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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/3/2016 11:38:19 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

It does raise some profound questions. If biological notions of race are redundant concepts, then do biologically based explanations of human behaviour hold in any domain?

You and I had this exchange quite a long time ago. The subject then was human nature. I championed biological determinism for sociopathic behaviors because I could not then understand how Jeffrey Dahmer did the awful things he did. I still do not. So, I continue to think that behaviors out in the narrow ends of the bell curve are not explainable by socialization. I argued then that aggression in boys was channeled and often squelched by the "civilizing institutions of society."

In that regard it is interesting to compare female sociopaths to male sociopaths as the linked article does.

There are not as many female serial killers as there are men and sexual aggression is not so interesting to them, but they do show childhood behaviors similar to their male counterparts and according to this article they have high levels of testosterone. I have not validated that last claim.

Some female sociopaths demonstrate antisocial behavior as children and as adolescents. Lying, stealing, truancy, cruelty to animals and siblings, drug abuse, early sexual activity. Of course, there may be frequent run-ins with the law. Their parents are very often distraught because there is so little they can do. As adults, these female sociopaths may end up abusing alcohol and drugs and end up in and out of prison.

I am interested in your response.
behaviour


It seems to me that to assert biology as the determinant of behaviours "not explainable by socialization" is to employ the same logic (or illogic) that proponents of Intelligent Design employ. We do not have an explanation for phenomenon X therefore it must be biologically determined/created by an Intelligent Designer. There's a huge leap of faith in there somewhere. If we don't have an explanation how can we be certain that the answer is one of two options - biological or social determinism? In my experience there are always more than 2 options available. If we don't have an explanation then all we can conclude is that we don't know.

However that said, we do have a pretty good idea of how to induce psychopathology. Brutalise enough infants or children, subject them to sustained violence, deprive them of love and a supportive environment and you will have created psychopathic adults in many instances. We also know that many serial killers were themselves the products of brutal dysfunctional homes and disturbed parents. So I am unconvinced that it is accurate to claim that these behaviours are inexplicable except by biological determinism.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/3/2016 11:43:29 PM >

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/4/2016 10:25:25 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

If we don't have an explanation how can we be certain that the answer is one of two options - biological or social determinism? In my experience there are always more than 2 options available. If we don't have an explanation then all we can conclude is that we don't know.

Okay then, point taken. Let me modify my thinking and shift to a more conservative position: it is possible that some cases of psychopathic behavior may have genetic factors at their core.

quote:

We also know that many serial killers were themselves the products of brutal dysfunctional homes and disturbed parents.

Yes, but not all who had such experiences became dysfunctional adults. They do not come to public attention. But, some serial killers had nurturing childhoods. We do know about these. It would be interesting to me to take that subset and ask them (I know, I know I can't) if they had dark fantasies and when the fantasies began.

Maybe you would give me input on another seemingly puzzling disconnect: it has been claimed that sexual orientation is not a choice. I am not suggesting any moral or medical equivalency here, however, how is it that sexual orientation may have genetic etiology but not serial killing? Or, do I misunderstand the origins of sexual orientation?

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/4/2016 11:14:24 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Humanity has three distinct races; negroid, mongoloid, and caucasoid. (Anthropology is what you want to google if you want huge amounts of detail.)


Yeah, no, not anymore apparently.

A couple years ago I took a course in Anthropology in an American college, and was told that there are no different races in human being, because we all have the same amount of chromosomes, and therefor belong to the same species, which somehow meant racial differences didn't exist.

When I tried to argue in class that races isn't akin to species, but to breed, and that the races are more like the different breeds in dogs or horses (with humans often being 'mutts' because of interbreeding) I was told harshly that I was wrong, and race doesn't exist at all. After class I was taking aside and told that if I continued to attempt to present such arguments in front of the rest of the class, I would be receiving a failing grade for the entire semester, regardless of how well my grades were on the exams or assigned work...

So nope... there aren't any distinct races...

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/4/2016 12:27:14 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Yeah and all species of dogs are the same under the skin, right ?

This liberal ass bullshit has actually held back medical technology. We are different, we need different foods and environments, to deny that is the epitome of ignorance.

Do doctors test Whites for sickle cell anemia ? Answer me that.
Do doctors test Muslims for Tay Sach's ? Answer me that.

