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RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 9:18:52 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

I always stop scenes before I get to a point where I can't make the decision for myself these days. 

A much more likely reason is that I call an end to scenes that I participate in when I start feeling the buzz of an endorphine and seratonin high, so that I don't get to a point where I'm not capable of thinking clearly about my own well being.


I feel saddened by this for you. I understand that you are doing what feels right for you but it saddens me that you feel the need to shortchange yourself from such an awesome experience. I don't think that for myself, I would get any real fulfillment if I had to do it the way that you do. It is my hope that one day you will be in the hands of someone that you can trust so completely and let go and just enjoy the experience.


I don't see it as shortchanging myself.  I don't particularly enjoy being out of control over my own body.  I rarely drink to the point of more than a very mild buzz unless I am at home, absolutely alone, with little potential for someone to show up unexpectedly.  I shun drugs like the plague.  I avoid them because I do not like the effect they have of inducing a loss of control over my own reactions. Those two things being the case, why would I then turn around and seek out a state in SM play that - if pushed far enough - causes the same TYPE of reaction?  It's not a matter of "having" to do things this way - it is flat out a choice that I made.  Part of that choice sprang from my dislike of losing control over my own body.  Part of the choice sprang from my unwillingness to relinquish responcibility to someone else, and my unwillingness to relinquish control over my ultimate reactions to someone else.
 
Part of it though - sprang from a dislike for the peer pressure I percieved while I was still willing to consider myself submissive rather than a bottom - and still percieve even now, expressed in various subtle manners.  It's the same sort of pressure that is subtly placed on people to embrace power dynamics or be considered "less" in the world of kink these days.  (And before any of you loudly proclaim that there is no such pressure - what else would you consider things like ... oh... kink sites pidgeon holing people into power dynamic descriptives? Or the far to frequently heard derogatory statements about "bedroom submissives" or "just a bottom" as though a preference for power exchange is somehow inherantly superior?) Only in this case, it's a pressure to feel like there is something inherantly wrong with yourself, as a maso/bottom/sub/slave if you don't easily and frequently slip into a state of extreme endorphine high  grandiosly called "sub space."  I have always been of the opinion that part of the glory of BDSM is the celebration of Individuality and breaking away from being pressured into conformity with some external "norm."
 
(No, this is not meant to imply that anyone specifically has in any way intentionally or consciously expressed an opinion that came across as that sort of peer pressure.  Nor is it meant to imply, in any way, that those who Enjoy that sort of high or who DO seek it out are wrong.  They are right for themselves, just as I am.  It's that standard disclaimer thing here - opinions, milage, yada yada... if the shoe doesn't fit, then please don't force yourself to shove your own foot into it.)

_____________________________

Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 10:26:33 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IndigoDadesi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaft?


Something about traveling on a boat?



Danube steam shipping company

Donau - dampf - schif - fahrts - gesellschaft

Actually, I like Donaydampfshiffahrtsgesellschaftskapitaenskajuetenschluesseloch better.  More descriptive, and therefore easier to remember.

However, if you prefer to use English, you can just use pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis.  This helps prevent the confusion of using a foreign language word, that might be difficult to remember.

FHky

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 7/21/2006 10:47:05 AM >

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to IndigoDadesi)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 11:30:39 AM   
Tikkiee


Posts: 1099
Joined: 4/6/2006
Status: offline 		For myself, having a safeword would be totally useless for the simple fact that I have flashbacks. They can happen anytime, anywhere. If I am in the middle of a scene, and this happens; having a safeword becomes totally useless because quite frankly, you would not be able to get anything out of me.
For me, the absolute only safe way to play is to know my partner, and for my partner to know me; EXTREMELY well. Either that or I have a second person there who does know me, and recognizes the change in expression on my face or in the way I move.

