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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/11/2016 6:31:55 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Perception is not a basket of social constructs, it's an interpretation of the evidence of our senses based through the filter of our internal beliefs.

Good grief! What ignorance.

Where do our internal beliefs come from?
Are they Divinely inspired? No.
Do we invent them? No.
Do they come from rational thought. No. More likely rational thought is filtered by our beliefs, our biases, our misconceptions.
Our beliefs come from our social encounters whether directly or through the books and magazines we read, through the films and through the telly. Our beliefs are socially acquired. Our perceptions inform our beliefs. Hence, social constructs. If humans were so rational they would not do the stupid, self-destructive shit that they do.

I think your beliefs are stored in your asshole.
Have a look next time you stick your head up there.

And what are your experiences? What are the encounters that formed your beliefs about African Americans? Did you have African American classmates in Australia? Did you work with African Americans in New Zealand or Australia? Have you even seen any African Americans in New Hampshire? Have you ever visited African American homes? Have you ever even driven through an inner city African American neighborhood. I dare say the answer to these questions is "No." Your beliefs about African Americans are nothing more than second hand media encounters. Your beliefs then are biased. The more so by your unrelenting arrogance.

You have no expertise in this topic. You have no standing in this debate.

Let's discuss something about which you have expertise. Something you have truly experienced. Tell us about the different kangaroos you've fucked.
There is something you have had first hand, or first dick experience with. We will listen, or read. Give it a go, dumb-fuck.

But on this topic about African Americans you are an ignorant sod.

So, again . . . fuck-a-roo or fuck-off.

You have nothing of value to contribute here.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 11/11/2016 6:39:39 AM >


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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/11/2016 7:18:59 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Perception is not a basket of social constructs, it's an interpretation of the evidence of our senses based through the filter of our internal beliefs.

Good grief! What ignorance.
I agree, but you're still flapping your fucking gums.

quote:


Where do our internal beliefs come from?
They're based upon interpretation of our previous experiences. Our initial beliefs are formed by our parents who inculcate us with their values. As we grow and learn we develop our own mechanisms for interpreting the world around us. The initial seed of values planted by our parents snowballs as we progressively build our belief structures based upon interpreting new stimuli with our current belief structures. Much of this involves personal choice - we choose what to believe and thus our beliefs tend toward either rationality or emotional resonance.

In other words, some people are thinkers and other people are feelers. It's no coincidence that the vast majority of the liberal thought police are a bunch of feelers.

quote:

Are they Divinely inspired? No.
Do we invent them? No.
Do they come from rational thought. No. More likely rational thought is filtered by our beliefs, our biases, our misconceptions.
Our beliefs come from our social encounters whether directly or through the books and magazines we read, through the films and through the telly. Our beliefs are socially acquired. Our perceptions inform our beliefs. Hence, social constructs. If humans were so rational they would not do the stupid, self-destructive shit that they do.
No, social constructs are cultural presuppositions. While culture provides information which can influence the adoption of beliefs, this is merely one source amongst many.

quote:


I think your beliefs are stored in your asshole.
Have a look next time you stick your head up there.
Your mistake is to use the phrase, "I think". You don't think and your emotional way of assembling beliefs is why you're a racist.

quote:


And what are your experiences? What are the encounters that formed your beliefs about African Americans? Did you have African American classmates in Australia? Did you work with African Americans in New Zealand or Australia? Have you even seen any African Americans in New Hampshire? Have you ever visited African American homes? Have you ever even driven through an inner city African American neighborhood. I dare say the answer to these questions is "No." Your beliefs about African Americans are nothing more than second hand media encounters. Your beliefs then are biased. The more so by your unrelenting arrogance.
I grew up in a multicultural society and I've had friends of many races, including African American. I don't have any racial biases in that regard and your suggestion that I do is pure stupidity on your part.

quote:


You have no expertise in this topic. You have no standing in this debate.
I have a competent mind and an unbiased opinion. You don't even have those.

quote:


Let's discuss something about which you have expertise. Something you have truly experienced. Tell us about the different kangaroos you've fucked.
There is something you have had first hand, or first dick experience with. We will listen, or read. Give it a go, dumb-fuck.

