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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 3:21:33 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Sometimes when police are called, someone is in direct immediate danger. Someone is hiding, injured, or so traumatized, the police have to enter on high alert.

Doesn't justify murder.

If they come in on high alert and something happens to confirm the danger it isn't murder even if it isn't a gun he is going for.
It may be misconduct but it is not murder.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 3:25:45 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD



I have heard, but have not confirmed that he had a record and thus had the firearm illegally, this is not a reason to shoot him, but if he had a violent past that would affect preceptions.




The 72 hour rule applies, but I heard somewhere that he was a gang member and a pedophile.

None of that is confirmed to the best of my knowledge, and once again we want the 72 hour rule to apply but the thread started out with proclimations that in both cases the cops are cold blooded killers. I, for one do not want it to become an accepted "fact" before one word suggesting that there is more to learn before we jump to conclucions.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 7/7/2016 3:27:27 PM >


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Aylee)
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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 3:33:37 PM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
The 72 hour rule applies, but I heard somewhere that he was a gang member and a pedophile.

How can you continue to invoke the 72 hour rule, then in the same sentence spread rumor?



Essentially, I am remarking on what I have seen/read and acknowledging that for 72 hours there are going to be a lot of mixed and wrong information. I am not saying the guy was positively a gang member and pedophile, but that is one of the reports.


Which is to say you are remarking on rumor, thereby spreading it further.

Was he engaging in gang activity or selling or displaying pedophilia in front of the store when the police arrived? Were they there for purpose to arrest him on either account when they approached him?

If not, then whatever he might have been accused or even convicted of previously is not germane to the issue of their murdering him. The police dept. themselves in fact said the officers had no knowledge of any prior record. How could they have? They didn't know his name until after they murdered him.




< Message edited by Edwird -- 7/7/2016 3:46:43 PM >

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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 3:43:28 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
The 72 hour rule applies, but I heard somewhere that he was a gang member and a pedophile.

How can you continue to invoke the 72 hour rule, then in the same sentence spread rumor?



Essentially, I am remarking on what I have seen/read and acknowledging that for 72 hours there are going to be a lot of mixed and wrong information. I am not saying the guy was positively a gang member and pedophile, but that is one of the reports.


Which is to say you are remarking on rumor, thereby spreading it further.

Was he engaging in gang activity or selling or displaying pedophilia in front of the store when the police arrived? Were they there for purpose to arrest him on either account when they approached him?

If not, then whatever he might have been accused or even convicted of previously is not germane to the issue of their murdering him. The police dept. themselves in fact said the officers had now knowledge of any prior record. How could they have? They didn't know his name until after they murdered him.

But in any case, you seem to be on board with police powers to shoot to kill when approaching anyone with prior arrest record even if the latter does not resist. They tazed him before the guy knew what was happening, so safe to say he didn't resist.

You didn't see what tape there was, he was resisting and someone yelled gun!
At that point a cop pulled his weapon and they told him to stop repeatedly before shots were fired. The person who filmed was not a cop and the film showed that the cops pulled the gun from the correct pocket first try.
Tazers are not a sure fire stop.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 3:52:18 PM   
Edwird


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Have you ever tried to keep perfectly still after being tazed twice? You've never seen a video of a person being tazed and how their body responds?

It was impossible for him to stop moving.

The original call was about a guy with a gun, but when they drag him to the ground one officer screams "He's got a gun!" like they were surprised?

Do they keep lowering the max IQ ceiling to be allowed into police academy these days?

The guy never touched his gun. The police pulled it out of his pocket after they killed him.





< Message edited by Edwird -- 7/7/2016 4:01:48 PM >

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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 4:15:31 PM   
Wayward5oul


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
The 72 hour rule applies, but I heard somewhere that he was a gang member and a pedophile.

How can you continue to invoke the 72 hour rule, then in the same sentence spread rumor?



Essentially, I am remarking on what I have seen/read and acknowledging that for 72 hours there are going to be a lot of mixed and wrong information. I am not saying the guy was positively a gang member and pedophile, but that is one of the reports.


Its a contradictory statement, as your remarks add fuel to the fires that encourage extreme reactions that the 72 hour rule is designed to avoid, or violate it entirely, depending on how a person defines it.