_____________________________

~~@ cass @~~

(in reply to Master96)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 12:34:05 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
I completely understand, and if thats your choice - more power to you.  I admire the power of your conviction.  My only concern is new bdsmers always being told they must have a safeword and not really being taught or being explained to them that it is a good idea not to rely on them.
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to hizgeorgiapeach)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 12:37:00 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamscape

It is simply a matter of choice. I have a great deal of respect for other peoples views, but the fact remains that people do not agree on everything. I think that people forget that, or assume that their opinion is the only right one.

I do not understand why people get so offended by anothers opinion. They are not forcing their opinion into your head with a steel probe.....so just listen, and agree or disagree as you feel you must.   



I dream a dark dream; pain, pleasure, and endless submission.


I see no one being offended, I see a good discussion on the pros and cons of safeword usage.  Rhi made some excellent points and without them, there wouldn't be a balanced discussion.  No one can force any opinions - only give out what they think.
Force wouldnt be very BDSM now, would it?
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to dreamscape)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 12:43:08 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

Part of it though - sprang from a dislike for the peer pressure I percieved while I was still willing to consider myself submissive rather than a bottom - and still percieve even now, expressed in various subtle manners.  It's the same sort of pressure that is subtly placed on people to embrace power dynamics or be considered "less" in the world of kink these days.  (And before any of you loudly proclaim that there is no such pressure - what else would you consider things like ... oh... kink sites pidgeon holing people into power dynamic descriptives? Or the far to frequently heard derogatory statements about "bedroom submissives" or "just a bottom" as though a preference for power exchange is somehow inherantly superior?) Only in this case, it's a pressure to feel like there is something inherantly wrong with yourself, as a maso/bottom/sub/slave if you don't easily and frequently slip into a state of extreme endorphine high  grandiosly called "sub space."  I have always been of the opinion that part of the glory of BDSM is the celebration of Individuality and breaking away from being pressured into conformity with some external "norm."
 
Rhi -
Bloody excellent post.  I totally agree.  There is sooooo much pressure and expectation and 'this ways the right way' and 'this orientation is better'.  I got into BDSM because of the idea of the celebration of the individual - not to be accused of being less just because I don't always fall into subspace, or because I may occasionally scene just for the sensation and not for the PE.
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to hizgeorgiapeach)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 3:18:26 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

I always stop scenes before I get to a point where I can't make the decision for myself these days. 

A much more likely reason is that I call an end to scenes that I participate in when I start feeling the buzz of an endorphine and seratonin high, so that I don't get to a point where I'm not capable of thinking clearly about my own well being.


I hope that you are prefect in this regard!  I hope you never accidently slip into a situation that you fail to have that decision power to make the decisions that are best for you.  It could be a very rather bumpy ride if you ever make that mistake!  For you and the Top,

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 3:48:04 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

I always stop scenes before I get to a point where I can't make the decision for myself these days. 

A much more likely reason is that I call an end to scenes that I participate in when I start feeling the buzz of an endorphine and seratonin high, so that I don't get to a point where I'm not capable of thinking clearly about my own well being.


I hope that you are prefect in this regard!  I hope you never accidently slip into a situation that you fail to have that decision power to make the decisions that are best for you.  It could be a very rather bumpy ride if you ever make that mistake!  For you and the Top,


None of us is Perfect, KoM.  Not me.  Not you.  Not JoeBlowTop down the street.  I don't expect myself to be pefect any more than I expect a play partner to be perfect. 
 
I do, however, expect my play partners not to attempt to dictate to me when they know that I won't do power exchange.  If I tell them stop, I expect them to damned well stop - whether that's because I say "stop" or because I say "red" or because I say "qumquat" if we've agreed that that's an indication to stop.  I expect them to respect the boundries that I have set - and not to cross those boundries in some misguided sense that they're better able to make judgements about what's going on with my body.  I expect them to be responcible for Themselves and call a halt to a scene if they are approaching a level they are uncomfortable with - rather than expecting me to call a halt when *I think they may be approaching their limit.  And I expect the same of myself (that sense of personal responcibility), and to be displayed Towards myself - that they take into account that I'm a responcible adult capable of looking after their own best interest, and will call a halt if I'm approaching a point where I don't want to go.