Of course with the ACA aka Obamacare they probably have to now. And I have to have coverage for maternity. I will tell you this, if I even get pregnant y'all on this website will be about the third to know. But it is good to know that Women are now covered for erectile dysfunction. (I think)

T^T

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/5/2016 1:54:59 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Do doctors test Whites for sickle cell anemia ? Answer me that.
Do doctors test Muslims for Tay Sach's ? Answer me that.



Hey, I'm not disagreeing with ya. I'm just pointing out that if you bring that up in Anthropology class in this country, they'll fail you for it.

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/5/2016 2:27:52 PM   
bounty44


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Humanity has three distinct races; negroid, mongoloid, and caucasoid. (Anthropology is what you want to google if you want huge amounts of detail.)


Yeah, no, not anymore apparently.

A couple years ago I took a course in Anthropology in an American college, and was told that there are no different races in human being, because we all have the same amount of chromosomes, and therefor belong to the same species, which somehow meant racial differences didn't exist.

When I tried to argue in class that races isn't akin to species, but to breed, and that the races are more like the different breeds in dogs or horses (with humans often being 'mutts' because of interbreeding) I was told harshly that I was wrong, and race doesn't exist at all. After class I was taking aside and told that if I continued to attempt to present such arguments in front of the rest of the class, I would be receiving a failing grade for the entire semester, regardless of how well my grades were on the exams or assigned work...

So nope... there aren't any distinct races...


I once read something that created an illustrative picture in my head about this. if you took all the people in the world and stood them side by side, one after the other, by skin color, you absolutely could not tell the difference between the person standing on either of any one particular person. differences wouldn't appear until way down the line, which might cause one to ask, at what point in the line, given the indiscernibility from one person to the next, does one cross over unto a different "race?"

I suspect the same process could be repeated for different shades of skin color and maybe even eye, nose and lip shape.


< Message edited by bounty44 -- 11/5/2016 2:28:12 PM >

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/5/2016 3:02:54 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Humanity has three distinct races; negroid, mongoloid, and caucasoid. (Anthropology is what you want to google if you want huge amounts of detail.)


Yeah, no, not anymore apparently.

A couple years ago I took a course in Anthropology in an American college, and was told that there are no different races in human being, because we all have the same amount of chromosomes, and therefor belong to the same species, which somehow meant racial differences didn't exist.

When I tried to argue in class that races isn't akin to species, but to breed, and that the races are more like the different breeds in dogs or horses (with humans often being 'mutts' because of interbreeding) I was told harshly that I was wrong, and race doesn't exist at all. After class I was taking aside and told that if I continued to attempt to present such arguments in front of the rest of the class, I would be receiving a failing grade for the entire semester, regardless of how well my grades were on the exams or assigned work...

So nope... there aren't any distinct races...


I once read something that created an illustrative picture in my head about this. if you took all the people in the world and stood them side by side, one after the other, by skin color, you absolutely could not tell the difference between the person standing on either of any one particular person. differences wouldn't appear until way down the line, which might cause one to ask, at what point in the line, given the indiscernibility from one person to the next, does one cross over unto a different "race?"

I suspect the same process could be repeated for different shades of skin color and maybe even eye, nose and lip shape.


A good point. Maybe the races are not so very distinct. As I said earlier: kinda silly, impossible to fit 6.5 billion people into 3 boxes. In fact, VERY silly.

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/5/2016 5:03:08 PM   
MercTech


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Status: offline 		The three races of classical taxonomy have distinct markers but the difference is so slight as to make no difference in the ability to procreate. The differences are so very slight to the point race is a non issue. The genetic difference is even minuscule when comparing humans to other primates.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tiny-genetic-differences-between-humans-and-other-primates-pervade-the-genome/

What makes huge differences is the ethnicity. The cultural training of the community where a human is raised has much more to do with behavior than whether a person has a congenital suntan or is able to digest milk.

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/6/2016 1:57:58 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Let me modify my thinking and shift to a more conservative position: it is possible that some cases of psychopathic behavior may have genetic factors at their core.

quote:

We also know that many serial killers were themselves the products of brutal dysfunctional homes and disturbed parents.

Yes, but not all who had such experiences became dysfunctional adults.


Yes good point. When we rear children we have a good idea of the final outcome. But it's a human system and therefore chaotic, and will produce intended results randomly. We know that if we subject enough children to a brutal regime of concerted violence, sustained abuse, love deprivation and suchlike, it will produce adult psychopaths in many instances but not all. We have no reliable method of predicting individual outcomes. Equally an idlyllic childhood with kind understanding parents will most times produce adults who are kind empathetic and agreeable. But every now and then a psychopath will be produced despite the absence of any of the usual predictors.

quote:

how is it that sexual orientation may have genetic etiology but not serial killing? Or, do I misunderstand the origins of sexual orientation?