As the person who seems to be concerned enough about the thread that you repeatedly invoke the rule, I would think that you would special care not to violate or encourage violations.

Its like saying "Well, I don't like to gossip, but my sister's best friend's mother overheard her tell her stylist she needed her hair to look really good tonight because she was meeting someone special."

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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 4:19:19 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
The 72 hour rule applies, but I heard somewhere that he was a gang member and a pedophile.

How can you continue to invoke the 72 hour rule, then in the same sentence spread rumor?



Essentially, I am remarking on what I have seen/read and acknowledging that for 72 hours there are going to be a lot of mixed and wrong information. I am not saying the guy was positively a gang member and pedophile, but that is one of the reports.


Which is to say you are remarking on rumor, thereby spreading it further.

Was he engaging in gang activity or selling or displaying pedophilia in front of the store when the police arrived? Were they there for purpose to arrest him on either account when they approached him?

If not, then whatever he might have been accused or even convicted of previously is not germane to the issue of their murdering him. The police dept. themselves in fact said the officers had no knowledge of any prior record. How could they have? They didn't know his name until after they murdered him.




Interesting that you critisize Aylee for putting in information while stating that it is unconfirmed while you are proclaiming the cops guilty of murder, isn't that a case of the pot calling the silverware black?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 5:12:21 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Bama!

quote:

Did they taze him and tackle him in an attempt to avoid shooting him?
That is really the only explination.

Honestly, if you were a cop on a gun call would you get close enough to taze him? Whoa! Not me.

Tazing can be done from 6-7 yards away, and the only reason to use them is because they are showing resistance but there is still the chance to avoid lethal force. Trying to take them down without lethal force is one of the risks cops are expected to take to avoid shooting. As you know the first question usually asked is why didn't they just taze him. This incident does confirm my lack of faith in tazers, you have no idea how many people have told me that if you taze someone there is no way it will not stop them cold. Obviously you smarter than most of them.

Bama, from what I understand candidates in police Academies are taught from the git go to protect themselves. From the reports and the videos these bozos must have skipped classes at the Academy. I cannot imagine why they would even come out from behind their car until Sterling had thrown out his gun and was flat on his belly with his arms spread wide. Fucking idiots.

quote:

I have heard, but have not confirmed that he had a record and thus had the firearm illegally, this is not a reason to shoot him, but if he had a violent past that would affect preceptions.
This is almost always the initial follow up when a black man is killed . . . demonize or criminalize him. Most egregiously, there is nothing in the reports to lead us to believe they knew Sterling's history if he had one. The only perception they had, I suspect, was a frontier mentality.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 7/7/2016 5:18:53 PM >


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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 5:15:49 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cinnamongirl67

Sometimes when police are called, someone is in direct immediate danger. Someone is hiding, injured, or so traumatized, the police have to enter on high alert.

Anyone who finds themselves in such a situation better cooperate.
We take action. Follow the rules. Case closed.

Not that simple. These two cops were not on high alert. They did not have their guns out until they had wrestled Sterling to the ground. That's not high alert; that's walking stupid.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 7/7/2016 5:44:25 PM >


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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 5:54:14 PM   
kdsub


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Vince here in St. Louis the majority of police shootings that result in death involve African American officers...but most protests come when a white officer is involved and the offender shot is black... What does that say.

I have always been pro police and I am quite involved with my local department. I have spent many hours talking with individual officers and I believe I have a good measure of their integrity.

Right now they are very worried about their jobs and future. I believe in the next few years we will have a shortage of qualified police officers. Most enter their career thinking they can make a difference in their towns and can protect their friends and families. They expected support and respect but instead encounter anger and distrust. They want to come home to their families just like you and I but feel they are expected to face danger with one hand tied behind their backs. Many have told me they will not, if they can help it, put themselves in a position where they may have to use deadly force to enforce the law. They believe they will not get the support from the community.

They are frustrated...Citizens demand they enforce the law... yet when they do they are accused of using excess force. When a suspect refuses to comply they have no choice but to use as much force as is required ... the suspect will determine how much force in his actions not the police.