But on this topic about African Americans you are an ignorant sod.

So, again . . . fuck-a-roo or fuck-off.

You have nothing of value to contribute here.
Now that's irony, right there. But then again, why would I bother about the ill-conceived rantings of a racist? I simply expose you for what you are and rational individuals can make up their own minds.


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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/12/2016 9:04:06 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Much of this involves personal choice - we choose what to believe and thus our beliefs tend toward either rationality or emotional resonance.

In other words, some people are thinkers and other people are feelers.

You wish that you could separate humans into thinkers and feelers. That would feed your own self-inflated but delusional notion that you are a supremely rational thinker while others are inferior “feelers.” It is a laughably incorrect model of cognition.

The human mind is not a binary machine. Emotions and thoughts are integrated within the processes of the brain. There are rich networks of nerve bundles from the amygdala and the hippocampus to the cerebral cortex. Steroidal hormones are secreted by fear and stress. Oxytocin is secreted by affection. These chemicals impact cognition. Our cognition and perception are often informed by our emotions and our emotions are tempered by our perceptions. There may be times when a healthy individual acts “blindly” from his emotions but those incidents are brief and while thoughts may be distorted they are still sources of agency.

Our parents may inculcate us with initial values but it is well known that teenagers are more greatly influenced by their peers at a time when the executive functions of the brain are not yet fully developed, so soundness of choices is highly questionable. The point to be underlined is that our choices are influenced by immediate encounters and by previous choices.

Furthermore, there is no accounting for the experiential sources of affinities or dislikes. Either you like horror movies, for example, or you don’t. Adults are persuaded by lies and propaganda and run in social packs with “like-minded” people. Free choice may be somewhat of an illusion. Your neat narrative of cognitive development may be just wishful thinking. It may make you feel better about yourself but it isn’t necessarily true.

quote:

I grew up in a multicultural society and I've had friends of many races, including African American. I don't have any racial biases in that regard and your suggestion that I do is pure stupidity on your part.

Here are some hallmarks of racism:

Denigrating the culture of a people without ever having any real life contact with that culture, relying instead on ideas and biases drawn from propaganda, misconceptions, and lies.

Repeating the old conservative chestnut that blacks suffer from a “victimization mentality” ~ a lie perpetrated by bigots who cannot see that young black men and women have high self-esteem, are proud and eager to mark their place in the world, and are as ambitious and eager to gain social and financial success as their peers in other groups.

Making the eugenic claim that the crime problems of urban and ring suburb African American’s would be solved if they learned to use condoms, again applying an outdated stereotype, when in fact the fertility rate of African Americans has fallen faster than any other group and is nearly the same as that of other groups. Fertility rate is well documented to be a function of prosperity and education; it has nothing to do with race.

By these criteria, you are indeed racist. Your own comments have sorted you.







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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/13/2016 10:34:43 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


The human mind is not a binary machine. Emotions and thoughts are integrated within the processes of the brain. There are rich networks of nerve bundles from the amygdala and the hippocampus to the cerebral cortex. Steroidal hormones are secreted by fear and stress. Oxytocin is secreted by affection. These chemicals impact cognition. Our cognition and perception are often informed by our emotions and our emotions are tempered by our perceptions. There may be times when a healthy individual acts “blindly” from his emotions but those incidents are brief and while thoughts may be distorted they are still sources of agency.

Our parents may inculcate us with initial values but it is well known that teenagers are more greatly influenced by their peers at a time when the executive functions of the brain are not yet fully developed, so soundness of choices is highly questionable. The point to be underlined is that our choices are influenced by immediate encounters and by previous choices.

Furthermore, there is no accounting for the experiential sources of affinities or dislikes. Either you like horror movies, for example, or you don’t. Adults are persuaded by lies and propaganda and run in social packs with “like-minded” people. Free choice may be somewhat of an illusion. Your neat narrative of cognitive development may be just wishful thinking. It may make you feel better about yourself but it isn’t necessarily true.


