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RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/23/2017 8:14:36 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

It is immoral, for many reasons

You have to take the money away from someone to do it, that's stealing. Government is notoriously corrupt and inefficient, so it is wasteful. Politicians use taxpayer money to buy votes with such programs, so motivations are very often impure

For the same reasons you can't provide people with everything you need as I suggested above, it is cruel to get people hooked and dependent on government handouts, especially when government may not always be there. Our current debt is unsustainable and something's got to give



money isnt "moral"




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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/23/2017 8:30:06 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Everyone should have the right to healthcare.

I think that's precisely backwards. In my view, it's not a matter of anyone having a "right" to healthcare but rather a case of us having an obligation to care for our infirm.

K.


(in reply to tamaka)
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RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/23/2017 8:38:07 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Everyone should have the right to healthcare.

I think that's precisely backwards. In my view, it's not a matter of anyone having a "right" to healthcare but rather a case of us having an obligation to care for our infirm.

K.



I think that is a moral view, not a rights view
not that I disagree with it,

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/23/2017 8:46:38 PM   
NoirMetal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Everyone should have the right to healthcare.

I think that's precisely backwards. In my view, it's not a matter of anyone having a "right" to healthcare but rather a case of us having an obligation to care for our infirm.

K.



I think that is a moral view, not a rights view
not that I disagree with it,

Medicare was set up for the elderly, indigent and poor to use. The national health plan needs to provide reasonable access to the rest. "obamacare light" with bribes to the wealthy is not gonna cut it. That's why this shit bill was rejected.

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/23/2017 9:03:08 PM   
tamaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Everyone should have the right to healthcare.

I think that's precisely backwards. In my view, it's not a matter of anyone having a "right" to healthcare but rather a case of us having an obligation to care for our infirm.

K.




Yes. l agree with that. But access to healthcare also helps prevent people from becoming infirm. A pregnant woman is not infirm but needs care. There is a bigger issue than just caring for the sick.



< Message edited by tamaka -- 3/23/2017 9:08:35 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/23/2017 9:13:05 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirMetal


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Everyone should have the right to healthcare.

I think that's precisely backwards. In my view, it's not a matter of anyone having a "right" to healthcare but rather a case of us having an obligation to care for our infirm.

K.



I think that is a moral view, not a rights view
not that I disagree with it,

Medicare was set up for the elderly, indigent and poor to use. The national health plan needs to provide reasonable access to the rest. "obamacare light" with bribes to the wealthy is not gonna cut it. That's why this shit bill was rejected.

Cutting medicare by 880 billion should have been the rejection.
how many people will lose access to insurance, let alone healthcare?

What is reasonable access, to insurance or healthcare?
Obamacare" lite", it isnt, its Scotus(republican) vicious.



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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/23/2017 9:15:09 PM   
NoirMetal


Posts: 508
Joined: 3/20/2017
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirMetal


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Everyone should have the right to healthcare.

I think that's precisely backwards. In my view, it's not a matter of anyone having a "right" to healthcare but rather a case of us having an obligation to care for our infirm.

K.



I think that is a moral view, not a rights view
not that I disagree with it,

Medicare was set up for the elderly, indigent and poor to use. The national health plan needs to provide reasonable access to the rest. "obamacare light" with bribes to the wealthy is not gonna cut it. That's why this shit bill was rejected.

Cutting medicare by 880 billion should have been the rejection.
how many people will lose access to insurance, let alone healthcare?

What is reasonable access, to insurance or healthcare?
Obamacare" lite", it isnt, its Scotus(republican) vicious.



They know the elderly population would fuck them back in the next election. Then it would be right back to gridlock. Even politicians have to face hard realities.

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/23/2017 9:20:40 PM   
tamaka


Posts: 5079
Status: offline 		Isn't there a difference between medicare and medicaid?

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/23/2017 9:22:00 PM   
Kirata


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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Everyone should have the right to healthcare.

I think that's precisely backwards. In my view, it's not a matter of anyone having a "right" to healthcare but rather a case of us having an obligation to care for our infirm.