These cases are almost all alike... the police confront a suspect that instead of complying decides to resist... this often can esculate into deadly force... it is totally innecessar

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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 6:00:03 PM   
Greta75


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I would like to know IF there are ever white people killings by cops ever?

And does it ever make the news?

But these cops seem way too high handed with their usage of guns.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 7/7/2016 6:01:08 PM >

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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 6:01:05 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: closetoyou

Vincent it seems to me as though your Police are on drugs, not trained and so hyped up, out of control.
glad I am not there.

Welcome to the Boards :0)

In his comments today the Governor of Minnesota said that if Castile had been white he would still be alive.

The President remarked this evening that police would have an easier job if they had the trust of the communities they served; the men and women in Blue would feel more confident everyday that they would return home to their families at the end of their shifts. Obama suggested it would be better if the police acted as guardians of the people than as warriors.

The U.S. Justice Department offers guidance, financing, and courses to advance Community Policing Techniques.

SOURCE

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 6:03:17 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
In the Castile incident where he told them he was carrying, whatever happened to "stick your arms out the window; show me your hands."

In my country, as long as the person had a weapon, it's legit for the cop to shoot that person. But then again, all weapons are illegal in my country.

So the thing is that, THIS is the complication when cops are dealing with people with guns. And if someone tell a cop that they got a gun, isn't that threatening the cops?

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 7/7/2016 6:04:44 PM >

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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 6:07:23 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Vince here in St. Louis the majority of police shootings that result in death involve African American officers...but most protests come when a white officer is involved and the offender shot is black... What does that say.

I have always been pro police and I am quite involved with my local department. I have spent many hours talking with individual officers and I believe I have a good measure of their integrity.

Right now they are very worried about their jobs and future. I believe in the next few years we will have a shortage of qualified police officers. Most enter their career thinking they can make a difference in their towns and can protect their friends and families. They expected support and respect but instead encounter anger and distrust. They want to come home to their families just like you and I but feel they are expected to face danger with one hand tied behind their backs. Many have told me they will not, if they can help it, put themselves in a position where they may have to use deadly force to enforce the law. They believe they will not get the support from the community.

They are frustrated...Citizens demand they enforce the law... yet when they do they are accused of using excess force. When a suspect refuses to comply they have no choice but to use as much force as is required ... the suspect will determine how much force in his actions not the police.

These cases are almost all alike... the police confront a suspect that instead of complying decides to resist... this often can esculate into deadly force... it is totally innecessar

Butch, there is no easy solution to the historic problem of mistrust between people of color and civil authority, but the two cases we saw today, imo, were just absolutely lousy police technique. I understand why veteran cops are wary and concerned. Look above re: community policing. Maybe that is the way to go.

Vincent

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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 6:12:05 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
In the Castile incident where he told them he was carrying, whatever happened to "stick your arms out the window; show me your hands."

In my country, as long as the person had a weapon, it's legit for the cop to shoot that person. But then again, all weapons are illegal in my country.

So the thing is that, THIS is the complication when cops are dealing with people with guns. And if someone tell a cop that they got a gun, isn't that threatening the cops?

Yes, it is threatening. All the more reason the cops should not attack Sterling bodily. That is just plain fucking stupid imo.

Castile volunteered he had a gun and was licensed. That is not a threat. However, the cops should have demanded to see his hands.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 6:23:38 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

If they come in on high alert and something happens to confirm the danger it isn't murder even if it isn't a gun he is going for.
It may be misconduct but it is not murder.

And THAT is the whole problem right there. There is no need to give them a license to kill.

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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 6:29:01 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Vince here in St. Louis the majority of police shootings that result in death involve African American officers...but most protests come when a white officer is involved and the offender shot is black... What does that say.

It says that, fairly or unfairly, a white cop's killing an African American echos though some of the ugliest and most brutal chapters in American history.

ETA: The protests probably also stem from observing what seems to be a multi-city pattern that lacks a corresponding record of killing white suspects in the same circumstances.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 7/7/2016 6:32:46 PM >


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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 6:33:21 PM   
Termyn8or


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"Bama, from what I understand candidates in police Academies are taught from the git go to protect themselves. "

Yeah, because the insurance has to pay off otherwise.

OK that might have been off the wall, but it is all a money game. %hey kill because the last thing they want is the city sued. Remember I have known cops.