It seems to me that the key concept you are looking for here, indeed, dancing around here, is discourse. You are describing discourse and its effects without naming it.

Post-structuralist thinking is that our understandings of the Self are to one extent or another discursively constructed. It is notable that the role of language was omitted by all parties above* but language is a key component of how we think, both generally and about ourselves. Language shapes thought as it influences, structures and therefore moulds thoughts, ideas and perceptions (all of which are rendered into discourse sooner or later).

For a good introduction to discourse analysis please check out the reader I suggested previously. I believe it is very helpful for tackling and understanding this complex area. Indeed, from where I sit, discourse analysis is a essential tool with which to develop a coherent and thorough analysis and understanding of this area.

* It could be argued that language and its social role was referred to indirectly. I'd rather not split this hair if that's OK with you.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/13/2016 10:37:03 PM >


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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/14/2016 7:25:48 AM   
Awareness


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Meh, vincent, I just don't fucking care. You're a liar, a racist and an apologist for African American violence. I've no interest in debating philosophy of Mind with you, you're way too stupid to understand it.



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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/14/2016 7:56:44 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Language shapes thought as it influences, structures and therefore moulds thoughts, ideas and perceptions (all of which are rendered into discourse sooner or later).

Thank you for your input, Tweakabelle. You raise an essential point. Of course language influences thought and the development of self. As an extreme example to support the point, a member of an "untouched" tribe in the bush (if any still exist) would clearly not be able to make the choices of someone whose Self developed in Western democratic society infused with digital technology and all the other technologies developed over the centuries, especially since about 1800 or so.

Language is informed by time and place and circumstances, is it not? The question remains: to what extent are there cross cultural similarities of language and to what degree does that provide for commonality of Self?

I read the Foucault Reader following your suggestion of it earlier, and was quite exasperated by his opaqueness. Perhaps I will give it another go. Thank you again.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 11/14/2016 8:48:22 AM >


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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/14/2016 8:03:55 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

Meh, vincent, I just don't fucking care. You're a liar, a racist and an apologist for African American violence. I've no interest in debating philosophy of Mind with you, you're way too stupid to understand it.

A'ness, clearly you are interested or else you would not have responded. Your remarks above are just another way of admitting that you have nothing of substance to contribute. Lack of wisdom shielded around by insults.

Repeating your lies about me will not make them true.

You can read this and run away like the coward you are or come back and make a case for your slander.

Meow...


< Message edited by vincentML -- 11/14/2016 8:05:15 AM >


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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/15/2016 1:49:48 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


I read the Foucault Reader following your suggestion of it earlier, and was quite exasperated by his opaqueness. Perhaps I will give it another go. Thank you again.

I know exactly what you mean. I found that understanding discourse analysis was the key to Foucault. Once I grasped his idea of discourse, as the way the power of an idea is expressed and is mappable in language, everything else fell into place relatively easily.

So yes, he is heavy going but well worth it in the end. It offers a way of directly translating power into knowledge and vice versa. It will give you another framework for understanding human behaviour that works and that can't be a bad thing.

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/15/2016 9:18:34 AM   
Awareness


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No, you just lack the faculties necessary to engage in debate. You simply repeat the mantra that "black is white" and are unable to argue effectively. You lie, you dissemble and you're a racist. Consequently, you're a waste of time.

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/15/2016 9:47:48 AM   
MercTech


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The concept that "Perception is Reality" is a fallacy originating out of the sophistry of liberal arts. When talking opinions and philosophy, it can be useful. If talking about making a film or an art project photo shoot, perceptions is verily the reality you want to project.
But when discussing things that can actually be measured. When discussing items that have a verifiable documentation in history. Reals trump feels every time.

Shared perception can be a road to delusion.

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/15/2016 9:56:35 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

The concept that "Perception is Reality" is a fallacy originating out of the sophistry of liberal arts. When talking opinions and philosophy, it can be useful. If talking about making a film or an art project photo shoot, perceptions is verily the reality you want to project.
But when discussing things that can actually be measured. When discussing items that have a verifiable documentation in history. Reals trump feels every time.