_____________________________

Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 3:58:58 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
I hope that you are prefect in this regard!  I hope you never accidently slip into a situation that you fail to have that decision power to make the decisions that are best for you.  It could be a very rather bumpy ride if you ever make that mistake!  For you and the Top,


None of us is Perfect, KoM.  Not me.  Not you.  Not JoeBlowTop down the street.  I don't expect myself to be pefect any more than I expect a play partner to be perfect. 
 
I do, however, expect my play partners not to attempt to dictate to me when they know that I won't do power exchange.  If I tell them stop, I expect them to damned well stop - whether that's because I say "stop" or because I say "red" or because I say "qumquat" if we've agreed that that's an indication to stop.  I expect them to respect the boundries that I have set - and not to cross those boundries in some misguided sense that they're better able to make judgements about what's going on with my body.  I expect them to be responcible for Themselves and call a halt to a scene if they are approaching a level they are uncomfortable with - rather than expecting me to call a halt when *I think they may be approaching their limit.  And I expect the same of myself (that sense of personal responcibility), and to be displayed Towards myself - that they take into account that I'm a responcible adult capable of looking after their own best interest, and will call a halt if I'm approaching a point where I don't want to go.


Yes this is very nice...  But you never actually addressed what I said....

You have alot of great expectations..... Except you forget the most important one.... Expect Mistakes!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to hizgeorgiapeach)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 4:02:24 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		But mistakes happen to people without safewords, and with capable loving tops. Mistakes are part of parcel of life. I could make a mistake and step in front of a fast moving car tomorrow. I could mistakenly trust that my Tylenol wasn't tampered with. I could mistakenly believe my husband faithful and he could give me AIDs.. that is why many are RACK I believe.. it is being risk aware, not without risk. I do not know what in her posts puts her at risk more than anyone else.. just my view though

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 4:09:12 PM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: enthralled

Knowing my luck, if I did have a dominant, he'd write my safeword on a 4"x6" postcard, with a 12point font, in German, and paste it on the wall ten feet in front of the cross I'm on  ..... LOL

~enthralled


I think Im dating your future dom.
Welcome to the family.


_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to enthralled)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 4:10:47 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

But mistakes happen to people without safewords, and with capable loving tops. Mistakes are part of parcel of life. I could make a mistake and step in front of a fast moving car tomorrow. I could mistakenly trust that my Tylenol wasn't tampered with. I could mistakenly believe my husband faithful and he could give me AIDs.. that is why many are RACK I believe.. it is being risk aware, not without risk. I do not know what in her posts puts her at risk more than anyone else.. just my view though


Yup ... mistakes happen to us all....  and yes I am a believer in the Rack concept.

One of the things about Risk is being aware of them. One should look at their own attitude and mindsets and consider how it puts them at Risk.  To often we see the Risk externally... but we forget to look at how we put ourselves at Risk... not just our choices but on our beliefs, values and attitudes.

It's not a question one being at more Risk.... but is one actually aware of the Risk!  Sometimes the greatest consequences don't occur from the Risk we are aware of..... but the Risk we blind ourselves too or catch us unaware.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 4:18:29 PM   
dorsaisgirl1


Posts: 156
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		if  i feel i need daddy to stop i say daddy please i cant take no more then he desides becouse he knows me better than anyone else weather the situation means stop or slow............daddy does not gag me very often but when he has he has been abel to read me ,and know when he needs to stop.

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 4:39:05 PM   
sharainks


Posts: 499
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		My first dom gave me a safeword and then for the rest of the time we were together proved to me that I didn't need one.  I never needed it.  He was so exquisitely observant that it was never needed. 

After that I've never had much luck safewording.  To me is is taking control of what is happening.  It doesn't feel right and somehow even if thats what the dom expects, I seem to feel though I have somehow lost something in doing so. In reality safewording is a form of control of the situation.  I think with a watchful dominant who cares about the submissive there is little point in them.  I do like the ANKLE thing though. 