Problem is they go too far. You catch some N____ raping a ten year old in the act, I fully support blowing their head off. You catch people doing certain things I fully support blowing their head off. You come climbing into a window in this house I WILL blow your head off. But you probsably would never do such a thing.

But they do go too far and usually with minorities, and in doing so they endanger Whites, AND THEY WANT TO because we are the ones who work and support their budget. so when the minorities attack us, most Whites are all for new taxes to hire more cops, or get them better weapons. That is the game dude.

Let me reiterate a thing I have said many times so you understand.

If you get paid to solve a problem, the last thing you want to do is solve that problem. As long as that problem exists, and especially if it gts worse you can petition them for more budget.

If you solve the problem you are out of a job. If they got totally rid of crime, instead of making like a hundred grand a year, cops would be collecting $400 a week on unemployment. And they know it. And so does the city government that supports them, as well as themselves off this scam.

Caught in the act - KILL. I agree, but that is not what is happening. One Black guy was in HIS OWN CAR searching the floor for something, I don't know, lighter, smoke(s) or whatever and the cops rolled up. They told him don't move. And then they told him to put his hands where they could see them and shot him because he moved. Now hoe the fuck do you put your hands where they tell you without moving ?

And they shot this old guy in bed. I mean infirm. And they needed 41 rounds to put down a crazoid with a knife. A KNIFE.

No, this shit has to stop. I know people have changed but cops have changed as well, and they are making enemies. As I said about when the time comes, they will respond to a loud music call and get picked off from the windows. And in some areas there are plenty of abandoned house from which to do it. They better clean up their act.

Or we will. And they do not seem to realize that. Or maybe they do and that is why they are so trigger happy, well not really but scared. You know, they got a good fucking job with good fucking benefits, about the best anyone without any real skills can get. They got a mortgage and an olady and kids. They REALLY do not want to die.

But what they do not realize is that we Whites CAN join with the Blacks and start taking them out. If fifty percent of the nuisance calls resulted in an officer's death, who the fuck would take the job ? Even at twice what they make now. Feds have bulletproof vests on under their monkeysuits, regular cops do not have that. Plus it is very uncomfortable, especially in the summer. I got a cousin who gave up law enforcement to take a crack at real estate. Never really asked him why but I got some idea. We are a family of fairly honest people except Dad and me in the past. If DNA has anything to do with it, he probably got tired of running the money game for the gov. He ain't stupid.

Some of the scary shit LEOs have done to people, when they hit the net I actually downloaded them. I could make a compilation of them and even host them myself on Dropbox, which I have found IS fast enough for video playback. I got shit back from ten years.

And another thing to remember is perspective. There are how many cop murders ? And this is out of how many encounters ? Like guns, there are plenty of shootings I agree, but out of how many gun owners ? And lately there was a fatality in a Tesla with the self driving feature running, but that is out of 130 million miles of automated driving.

Like Mary Mary quite contrary. When they are good they are good. When they are bad they are very very bad because of their privilege. When they abuse it, they actually endanger other cops because people are going to start picking them off from windows n shit. And when they target and fuck with minorities remember they are endangering Whites. We are seen as the supreme race even though we are not. When some Black guy says "A White cop killed my brother so I am going to kill you" you will see how important it is to put a stop to this shit. And it WILL happen. In fact there are a bunch of Whites who are ready to kill White cops. They busted a team of them a few years ago, had a torture chamber and everything. I have no idea how they got busted without actually doing it even once, I suspect a rat in the house or someone with loose lips.

How many others are out there already, laying in wait ?

One day they will find out. I warn every LEO who may be in here, DO NOT LET MISCONDUCT SLIDE. There are not enough of you. If you get up to even one third of the locals against you, you will be dead. Most urban areas it is what, one cop for every like 200 people ? No matter what your weapon you ain't good enough to fight 200 people. So watch your fellows in the force, and do not let them get away with shit. I know you might get treated like Chris Dorner but to not do it endangers each and every one of you every day. When that phone rings and you go on a call, any time of the day you might never come back.

Stop now. Get to know the people in the community. Go back to the old way. Walk a beat even and send the drug dealers back to the basement. And be nice. Always be nice until it is time not to be nice.