You may be conflating sexual drives - which clearly have a biological element in their expression - and sexual orientation. I am unaware of any compelling evidence to show that sexual orientations have a genetic origin or are genetically determined. But we do know that certain orientations can only originate in a child's environment eg a high heel shoe fetish.



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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/6/2016 9:59:21 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Equally an idlyllic childhood with kind understanding parents will most times produce adults who are kind empathetic and agreeable. But every now and then a psychopath will be produced despite the absence of any of the usual predictors.

That is troubling to me and focuses my attention. There is the interesting case of the serial killer David Berkowitz from New York. Aka: the "son of sam" killer. Something about an hallucinogen dog named Sam who prodded him to murder. Don't hold me to the details of the dog's role. But David was adopted by a nurturing family. He presented symptoms after the adopted mother died. That either gives us a hint about the genotype from the birth mother or tells us the power of nurturing love. (Or maybe the birth father) I realize I cannot project from isolated cases but they make me wonder.

quote:

You may be conflating sexual drives - which clearly have a biological element in their expression - and sexual orientation. I am unaware of any compelling evidence to show that sexual orientations have a genetic origin or are genetically determined. But we do know that certain orientations can only originate in a child's environment eg a high heel shoe fetish.

I much prefer a high-heeled sandal on a classic female foot. But, no, I am not conflating sexual drives with sexual orientation. I am referring specifically to orientation or same sex preference vs. hetero and the variations in between. Politically and theologically the gay nation claims their preference is not a choice but inborn, as I understand it. How is it that the genetic flag flies for Gays but not for psychopaths (again, no equivalency intended)? Was it not said that gay male orientation resulted from distant mothers and weak fathers? Or something like that?

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/6/2016 10:32:57 AM   
Termyn8or


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Do doctors test Whites for sickle cell anemia ? Answer me that.
Do doctors test Muslims for Tay Sach's ? Answer me that.



Hey, I'm not disagreeing with ya. I'm just pointing out that if you bring that up in Anthropology class in this country, they'll fail you for it.


Understood. Shit like this is one of the reasons I have my doubts about global warming.

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt it is happening and I don't doubt that we contribute to it because everything we do makes more heat. Even an air conditioner does not cool, it simply moves the heat outside, and of course the power plant is burning something. But seriously, have my doubts about the scope of it when they start this sky is falling shit, and I have even more serious doubts about whether we can really do anything about it. Typical fucking ultrasickening liberal bullshit, which you will find in many colleges.

They think it would be a good plan to tax the shit out of carbon emissions to encourage all of us to have our cards melted down to make solar panels (which is impossible) to charge our $70,000 and up electric cars that will not have the range of a normal car for at least ten years.

They bitch about republicans and this 6,000 year old Earth shit but they don't know shit from shinola either. They have no clue about how anything works. We need better politicians. Get a few with engineering degrees at least.

And don't worry about US colleges, they will be failing. Real engineers do not want their graduates and companies are throwing money at these 80 year old ones, and they are moving out of California.

I remember when my friend's son was in school, we told him that even if you know they're wrong just give them the answer they want. I remember one discussion with the kid where he says "The people who wrote that are scholars..." and whatever ad I said "Anyone can write anything, question everything". He graduated from UWM some type of cum laude, which is a tougher school than Harvard or Yale by orders of magnitude. Also, he is the only one I ever heard of applying to ten colleges and getting accepted to all of them. He is doing very well.

Butt your account of this experience pretty much clinches it that colleges have a severe liberal bias. And their science is flawed, they can tell your ethnicity a million years from now from fossilised remains but we are all the same under the skin ? Gimme a fucking break.

I got alot more if y'all got the time. Jews, Muslims and pork. Muslims, well they are generally religious and consider pork unclean. However Jews are logical people. Now, my maternal Grandmother developed almost an allergy to pork. She used to say "I like pork but it doesn't like me". Now my Mother seems to be developing that condition but not so severely. Could there be a genetic thing about Hebrews that made them allergic to pork ?