(in reply to dorsaisgirl1)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 6:38:40 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL KnightofMists]
quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

None of us is Perfect, KoM.  Not me.  Not you.  Not JoeBlowTop down the street.  I don't expect myself to be pefect any more than I expect a play partner to be perfect.  


Yes this is very nice...  But you never actually addressed what I said....

You have alot of great expectations..... Except you forget the most important one.... Expect Mistakes!


Damn, and here I thought a clear statement that I don't consider anyone perfect was a pretty good indication that I figure mistakes are going to happen.  Then again, so did the arguement I made earlier in this debate, a couple of pages ago - that since tops are no more perfect than I am (like it or not, yall dom/sadist/top types aren't gods any more than the other half of the coin are), abrogating my responcibility for my own well being to them is asking for trouble. 
 
Logically, it is MUCH less likely that I am going to mistake my OWN state of mental and physical condition than that someone Else is going to do so.  Can it happen?  Of course it can.  Anything that can be imagined Can happen.  Is it reasonable to EXPECT it to happen?  Personally, I don't think so, especially with this specific type of scenario that we're discussing - SM scening, and a bottom being less able to guage their reactions prior to overdose of endorphines and seratonin (subspace), than the person who is on the active/giving end of the scene.  I live in my body.  You live in your body.  That makes neither of us qualified as the BEST JUDGE of what is going on in The Other Person's Body.
 
If you (generic) are specifically looking ONLY at situations that are deliberately taken Past the point of endorphine and seratonin Overdose, (ie insistance on subspace being entered)  the circumstances that I'm talking about no longer pertain.  That is, however, a different matter altogether from Avoiding that over release of biochemicals.  I freely acknowledge that Many bottoms/subs/slaves/masos - while in the grip that biochemical OD state - are incapable of looking after themselves.  Perhaps it's even Most - I don't have access to any sort of Reliable statistical data to make a corrolation to corroborate "most."  That "many", however, seem to react much like other types of addicts to chemical stimulus of some sort - at least from the various things I've been told by a plethora of submissives, slaves, and masos who seek out "subspace."  It takes them increasing amounts of biochem released into the body to attain the state as they build up a tolerance, they "crave" their next fix in much the same manner as a heroine addict, and a primary objective appears to be achieving a state of disconnection from self/disconnection from immediate reality.  I abhor and avoid that sort of disconnective state, and the temporary mental incompitance for my own well being that apparantly goes with it.

_____________________________

Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 7:40:13 PM   
dreamscape


Posts: 51
Joined: 4/24/2006
Status: offline 		Never said anyone did.


I was simply commenting on something I have seen in a great many threads.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 8:36:30 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I do not know how you could equate enjoying subspace once in awhile with a heroine addiction and then state that submissives  are all just endorphin crazed junkies.  Endorphins are a part of human brain chemisrty  . . I think this is a generalization when you do not have anything to back it up but your own experience. Furthermore I would have to ask if you have some kind of expertise to be diagnosing people for addictions in the first place is. There are people who may fit that category, but that it is "most" submissives is really hard to determine.Personally I enjoy subspace and I do not "crave" it all the time, or even some of the time... its nice, but I wouldn't put it up there with an addiction...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to hizgeorgiapeach)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 9:59:27 PM   
Kreevillicious


Posts: 52
Joined: 7/4/2006
From: Life is Good
Status: offline 		Have you ever noticed that the people who cry, "Don't judge meeee" are often the most judgemental of all?

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 10:05:27 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I don't use them.

(in reply to Master96)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Safe word… - 7/21/2006 10:09:03 PM   
Caretakr


Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline 		This sort of incessant bs over stimilating nerve endings is why I have pretty much given up on sensation play-and gone over to responsible and mutually acountable control dynamics instead.

I'd rather be involved in much ado about SOMETHING.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 100
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