When it comes time not to bee nice make sure you are on camera and of course, shoot to kill. When you catch them in the act, well that's what we do after Castle Law came around. And of course stand your ground. No remorse, no pity. And when you are in court with the thug's Mother and she is saying how her boy was so good, you tell her just like I would "Next time you drop a litter, teach them how to stay away from other people's shit".

I haven't heard of many A students robbing liquor stores, have you ?

But incubators and sires always got this attitude "My boy could never do any wrong". And that is what got them into prison, or the grave. In my family, when we did wrong when we were young we got punished.

I will admit it did not work completely, I did wrong. Ran a fencing operation, wheel man for a job, a few other things. But I never hurt anyone doing it and I never would and I regret all of it.

I am not saying it is right, but I can see why some of these cops are paranoid. And what they see does fuck with their head. I have drank with them. One Sergent I knew lost 11 partners in shootouts. they kept putting him in the really bad part of town and he was a crack shot. His partners obviously weren't. He got early retirement because of psyche whatever you call it. When you partner with another cop, you got each other's back. But in a gunfight, which is somehow what they seemed to call him for, nobody could do a gunfight like him. Eventually he got sick of it, couldn't take it anymore.

Eleven fucking partners, can you even imagine that ? A co-worker and brother in arms. Dead right at your feet. Alright you killed the guy who killed him but he is still dead.

Yup, Stormin' Norman was one of the good ones. He is very old now. In the old days we had some good times though. He was a good guy. But it eventually came to "Can't you find me a partner who can fucking shoot ?". If they were going to send them into those bad bad situations, why didn't they find another marksman ?

Ever see the movie Harlem Nights ? There are three people shooting a Quick, two of them with full automatics. Quick jumps up and kills all three of them with a handgun, three shots. He said "Fuck all this shit" or something like that. Then he drove home. bottom line, though that is fiction, the fact is some people can shoot and others can't. Some people can drive and others can't. Some people can all kinds of shit and others can't.

I used to like the show Sledge Hammer. I know it was fiction ad the guy was a nut, but he was really accurate when it came to shooting. He could shoot into a crowd and hit his target and nobody else. I can about kill someone from across the street, but if there is a bunch of people all congregated I would not do it. I am good but not good enough to bet on that. But then, the occasion at which I would have to kill someone across the street would be very rare. They would have had to hurt my family or something to have that coming. If I catch them robbing me they die on the property.

T^T

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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 7:04:07 PM   
kdsub


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Vince I got interrupted during my last post... Hard to make since of it. I do want to add two points. The first is officers want people to know their job is to enforce the law... not change social inequality. This leads to my second point... If there is more crime commited by African Americans then in doing their jobs blacks will come under closer scrutiny in suspicious circumstances. For instance if a car with three black men is cruising a white neighborhood at 3 in the morning they may be pulled over. It is necessary police work as long as black crime is disproportionate.

This is of course insulting to law abiding African Americans... But it is not the police officers duty to change the reasons for this disparity in crime.

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(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: COPS OVERREACTING OR JUSTIFIED KILLINGS - 7/7/2016 7:14:14 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: captive4ever

I think our racist police simply like killing blacks, they seem to do it pretty well everywhere.

Oh yes, so the victims were armed and neither had drawn their weapon. What does that say about the effectiveness of carrying a firearm for self-defense reasons?

I don't think it was over-reaction by the police, I have a suspicion it is policy. If they're black, shoot first, to kill, and ask questions later, maybe.

I saw that video of the girlfriend who had to sit next to her boyfriend and watch him get shot to death for having a broken tail-light, it was heartbreaking, but all too familiar these days.

I woud love someone to show me anywhere that having a broken tail-light is a captial offense.


Driving with a broken tail light, normally is not a capital offense.
This young man was guilty of DWB {driving while black}.
As horrific as this is, do you realize how many black/and other races also, have been murdered for years, and there were no
video recorders to document the crimes?
This is hardly new, what's "new", is many are being caught, while years ago it was not videotaped.


< Message edited by Marini -- 7/7/2016 7:15:24 PM >


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to captive4ever)
Profile   Post #: 40
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