I think that is a moral view, not a rights view
not that I disagree with it,

Well okay, I take your point. But if you want to frame it in terms of morality, then the morality that I am invoking here is biological, not philosophical. We are a species that has evolved a genetic endowment that inclines us to offer succor and protection to the weak and infirm, from which we may conclude that groups of humans that lacked it failed to thrive in the long run, and that to go against it will not benefit us in the long run either. So when I say that we have an obligation, I mean an obligation to ourselves, to be true to our humanity, and to resist those arguments that would ultimately betray us.

K.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/23/2017 9:23:34 PM   
MakeM3Urs


Posts: 34
Joined: 12/28/2011
Status: offline 		Adopt the French system that takes half your income in taxes, but provides for all healthcare costs and retirement benefits.

< Message edited by MakeM3Urs -- 3/23/2017 9:25:53 PM >

(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/23/2017 9:26:04 PM   
tamaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeM3Urs

Everyone does have the "right" to healthcare. Never have I heard of healthcare being refused because the patient had no right to it. Healthcare is denied solely on economic issues. If you don't have money or adequate insurance then you can easily be refused. Some see that as a moral issue, but in this country the majority apparently doesn't. I am old enough to remember when healthcare was affordable out of pocket. Then Medicare came along and medical treatment costs skyrocketed since no healthcare professionals seemed to mind sticking it to the government. Ever since healthcare costs have risen at a pace that leaves other inflation far behind. As far as I am concerned healthcare should be entirely private with no government involvement at all. Either that or adopt the French system that takes half your wages in taxes, but provides for all healthcare and retirement benefits. Anything in between just incentivizes cost increases.


I think it is more that healthcare has become much more sophisticated and therefore much more expensive.

(in reply to MakeM3Urs)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/23/2017 9:37:36 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeM3Urs

Everyone does have the "right" to healthcare. Never have I heard of healthcare being refused because the patient had no right to it. Healthcare is denied solely on economic issues. If you don't have money or adequate insurance then you can easily be refused. Some see that as a moral issue, but in this country the majority apparently doesn't. I am old enough to remember when healthcare was affordable out of pocket. Then Medicare came along and medical treatment costs skyrocketed since no healthcare professionals seemed to mind sticking it to the government. Ever since healthcare costs have risen at a pace that leaves other inflation far behind. As far as I am concerned healthcare should be entirely private with no government involvement at all. Either that or adopt the French system that takes half your wages in taxes, but provides for all healthcare and retirement benefits. Anything in between just incentivizes cost increases.

I think it is more that healthcare has become much more sophisticated and therefore much more expensive.

Maybe, but didn't the same thing happen with tuition costs after low-interest student loans became available?

K.


(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/23/2017 9:47:03 PM   
tamaka


Posts: 5079
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeM3Urs

Everyone does have the "right" to healthcare. Never have I heard of healthcare being refused because the patient had no right to it. Healthcare is denied solely on economic issues. If you don't have money or adequate insurance then you can easily be refused. Some see that as a moral issue, but in this country the majority apparently doesn't. I am old enough to remember when healthcare was affordable out of pocket. Then Medicare came along and medical treatment costs skyrocketed since no healthcare professionals seemed to mind sticking it to the government. Ever since healthcare costs have risen at a pace that leaves other inflation far behind. As far as I am concerned healthcare should be entirely private with no government involvement at all. Either that or adopt the French system that takes half your wages in taxes, but provides for all healthcare and retirement benefits. Anything in between just incentivizes cost increases.

I think it is more that healthcare has become much more sophisticated and therefore much more expensive.

Maybe, but didn't the same thing happen with tuition costs after low-interest student loans became available?

K.




I guess so. Greed sucks.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/23/2017 10:00:50 PM   
MrRodgers


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Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeM3Urs

Adopt the French system that takes half your income in taxes, but provides for all healthcare costs and retirement benefits.

No, the German system. They have 106 (medical) and other service insurance companies competing for business. They have 3 levels of hospital care. Private for-profit care, govt. non-profit care and charitable non-profit care. No smart aware German ever comes to the US for medical care.

They have a payroll deduction much like we have for Medicare. If you are ever unemployed it is my understanding that once you are back to work, you must make up for when you weren't minus what was deducted from your unemployment insurance.

Germany pretty much has it down and they began national health care in the late 1800's.