And then circumcision, an argument that has been done to death at "the other place". Could they have a genetic predisposition to a condition called phimosis ? I think it possible. I think the elders and wise Men of the time told people a few things just like doctors today might tell you to not eat salt or some shit. And Muslims not eating pork, people forget that they are Semites. It could just be one of their traits, like some people being lactose intolerant, and I DO believe there is an ethic correlation there.

And let's not even get into the different diseases now, I think we did that.

But I really do believe that the bullshit ultrasickening liberal shit has actually held science back. And it didn't start yesterday either. Maybe we are experiencing that old saying "Those who can't do, teach, those who can't teach, teach gym".

T^T

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/6/2016 11:22:50 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		"That is troubling to me and focuses my attention. There is the interesting case of the serial killer David Berkowitz from New York. Aka: the "son of sam" killer. Something about an hallucinogen dog named Sam who prodded him to murder. Don't hold me to the details of the dog's role. But David was adopted by a nurturing family. He presented symptoms after the adopted mother died. That either gives us a hint about the genotype from the birth mother or tells us the power of nurturing love. (Or maybe the birth father) I realize I cannot project from isolated cases but they make me wonder. "

When you bring up criminal proclivities you open a huge can of worms you might not have wanted to open. I believe they are gaining insight, albeit slowly, into race/ethnicity and criminality. They ignore certain facts, POSSIBLY for politically correct reasons.

Your brain chemistry will affect your mood, and even eating/drinking/smoking habits. Also those habit can affect your brain chemistry. It is like a symbiotic relationship and while they are studying it to a point, they leave ethnicity out of it.

There has been talk of reading DNA and predicting which ones will be criminals. Of course that would be politically incorrect so I am not sure how far that research has gone, I guess not far under a democrat regime. But there was talk of it years ago ad putting some kids in special schools to try to stem their proclivities. Haven't heard of it actually happening though.

But really, it is known hands down that some people have abnormal brain chemistry. They can be psychotic or sociopathic or whatever because of it. You are what you eat but different people absorb essential nutrients at different rates, and that is at least partly related to ethnicity.

The political correctness is bad enough, but the fact is we will never have complete information. You want a list of what someone ate from the day they were born ? Not happening. And even those Romanian kids who grow up to cause trouble, who the hell knows what happened to them before you got them ? And who knows about the nutrition of the birth Mother. They could have been born deficient in one thing or another and it adversely affected their mental development. How the hell would we know ?

Unfortunately the only way for us to get really comprehensive information on shit like this is for everyone to just give up the idea of any type of privacy. I don't really like that idea and I bet many agree. What, send in a complete list of everything you ate the last month to some government agency ? Of course that would include whatever you smoke as well as any drugs, legal or otherwise. Like if someone is a crackhead, if they lose all their teeth at 20 that might just have had something to do with it. But then hard drug use does bring on poor diet in many. Even pot for some people, they might get the munchies but they are not eating right.

And now, about a year ago I read that there is a pot brain receptor, in some people apparently the chemical in pot joins perfectly with a chemical in their brain. Something like 10 % of pot smokers get really addicted, and those might well be those people.

But something like that is liable to be genetic as well. What other explanation is there ? They drank too much milk as a baby or some shit ?

I have serious doubts that becoming a serial killer is totally genetic. It might be caused by some genetic defect that was not addressed but from what I hear, if you see your kid torturing animals you best do something about it. That is one of the major telltale sign of impending problems of this nature.

We need to get shed of all this political correctness bullshit and start really addressing these problems. If not, we will have more problems.

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/6/2016 11:24:15 AM   
WhoreMods


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Status: offline 		So you're basically saying that people become serial killers because they didn't eat their greens when they were kids?

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/6/2016 11:57:19 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Well there's one of the grossest oversimplifications I've read in a while. (I do not mean gross as in "YUK" I ea gross as in big)

Knew a guy who went nuts in like his 40s. Had been normal. He was a doctor of psychology sans dissertation. He ended up teaching psychology, had the Phd but could not put MD after his name. (can psychologists anyway, or just psychiatrists ? not sure at the moment).

Then he went nuts and put a down payment on like 22 DeLoreans, emptying his checking account and breaking the family. The bitch about it was that he did have some money and could have afforded ONE. Then he took to bouncing some checks and eventually got arrested.

This guy was something else, since he knew psychology he knew what to tell them to get out of the ooney bin, he was in a couple of those. One time he took his gun with him. Seriously, he had checked himself in and had a briefcase with a loaded gun. The had no idea. They found out as he was leaving after being released, looking to see he hadn't stolen any towels or whatever. Later, he forgot hid briefcase at some government building, by mistake, but it brought the bomb squad.