Shared perception can be a road to delusion.
Well given the liberal arts majors tend to deal in self-constructed nonsense with no empirical evidence, it's hardly surprising they'd avoid dealing with objective reality. This probably explains why their degrees are good for intellectual masturbation, whereas STEM degrees get you a decent paying job.


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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/15/2016 11:02:23 AM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

It does raise some profound questions. If biological notions of race are redundant concepts, then do biologically based explanations of human behaviour hold in any domain?

You and I had this exchange quite a long time ago. The subject then was human nature. I championed biological determinism for sociopathic behaviors because I could not then understand how Jeffrey Dahmer did the awful things he did. I still do not. So, I continue to think that behaviors out in the narrow ends of the bell curve are not explainable by socialization. I argued then that aggression in boys was channeled and often squelched by the "civilizing institutions of society."

In that regard it is interesting to compare female sociopaths to male sociopaths as the linked article does.

There are not as many female serial killers as there are men and sexual aggression is not so interesting to them, but they do show childhood behaviors similar to their male counterparts and according to this article they have high levels of testosterone. I have not validated that last claim.

Some female sociopaths demonstrate antisocial behavior as children and as adolescents. Lying, stealing, truancy, cruelty to animals and siblings, drug abuse, early sexual activity. Of course, there may be frequent run-ins with the law. Their parents are very often distraught because there is so little they can do. As adults, these female sociopaths may end up abusing alcohol and drugs and end up in and out of prison.

I am interested in your response.
behaviour


It seems to me that to assert biology as the determinant of behaviours "not explainable by socialization" is to employ the same logic (or illogic) that proponents of Intelligent Design employ. We do not have an explanation for phenomenon X therefore it must be biologically determined/created by an Intelligent Designer. There's a huge leap of faith in there somewhere. If we don't have an explanation how can we be certain that the answer is one of two options - biological or social determinism? In my experience there are always more than 2 options available. If we don't have an explanation then all we can conclude is that we don't know.

However that said, we do have a pretty good idea of how to induce psychopathology. Brutalise enough infants or children, subject them to sustained violence, deprive them of love and a supportive environment and you will have created psychopathic adults in many instances. We also know that many serial killers were themselves the products of brutal dysfunctional homes and disturbed parents. So I am unconvinced that it is accurate to claim that these behaviours are inexplicable except by biological determinism.

Poor understanding of science, philosophy, and religion combined with obvious feminist propaganda does not make a convincing argument. Just for instance, all records of all religions have communication between man and ultimate other recorded, across all cultures, well before science was a concept. So the big leap of faith is not as you've described but rather in the faith that science will ultimately explain all of that outside any system that an ultimate other may have established.

It's really poor thinking.

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/15/2016 11:15:44 AM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Are there races in other species?

Good question. I have to say come to California and you might find it so. Here, the liberal tree hungers will define a salamander or frog that lives across a highway from other salamanders and frogs as a separate species so that they can say a the species on one side of the highway will be endangered if a project is allowed. Since the liberal sciences allow such differentiation of species, I'm pretty sure they'll use race in whatever way forwards their cause. So probably one day there are different races of frogs and the next day not so much.

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/15/2016 1:17:29 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It seems to me that to assert biology as the determinant of behaviours "not explainable by socialization" is to employ the same logic (or illogic) that proponents of Intelligent Design employ. We do not have an explanation for phenomenon X therefore it must be biologically determined/created by an Intelligent Designer. There's a huge leap of faith in there somewhere. If we don't have an explanation how can we be certain that the answer is one of two options - biological or social determinism? In my experience there are always more than 2 options available. If we don't have an explanation then all we can conclude is that we don't know.

However that said, we do have a pretty good idea of how to induce psychopathology. Brutalise enough infants or children, subject them to sustained violence, deprive them of love and a supportive environment and you will have created psychopathic adults in many instances. We also know that many serial killers were themselves the products of brutal dysfunctional homes and disturbed parents. So I am unconvinced that it is accurate to claim that these behaviours are inexplicable except by biological determinism.