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Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
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(in reply to MakeM3Urs)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/23/2017 10:07:24 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeM3Urs

Everyone does have the "right" to healthcare. Never have I heard of healthcare being refused because the patient had no right to it. Healthcare is denied solely on economic issues. If you don't have money or adequate insurance then you can easily be refused. Some see that as a moral issue, but in this country the majority apparently doesn't. I am old enough to remember when healthcare was affordable out of pocket. Then Medicare came along and medical treatment costs skyrocketed since no healthcare professionals seemed to mind sticking it to the government. Ever since healthcare costs have risen at a pace that leaves other inflation far behind. As far as I am concerned healthcare should be entirely private with no government involvement at all. Either that or adopt the French system that takes half your wages in taxes, but provides for all healthcare and retirement benefits. Anything in between just incentivizes cost increases.

I think it is more that healthcare has become much more sophisticated and therefore much more expensive.

Maybe, but didn't the same thing happen with tuition costs after low-interest student loans became available?

K.



As happens with far too many non-profits, when there is a benefit to it extended or increased by govt., the admin. (bureaucracy) sucks it up. That's how we get high 6 and low 7 fig. deans and pres, of universities.

In the medical world, a local hospital association (non-profit) had not only an admin. with a $1 million a year + salary but also had $31 million in 'non-profits.' This was No. Va, and around 1994 of I recall. Nice work if you can get it.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/23/2017 10:10:38 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: MakeM3Urs

Everyone does have the "right" to healthcare. Never have I heard of healthcare being refused because the patient had no right to it. Healthcare is denied solely on economic issues. If you don't have money or adequate insurance then you can easily be refused. Some see that as a moral issue, but in this country the majority apparently doesn't. I am old enough to remember when healthcare was affordable out of pocket. Then Medicare came along and medical treatment costs skyrocketed since no healthcare professionals seemed to mind sticking it to the government. Ever since healthcare costs have risen at a pace that leaves other inflation far behind. As far as I am concerned healthcare should be entirely private with no government involvement at all. Either that or adopt the French system that takes half your wages in taxes, but provides for all healthcare and retirement benefits. Anything in between just incentivizes cost increases.

/end

This was more interesting

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 12:07:46 AM   
tweakabelle


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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

almost anything that doesn't emphasize movement towards a free market is a non-starter for me. I haven't followed closely enough to say for sure but I suspect that's the freedom caucus folks' main objection too.

anything with the government involved is going to be Obamacare-lite. unfortunately, once you "give" something to someone, no matter even if its bad, taking it back is a challenge.


You know... in everything there has to be balance. Personally i don't think healthcare should be a money-making enterprise.


Finally at long long last you have said something intelligent. Now that you have discovered this standard please try and achieve it in the future.

Of course healthcare and money-making don't sit side by side easily. The object of healthcare is improving the patient's health. The object of a money making enterprise is making money.

Which makes discussion of healthcare a pretty straightforward proposition: If you believe healthcare is about improving people's health, then you will reject a free market healthcare system. If you believe healthcare should be about making money, then you will favour a free market healthcare system.

Oddly enough if you believe in healthcare systems that actually save money instead of enriching private interests at the expense of public health, then you will favour a national health insurance scheme operated by the Govt. This kind of system has proved itself to be the cheapest most efficient and best method of providing high quality healthcare to all the people again and again all over the world.

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 1:47:30 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeM3Urs

Adopt the French system that takes half your income in taxes, but provides for all healthcare costs and retirement benefits.

No, the German system.

FYI

World Health Organization’s Ranking of the World’s Health Systems

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan

Germany ranks 25th, and the U.S. comes in at 37th.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 2:06:17 AM   
NoirMetal


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Joined: 3/20/2017
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Isn't there a difference between medicare and medicaid?

yes,they work for different classes of people. I'm not totally versed in how each works yet-I have my insurance through my work.

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: ..."arch-conservatives rejected it" - 3/24/2017 4:39:42 AM   
bounty44


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
He's playing a philosophical game with you, one that could go on for decades.


if you were half as smart as you think you are, you would recognize im simply trying to get her to speak from an articulated and recognizable worldview.

stating its a "right" without being able to say how/why its a right doesn't make it so.

simply stating its "morally right" without being able say why, doesn't make it so.

saying its "common sense" doesn't make it so nor does it make it a right.

oh and, fuck you. if you wonder why I am not interested in talking with you, theres another example.


< Message edited by bounty44 -- 3/24/2017 4:40:10 AM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 80
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