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Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 1:57:08 AM   
EnglishDomNW


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Status: offline 		(I hope this doesn't turn into a left-wing/right-wing slanging match)

I'm curious to hear views on what is acceptable freedom of expression.  I'm mainly thinking back to the Danish publication of the Mohammed cartoons but also Iran's retaliatory response where their national newspaper ran a contest to find "The best Holocaust cartoon" with gold coins for the first prize.  And Salman Rushdie's book "The Satanic Verses" which as far as I'm aware, still leaves him under "death on sight" by religious fanatics.

Given that so much violence and death arose from such events, do you feel freedom of expression should carry legally enforceable responsibility or that it should be absolute regardless of consequence?

< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 7/21/2006 1:58:59 AM >

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 3:28:16 AM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I think freedom of speach is paramount because once you start limiting it, where do you stop?

I think the cartoons were aimed to insult, they had no other function and they weren't even very witty. I think the editor of the magazine was irresponsible, this wasn't releasing news that a country didn't like, it was baiting pure and simple. I still don't believe the magazine should be censored but if I was a reader I would have refused to buy it again and actually tell the publisher why, which are for the reasons I just mentioned.

As for Iran's response it was predictable and just as asinine as the Danish publication and went after the wrong people. The last time I knew, very few Danes were Jews. I guess that is hatred for you.

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)
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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 4:25:10 AM   
Level


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Status: offline 		I agree with Meatcleaver.
 
Freedom of speech, to me, should only be limited when it comes to slander/libel, or the incitement to violence, such as "hey, let's kill that fucker". I know it could be said that the Danish cartoons "incited" plenty of violence, but that's not what I mean.

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 4:30:20 AM   
irishbynature


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

(I hope this doesn't turn into a left-wing/right-wing slanging match)

I'm curious to hear views on what is acceptable freedom of expression.  I'm mainly thinking back to the Danish publication of the Mohammed cartoons but also Iran's retaliatory response where their national newspaper ran a contest to find "The best Holocaust cartoon" with gold coins for the first prize.  And Salman Rushdie's book "The Satanic Verses" which as far as I'm aware, still leaves him under "death on sight" by religious fanatics.

Given that so much violence and death arose from such events, do you feel freedom of expression should carry legally enforceable responsibility or that it should be absolute regardless of consequence?


Good question English. I think the responsibility of Free Speech is also respecting other's expression, even if it annoys you, or even offends one personally. Some people have the idea that their "Free Speech" should be honored by everyone, etc....and when it's not respected....regardless of the speech---or taken to a radical reaction such as you posted...then it's as if one is saying, "I can express but you cannot, esp. if it offends me.. then I'll take some violent means to react...etc..."

Hope that made sense
Respectfully,
Irishbynature

< Message edited by irishbynature -- 7/21/2006 4:31:12 AM >

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 5:27:26 AM   
EnglishDomNW


Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline 		It's a really difficult choice because although i believe everyone has a right to say anything they like and suffer the consequences for it, something like the Danish cartoons meant that a lot of other people suffered instead.

I'm not sure what the answer is because I support the freedom to express the points those cartoons raised but the violence that followed wasn't only directed at the publishers - people died who weren't even responsible for the decision to print. 

I do think the most major point of all is that no matter how offended your religion may be, or you personally, if your God is more offended by a cartoon than he is by you taking someone's life, he doesn't deserve your worship in the first place.

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 5:42:20 AM   
SirKenin


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From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		With freedom comes responsibility.  Those that can not responsibly exercise their freedoms and not push the limits just because they can do not deserve to have any freedom at all.

Just remember, your rights end where the next person's rights begin.

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 5:53:42 AM   
Lilmissbossy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin
Just remember, your rights end where the next person's rights begin.


As far as i'm concerned, everyone's rights begin and end at the same place.

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 6:12:19 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Just remember, your rights end where the next person's rights begin.


Rights is a very vague term here. People have the right to insult and offend or there is no freedom of speach but equally they have to take responsibility for that right and have to deal with the consequences of exercising that right.

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 6:27:38 AM   
pantera


Posts: 210
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Status: offline 		Let's not forget that people don't have a right NOT to be offended.

Defending reedom sometimes means having to let people do things you don't like, you don't agree with and that offend you.  But to prevent them from doing so it is FAR worse for you.

Several examples:

* I don't do drugs (not anymore lol!), but I think people should be free to use them.

* I am pretty much an american-flag-waving Cuban...I LOVE this country, I would fight for it, and I know it is the best country in the world...but I don't think it should be ilegal to burn the flag- it would bother me a lot...but that person should be able to do it if that's what they feel.