Poor understanding of science, philosophy, and religion combined with obvious feminist propaganda does not make a convincing argument. Just for instance, all records of all religions have communication between man and ultimate other recorded, across all cultures, well before science was a concept. So the big leap of faith is not as you've described but rather in the faith that science will ultimately explain all of that outside any system that an ultimate other may have established.

It's really poor thinking.

Where's the "Poor understanding of science, philosophy, and religion combined with obvious feminist propaganda" in my post? There is none. My post consists of a rational critique of the appalling 'logic' employed to concoct the Intelligent Designer Fallacy and a statement identifying some of the known origins of psychopathology which reflects the current consensus in the field. Nothing that could be described as "obvious feminist propaganda", indeed nothing radical or controversial at all.

Your claim that I have "faith that science will ultimately explain all of that outside any system that an ultimate other may have established" is invalid couldn't be further from the truth. I have made no such claim nor do I believe in any such claim. (My personal view, FWIW, is more or less opposite to your claim. Indeed my understanding is that your claim is a logical impossibility.) You are imagining things, making them up .... which tells us something about your psychology.

It appears your response garbled and confused as it is, is an attempt to present a scientifically viable defence of the Intelligent Design Fallacy. FYI no such "scientifically viable defence" is available to you or any one else - it doesn't exist. If you choose to believe in such obvious and palpable nonsense that's your choice.

Trying to dress that personal choice up as a scientifically valid approach puts you in A'ness' class when it comes to the philosophy of science - ill-informed ignorant and claiming a mastery of a subject with which you obviously have little or no familiarity. In this instance, the "poor thinking" is all yours, entirely yours and yours alone.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/15/2016 1:25:46 PM >


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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/15/2016 1:22:26 PM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It seems to me that to assert biology as the determinant of behaviours "not explainable by socialization" is to employ the same logic (or illogic) that proponents of Intelligent Design employ. We do not have an explanation for phenomenon X therefore it must be biologically determined/created by an Intelligent Designer. There's a huge leap of faith in there somewhere. If we don't have an explanation how can we be certain that the answer is one of two options - biological or social determinism? In my experience there are always more than 2 options available. If we don't have an explanation then all we can conclude is that we don't know.

However that said, we do have a pretty good idea of how to induce psychopathology. Brutalise enough infants or children, subject them to sustained violence, deprive them of love and a supportive environment and you will have created psychopathic adults in many instances. We also know that many serial killers were themselves the products of brutal dysfunctional homes and disturbed parents. So I am unconvinced that it is accurate to claim that these behaviours are inexplicable except by biological determinism.

Poor understanding of science, philosophy, and religion combined with obvious feminist propaganda does not make a convincing argument. Just for instance, all records of all religions have communication between man and ultimate other recorded, across all cultures, well before science was a concept. So the big leap of faith is not as you've described but rather in the faith that science will ultimately explain all of that outside any system that an ultimate other may have established.

It's really poor thinking.

Where's the "Poor understanding of science, philosophy, and religion combined with obvious feminist propaganda" in my post? There is none. My post consists of a rational critique of the appalling 'logic' employed to concoct the Intelligent Designer Fallacy and a statement identifying some of the known origins of psychopathology which reflects the current consensus in the field. Nothing that could be described as "obvious feminist propaganda", indeed nothing radical or controversial at all. Your claim that I have "faith that science will ultimately explain all of that outside any system that an ultimate other may have established" is invalid. I have made no such claim nor do I believe in any such claim. You are imagining things, making them up .... which tells us something about your psychology.

It appears your response garbled and confused as it is, is an attempt to present a scientifically viable defence of the Intelligent Design Fallacy. FYI no such "scientifically viable defence" is available to you or any one else - it doesn't exist. If you choose to believe in such obvious and palpable nonsense that's your choice.

Trying to dress that personal choice up as a scientifically valid approach puts you in A'ness' class when it comes to the philosophy of science - ill-informed ignorant and claiming a mastery of a subject with which you obviously have little or no familiarity. In this instance, the "poor thinking" is all yours, entirely yours and yours alone.