Took off back to Utah ad put his family through hell. I mean mopping a carpeted floor and shit like this. Eventually he did something and got thrown in prison and his Wife was named trustee of his affairs, and he had a healthy pension coming from PERS, which you CAN collect while incarcerated, unlike social security.

They found later that he had a chemical imbalance in the brain and treated it with some kind of enzyme or who knows what and then he was normal. Medical technology had advanced to that point.

However he had to go back to Utah and do some time and during that time his Wife died. She was the trustee/executor and got his retirement checks and the one son had power of attorney because she literally could not sign anymore.

When she died those brainiacs decided to hide her body in a storage locker, which went on for eight months. They made the news actually and the media said they did it for her social security checks, but not only were they chump change compared to what the olman was getting, but they got caught with ALL the checks uncashed. So that is how reliable the media is.

The olman got out of prison in Utah, got back to Ohio and the power of attorney was lifted, he was getting treated and no longer non compos mentis and it all was alright.

What the kids did does seem to point to the possibility that this is hereditary. If your Mother dies, are you going to roll her up in a carpet and stick her body in a "U store it you lock it" ?

Stupit and nuts people are all over the place. Don't ask where I find them, just look around. But they actually did find a chemical imbalance i his brain that was not detectable years before, or they didn't know what to look for. And who can say it was not diet ? I remember when younger he was svelte and tough. Almost killed a guy in a fight. Then his weight went up to like 300 pounds, and though a bit on the tall side, he was not tall enough to weigh that much.

What changed ?

T^T

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/6/2016 12:00:50 PM   
WhoreMods


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Status: offline 		That isn't actually a rebuttal of my simplification of your simplistic argument, you'll find.

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/6/2016 12:47:20 PM   
Termyn8or


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

That isn't actually a rebuttal of my simplification of your simplistic argument, you'll find.


Right, I will not argue against that.

But it is pertinent to the subject I believe, so I posted it.

Some might go so far as to say certain ethnicities are more prone to fall for religion, but you really can't say for sure.

And I sometimes do make simplistic arguments so that more people might understand.

T^T

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/6/2016 12:53:20 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

When you bring up criminal proclivities you open a huge can of worms you might not have wanted to open. I believe they are gaining insight, albeit slowly, into race/ethnicity and criminality. They ignore certain facts, POSSIBLY for politically correct reasons.

I will ask you to kindly avoid using my words as a spring board for your racists innuendos. I was saying nothing about Race and crime.

quote:

There has been talk of reading DNA and predicting which ones will be criminals. Of course that would be politically incorrect so I am not sure how far that research has gone, I guess not far under a democrat regime. But there was talk of it years ago ad putting some kids in special schools to try to stem their proclivities. Haven't heard of it actually happening though.

Only in a drug haze would that information have presented to you. You really should shop around for another dealer cuz that shit you're smoking is toxic.




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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/7/2016 2:10:23 AM   
Termyn8or


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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/7/2016 3:02:39 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I am referring specifically to orientation or same sex preference vs. hetero and the variations in between. Politically and theologically the gay nation claims their preference is not a choice but inborn, as I understand it. How is it that the genetic flag flies for Gays but not for psychopaths (again, no equivalency intended)? Was it not said that gay male orientation resulted from distant mothers and weak fathers? Or something like that?

What do people mean by "inborn" in this context? Do they mean it's literally a genetic inheritance (how could they possibly know?) or do they mean that the trajectory of their desire was established long before they realised it, long before they were even vaguely conscious of it and that they experience it as 'natural'? The notion of the 'gay gene' is hotly disputed in and out of queer circles. It's a convenient way to package a message for broad consumption but I don't think anyone takes it seriously as an academic or scientific proposition, any more than any one takes 'mother-blame' theories seriously anymore (outside of the most conservative and reactionary psychiatric circles).

It does seem to me that you will find the best explanations for the questions troubling you in contemporary post-modernist and post-feminist re-interpretations of Freud & Oedipus, and in contemporary understandings of the notions of subjectivity, desire and sexuality following Foucault, how they are produced within us while simultaneously producing us. That's where I found them at the end of a long interesting and often tortuous search.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/7/2016 3:05:05 AM >

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/7/2016 1:45:43 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I never suspected you were that liberal.

T^T

What are you saying? Liberals are tolerant, conservatives are not?

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 40
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