The natural progress of things is for government to gain ground and
for liberty to yield.
   -- President Thomas Jefferson.    1743-1826





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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 6:48:21 AM   
IronBear


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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		I believe in self-censorship guided by common sence and basic manners.... 

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 6:58:45 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Freedom of speech is a concept.
With no limits of any kind it becomes unworkable. 
Total freedom of speech would include the right to say literally anything with impunity...perjury, slander, calling 911 constantly with false reports, revealing confidential information, inciting violence, bomb threats...all are communications by 'speech'.

So the question is, what speech do you limit? Offensive speech? Hate speech? Obscene speech? Unpopular speech? Minority speech? Obstructive speech? Abba?




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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 7:07:44 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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Status: offline 		You don't. Society works because it is consensual. There are punitive laws if you perjure in court but I would argue it is more social pressure and a sense of personal responsibilty and duty why most people try to tell the truth in court. But let's not get side tracked into thinking courts are about truth, they are not, they are about winning a debate. A good lawyer who knows his/her client is guilty has still a duty to defend them, even if they are defending the indefensible so one of their tactics is to alter the perception of the crime in the jury's mind.

Laws only work in democracies where there is a general consensus for a law, once the consensus for a law disappears, it is only a matter of time before the law has to be discarded.

The concept of free speach is still intact. Unpopular punitive laws against freedom of speach will only subvert free speach but not kill it.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/21/2006 7:09:39 AM >

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 7:11:14 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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Status: offline 		Actually I think I have just written a load of bollocks.

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 7:47:05 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Hey... that's my line!

Seriously, that's why it is a balancing act...if society were OK with false reports of fires, or screaming loudly during someone else's recital, then they wouldn't implement punitive recourse. 

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 9:27:45 AM   
Lilmissbossy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pantera

I LOVE this country, I would fight for it, and I know it is the best country in the world


You should travel more

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 4:22:11 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		EnglishDomNW,

Here is my two penneth into the equation:

Let me start by saying freedom of speech is tantamount to any civilisation. But, there is a but. When speech is intended to incite racial tension (as the cartoons were - The Jutland Post, Die Welt and Le Soir, the papers who initially printed the cartoons, are all Conservative rags with an anti-Muslim agenda) then that speech is dangerous and should not be allowed.

The mark of a truly civilised society is freedom of speech with limits. How can blatant disrespect of another culture/race be civilised and allowed to go unchecked?

For those who don't know the implied meaning of the cartoons - the cartoonist charted the life of Islam and implied that the natural conclusion of Islam is terrorism.

Ultimately, this sort of newspaper reporting is dangerous and similar to the Nazi depiction of Jews. The Nazis depicted the Jews as parasites and right-wing Europeans are now depicting Muslims as terrorists - the end statement is the same - both the Nazis and today's right-wing Europeans are saying the Jews and Muslims are not worthy of European status.

NorthernGent


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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 4:30:41 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

EnglishDomNW,

Here is my two penneth into the equation:

Let me start by saying freedom of speech is tantamount to any civilisation. But, there is a but. When speech is intended to incite racial tension (as the cartoons were - The Jutland Post, Die Welt and Le Soir, the papers who initially printed the cartoons, are all Conservative rags with an anti-Muslim agenda) then that speech is dangerous and should not be allowed.

The mark of a truly civilised society is freedom of speech with limits. How can blatant disrespect of another culture/race be civilised and allowed to go unchecked?

For those who don't know the implied meaning of the cartoons - the cartoonist charted the life of Islam and implied that the natural conclusion of Islam is terrorism.

Ultimately, this sort of newspaper reporting is dangerous and similar to the Nazi depiction of Jews. The Nazis depicted the Jews as parasites and right-wing Europeans are now depicting Muslims as terrorists - the end statement is the same - both the Nazis and today's right-wing Europeans are saying the Jews and Muslims are not worthy of European status.

NorthernGent




Then you're not advocating freedom of speech.
 
Several people here on CM post things offensive about America; if we went by what you said, they would not have the right to do so.
 
 

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 4:37:05 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Level,

You've missed my point completely. I am advocating freedom of speech with limits. For the reasons posted above, that is the mark of a truly civilised society.

What has the US got to do with this? Self-pity is extremely unattractive.

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 4:41:10 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Level,

You've missed my point completely. I am advocating freedom of speech with limits. For the reasons posted above, that is the mark of a truly civilised society.

What has the US got to do with this? Self-pity is extremely unattractive.


So you would only suggest these limits? Not legislate them?
 
And the US is an example that fits along the lines of what you said; it's hardly self-pity.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/21/2006 4:44:09 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Level,

Look, we're really not on the same wavelength. No point continuing this.

NorthernGent

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