I'm sorry....not enough knowledge of science, philosophy and religion to know what the poor thinking is then. Do ya better?

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/15/2016 1:35:54 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

Nnanji

Poor understanding of science, philosophy, and religion combined with obvious feminist propaganda does not make a convincing argument. Just for instance, all records of all religions have communication between man and ultimate other recorded, across all cultures, well before science was a concept. So the big leap of faith is not as you've described but rather in the faith that science will ultimately explain all of that outside any system that an ultimate other may have established.

It's really poor thinking.

Where's the "Poor understanding of science, philosophy, and religion combined with obvious feminist propaganda" in my post? There is none. My post consists of a rational critique of the appalling 'logic' employed to concoct the Intelligent Designer Fallacy and a statement identifying some of the known origins of psychopathology which reflects the current consensus in the field. Nothing that could be described as "obvious feminist propaganda", indeed nothing radical or controversial at all. Your claim that I have "faith that science will ultimately explain all of that outside any system that an ultimate other may have established" is invalid. I have made no such claim nor do I believe in any such claim. You are imagining things, making them up .... which tells us something about your psychology.

It appears your response garbled and confused as it is, is an attempt to present a scientifically viable defence of the Intelligent Design Fallacy. FYI no such "scientifically viable defence" is available to you or any one else - it doesn't exist. If you choose to believe in such obvious and palpable nonsense that's your choice.

Trying to dress that personal choice up as a scientifically valid approach puts you in A'ness' class when it comes to the philosophy of science - ill-informed ignorant and claiming a mastery of a subject with which you obviously have little or no familiarity. In this instance, the "poor thinking" is all yours, entirely yours and yours alone.

I'm sorry....not enough knowledge of science, philosophy and religion to know what the poor thinking is then. Do ya better?

The ignorance and poor thinking is all yours moron. I reiterate:
"Your claim that I have "faith that science will ultimately explain all of that outside any system that an ultimate other may have established" is invalid couldn't be further from the truth. I have made no such claim nor do I believe in any such claim. (My personal view, FWIW, is more or less opposite to your claim. Indeed my understanding is that your claim is a logical impossibility.) You are imagining things, making them up .... which tells us something about your psychology. "

Alleging "poor thinking" or abusing those of us who know better than you about these matters doesn't help your case at all. You are imagining things that don't exist - mirroring perfectly the moronic Intelligent Design Fallacy/Idiocy you are trying to defend.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/15/2016 1:36:43 PM >


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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/15/2016 2:00:44 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

the liberal sciences


What they hell are *they*? That's a new phrase to me. What are they, and how are they to be distinguished from other sciences? What are those other sciences called - conservative sciences, illiberal sciences, Republican sciences?

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RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/15/2016 2:28:09 PM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

Nnanji

Poor understanding of science, philosophy, and religion combined with obvious feminist propaganda does not make a convincing argument. Just for instance, all records of all religions have communication between man and ultimate other recorded, across all cultures, well before science was a concept. So the big leap of faith is not as you've described but rather in the faith that science will ultimately explain all of that outside any system that an ultimate other may have established.

It's really poor thinking.

Where's the "Poor understanding of science, philosophy, and religion combined with obvious feminist propaganda" in my post? There is none. My post consists of a rational critique of the appalling 'logic' employed to concoct the Intelligent Designer Fallacy and a statement identifying some of the known origins of psychopathology which reflects the current consensus in the field. Nothing that could be described as "obvious feminist propaganda", indeed nothing radical or controversial at all. Your claim that I have "faith that science will ultimately explain all of that outside any system that an ultimate other may have established" is invalid. I have made no such claim nor do I believe in any such claim. You are imagining things, making them up .... which tells us something about your psychology.

It appears your response garbled and confused as it is, is an attempt to present a scientifically viable defence of the Intelligent Design Fallacy. FYI no such "scientifically viable defence" is available to you or any one else - it doesn't exist. If you choose to believe in such obvious and palpable nonsense that's your choice.

