, Alfie jumped up and I was out cold as his hard head hit my chin, hubby brought me to the ER and I was grilled regarding domestic violence, they even got a social worker in, especially when somebody noticed I was bruised and scratched (cat needing meds and kickboxing), I told them cat claws as he doesn't like to take his meds and asked them to ring up the dojo and the vet. They wanted to call the police in, hubby had to answer all sorts of nasty questions, I finally pulled out my iPhone and showed them a picture of Alfie next to me and a picture we took when I had to give the cat meds and he was all claws. Legally they do have to report any injury that just doesn't add up completely or arouses the slightest suspicion, they even went through my files and brought up every fracture from the past few years.

I got a lot of questions when my son got hurt in martial arts.
But that still didn't mean it showed up as a child abuse case.
And with yours, it still didn't hit the books as domestic abuse.



Because it wasn't domestic abuse but we spent about 6 hours arguing the case that it WASN'T, I kept telling them what happened over and over again, hubby kept telling them. Why on earth would it make the books as domestic abuse when it wasn't? Don't you think being questioned for much longer than treatment for a simple concussion takes is bad enough? Now oddly enough the Drs said I should go home and rest, how I would have loved to do that with a pounding headache and a chin that felt twice the size it should be, yet I was held and questioned. FFS, I am in the hospital once every 3 months but usually somebody from the dojo brings me, with martial arts you do dislocate joints or sprain wrists and ankles, and since we're usually in our "white jammies" it's OK, only if hubby brings me in it's a big issue... So you think a woman with a veil will be questioned less? Think again



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