Trying to dress that personal choice up as a scientifically valid approach puts you in A'ness' class when it comes to the philosophy of science - ill-informed ignorant and claiming a mastery of a subject with which you obviously have little or no familiarity. In this instance, the "poor thinking" is all yours, entirely yours and yours alone.

I'm sorry....not enough knowledge of science, philosophy and religion to know what the poor thinking is then. Do ya better?

The ignorance and poor thinking is all yours moron. I reiterate:
"Your claim that I have "faith that science will ultimately explain all of that outside any system that an ultimate other may have established" is invalid couldn't be further from the truth. I have made no such claim nor do I believe in any such claim. (My personal view, FWIW, is more or less opposite to your claim. Indeed my understanding is that your claim is a logical impossibility.) You are imagining things, making them up .... which tells us something about your psychology. "

Alleging "poor thinking" or abusing those of us who know better than you about these matters doesn't help your case at all. You are imagining things that don't exist - mirroring perfectly the moronic Intelligent Design Fallacy/Idiocy you are trying to defend.

Now a little tempest in a teapot. My my. I never claimed you had faith in anything. You're making that up in your head. I commented on your statement. I am not abusing anyone who knows better than me. It seems it's your nature to cry abuse however. So, there we see that feminist propaganda again.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/15/2016 2:30:51 PM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

the liberal sciences


What they hell are *they*? That's a new phrase to me. What are they, and how are they to be distinguished from other sciences? What are those other sciences called - conservative sciences, illiberal sciences, Republican sciences?

I'm sorry Peon, I see your point. Rather say, the way liberals practice environmental science in California. I actually noted that might be ambiguous when I wrote it and didn't write it more clearly. So we agree on your point.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... - 11/15/2016 3:27:24 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Post-structuralist thinking is...

Your incessant reliance on references to "post-structuralism," an evidence-free invention of leftists, critical theorists and psychoanalysts, demonstrates nothing so much as your inability to distinguish between ideology and reality, one might even fairly say between gobbledygook and reality.

Post-Structuralism

Writers whose work is often characterised as post-structuralist include Jacques Derrida, Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze, Judith Butler, Jacques Lacan, Jean Baudrillard, and Julia Kristeva

Taking them in the order given above:

Jacques Derrida

his work has been regarded by other analytic philosophers, such as John Searle and Willard Van Orman Quine, as pseudophilosophy or sophistry . . . On Derrida's scholarship and writing style, Noam Chomsky wrote "I found the scholarship appalling, based on pathetic misreading; and the argument, such as it was, failed to come close to the kinds of standards I've been familiar with since virtually childhood" . . . Paul R. Gross and Norman Levitt also criticized his work for misusing scientific terms and concepts in Higher Superstition: The Academic Left and Its Quarrels With Science (1994).

Michael Foucaultt

In February, Foucault gave a speech denouncing police provocation to protesters at the Latin Quarter of the Mutualité. Such actions marked Foucault's embrace of the ultra-left, undoubtedly influenced by Defert, who had gained a job at Vincennes' sociology department and who had become a Maoist. Most of the courses at Foucault's philosophy department were Marxist-Leninist oriented . . . While the right-wing press was heavily critical of this new institution, new Minister of Education Olivier Guichard was angered by its ideological bent and the lack of exams, with students being awarded degrees in a haphazard manner. He refused national accreditation of the department's degrees

Gilles Deleuze

Prior to his death, Deleuze had announced his intention to write a book entitled La Grandeur de Marx (The Greatness of Marx) . . . In the 1960s, Deleuze's portrayal of Nietzsche as a metaphysician of difference rather than a reactionary mystic contributed greatly to the plausibility and popularity of "left-wing Nietzscheanism" as an intellectual stance . . . In the 1970s, the Anti-Oedipus, written in a style by turns vulgar and esoteric, offering a sweeping analysis of the family, language, capitalism, and history via eclectic borrowings from Freud, Marx, Nietzsche, and dozens of other writers, was received as a theoretical embodiment of the anarchic spirit of May 1968 . . . In Fashionable Nonsense (1997), physicists Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont accuse Deleuze of abusing mathematical and scientific terms, particularly by sliding between accepted technical meanings and his own idiosyncratic use of those terms in his works.

Judith Butler

Since 1993, she has taught at the University of California, Berkeley, where she is now Maxine Elliot Professor in the Department of Comparative Literature and the Program of Critical Theory.
    In sociology and political philosophy, the term "critical theory" (or "social critical theory") describes the neo-Marxist philosophy of the Frankfurt School, which was developed in Germany in the 1930s. The Frankfurt theorist Max Horkheimer described a theory as critical insofar as it seeks "to liberate human beings from the circumstances that enslave them." Frankfurt theorists drew on the critical methods of Karl Marx and Sigmund Freud. ~Source
In 1998, Denis Dutton's journal Philosophy and Literature awarded Butler first prize in its fourth annual "Bad Writing Competition," which set out to "celebrate bad writing from the most stylistically lamentable passages found in scholarly books and articles."


Jacques Lacan

For some, "the impenetrability of Lacan's prose... [is] too often regarded as profundity precisely because it cannot be understood" . . . In Fashionable Nonsense (1997), Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont criticize Lacan's use of terms from mathematical fields such as topology, accusing him of "superficial erudition" and of abusing scientific concepts that he does not understand, accusing him producing statements that are not even wrong.

Other critics have dismissed Lacan's work wholesale. François Roustang called it an "incoherent system of pseudo-scientific gibberish", and quoted linguist Noam Chomsky's opinion that Lacan was an "amusing and perfectly self-conscious charlatan". The former Lacanian analyst, Dylan Evans, eventually dismissed Lacanianism as lacking a sound scientific basis and as harming rather than helping patients, and has criticized Lacan's followers for treating his writings as "holy writ". Richard Webster has decried what he sees as Lacan's obscurity, arrogance, and the resultant "Cult of Lacan". Others have been more forceful still, describing him as "The Shrink from Hell" and listing the many associates -- from lovers and family to colleagues, patients, and editors -- left damaged in his wake.


See also:
    Stavrakakis, Yannis, The Lacanian Left, Albany: State University of New York Press, 2007
    Jon Simons (ed.), Contemporary Critical Theorists: From Lacan to Said, Edinburgh University Press, 2004
Jean Baudrillard

a French sociologist, philosopher, cultural theorist, political commentator, and photographer. His work is frequently associated with postmodernism and specifically post-structuralism...

Denis Dutton, founder of Philosophy & Literature's "Bad Writing Contest"-- which listed examples of the kind of willfully obscurantist prose for which Baudrillard was frequently criticised -- had the following to say:
    Some writers in their manner and stance intentionally provoke challenge and criticism from their readers. Others just invite you to think. Baudrillard's hyperprose demands only that you grunt wide-eyed or bewildered assent. He yearns to have intellectual influence, but must fend off any serious analysis of his own writing, remaining free to leap from one bombastic assertion to the next, no matter how brazen. Your place is simply to buy his books, adopt his jargon, and drop his name wherever possible.
Mark Poster, Baudrillard's editor, said:
    Baudrillard's writing up to the mid-1980s is open to several criticisms. He fails to define key terms, such as the code; his writing style is hyperbolic and declarative, often lacking sustained, systematic analysis when it is appropriate; he totalizes his insights, refusing to qualify or delimit his claims. He writes about particular experiences, television images, as if nothing else in society mattered, extrapolating a bleak view of the world from that limited base. He ignores contradictory evidence such as the many benefits afforded by the new media.
Julia Kristeva

Kristeva became influential in international critical analysis, cultural studies and feminism . . .She trained in psychoanalysis, and earned her degree in 1979. In some ways, her work can be seen as trying to adapt a psychoanalytic approach to the poststructuralist criticism. For example, her view of the subject, and its construction, shares similarities with Sigmund Freud and Lacan. However, Kristeva rejects any understanding of the subject in a structuralist sense; instead, she favors a subject always "in process" or "on trial". In this way, she contributes to the poststructuralist critique of essentialized structures, whilst preserving the teachings of psychoanalysis.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/15/2016 3:33:03 PM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
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